OT: Coronavirus 2 - Covid Boogaloo

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MrazeksVengeance

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I mean, it's 25 old dudes who have nothing better to do and want to feel like they're doing something.

If you put it that way, I actually feel for them for obvious reasons.

And now, because of a glut of cheap oil/gas coming from Russia and Saudi Arabia and some gasoline manufacturers being exempted from using ethanol, there was an oversupply of ethanol so plants were shutting down before covid19 hit. Now, with people driving less, there is even less need for ethanol as an additive for gas. This is now leading to a shortage of CO2, which is a byproduct that is collected by certain specialized manufactures (food grade co2) and used for carbonation beer (as well as soda, selzer water) and also used in purification, and preservation of food.

Looks like we may have flat beer coming our way. :eek:

Maybe a chemist can help me out here. I thought Ethanol is essentially ethyl alcohol which is used in hand sanitizers. Is the ethanol used as a gasoline additive chemically different than that used in hand sanitizer? or is it just that ones used for hand sanitizer needs to have more purification/cleanliness standards and a plant can't just "convert over"?

EDIT: Found this:

The problem for the ethanol industry is that most plants make food-grade ethanol, one step below the highest pharmaceutical grade. But since the plants aren’t certified to comply with stringent production standards designed to protect quality of medicines, food ingredients and dietary supplements, the FDA doesn’t want the alcohol used for a product to be applied to the skin.

In addition, the alcohol is not denatured or mixed with a bitter additive to make it undrinkable. The FDA insists this step is “critical” because of cases of poisoning, sometimes fatal, among young children who have accidentally ingested hand sanitizers.

It is a question of purity because it is impossible to create pure ethanol by standard distillation.

I was going to get into the protests and all that but I’ve become seriously distracted by the Nova Scotia shooting today. It’s actually shocking which in today’s world is saying something.

I feel your pain.

We have relatively low gun violence when you take into account the number of weapons here. In December we had one of the largest shootings/mass murders in our national history.

Eight dead, including the killer. It was in a hospital.
Illegally held weapon. Needless to say, I was furious for a couple of days. I am very tribal when it comes to (not only) healthcare.
 

Lempo

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I don't understand why they're wearing masks. If they're wanting to reopen the state, then clearly they're not concerned about the virus. Yet they're wearing masks in even that small gathering.

I don't think they know what they're even protesting.

Maybe it's not really about the corona at all, but they feel this is a prime opportunity to make a point about the 2nd Amendment when the gubernment now has unarguably taken away their freedoms. You can be worried of contracting coronavirus and at the same time even more worried about the medicine that the government has in for you than the actual sickness.

In my country the corona restrictions actually lauched a serious discussion on the constitutional rights and the ad hoc limitiations of them. The Uusimaa province isolation was ended last week precisely on the legal grounds because it was not "absolutely necessary" measure as the Emergency Powers legislation expects it to be. I'm certain there will be plenty to say about the Uusimaa isolation afterwards, because the application of the measure do look a bit like the government capitulated in face of the popular demand and did a thang at least partly because of the political optics.

The most scary part was that there was no shortage of things what people in actual high positions actually were genuinely proposing to be restricted from the citizens with this newly-obtained authority. Helsinki director of social and health issues was calling for alcohol sales ban for the duration of the emergency situation, and got a twitter thumbs-up from an MP who on her part called for also a tobacco sales ban, because it's "worrisome that some many still smokes, it adds to the corona risk and isn't good for anyone even otherwise".

The people calling for everyone to unquestioningly heed what the politically expedient leaders order them to do, regardless of the constitutional rights effected by it, are really making the case for these guys.

Sadly there are people out there who respect your AK-47 derivative more than your legal rights. Some of those people find their way into high offices where they can, either on a personal whim or from an ideological starting point, choose not to respect one or more of your most basic rights.
 
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Sens1Canes2

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Maybe it's not really about the corona at all, but they feel this is a prime opportunity to make a point about the 2nd Amendment when the gubernment now has unarguably taken away their freedoms. You can be worried of contracting coronavirus and at the same time even more worried about the medicine that the government has in for you than the actual sickness.

In my country the corona restrictions actually lauched a serious discussion on the constitutional rights and the ad hoc limitiations of them. The Uusimaa province isolation was ended last week precisely on the legal grounds because it was not "absolutely necessary" measure as the Emergency Powers legislation expects it to be. I'm certain there will be plenty to say about the Uusimaa isolation afterwards, because the application of the measure do look a bit like the government capitulated in face of the popular demand and did a thang at least partly because of the political optics.

The most scary part was that there was no shortage of things what people in actual high positions actually were genuinely proposing to be restricted from the citizens with this newly-obtained authority. Helsinki director of social and health issues was calling for alcohol sales ban for the duration of the emergency situation, and got a twitter thumbs-up from an MP who on her part called for also a tobacco sales ban, because it's "worrisome that some many still smokes, it adds to the corona risk and isn't good for anyone even otherwise".

The people calling for everyone to unquestioningly heed what the politically expedient leaders order them to do, regardless of the constitutional rights effected by it, are really making the case for these guys.

Sadly there are people out there who respect your AK-47 derivative more than your legal rights. Some of those people find their way into high offices where they can, either on a personal whim or from an ideological starting point, choose not to respect one or more of your most basic rights.
That’s actually a pretty good post.
 

Blueline Bomber

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Maybe it's not really about the corona at all, but they feel this is a prime opportunity to make a point about the 2nd Amendment when the gubernment now has unarguably taken away their freedoms. You can be worried of contracting coronavirus and at the same time even more worried about the medicine that the government has in for you than the actual sickness.

In my country the corona restrictions actually lauched a serious discussion on the constitutional rights and the ad hoc limitiations of them. The Uusimaa province isolation was ended last week precisely on the legal grounds because it was not "absolutely necessary" measure as the Emergency Powers legislation expects it to be. I'm certain there will be plenty to say about the Uusimaa isolation afterwards, because the application of the measure do look a bit like the government capitulated in face of the popular demand and did a thang at least partly because of the political optics.

The most scary part was that there was no shortage of things what people in actual high positions actually were genuinely proposing to be restricted from the citizens with this newly-obtained authority. Helsinki director of social and health issues was calling for alcohol sales ban for the duration of the emergency situation, and got a twitter thumbs-up from an MP who on her part called for also a tobacco sales ban, because it's "worrisome that some many still smokes, it adds to the corona risk and isn't good for anyone even otherwise".

The people calling for everyone to unquestioningly heed what the politically expedient leaders order them to do, regardless of the constitutional rights effected by it, are really making the case for these guys.

Sadly there are people out there who respect your AK-47 derivative more than your legal rights. Some of those people find their way into high offices where they can, either on a personal whim or from an ideological starting point, choose not to respect one or more of your most basic rights.

Our country is similar in many ways, except the things that the government is trying to sneak by while everyone is distracted by Corona are more along the lines of indefinitely detaining someone without trial:
DOJ seeks new emergency powers amid coronavirus pandemic

Or a ban on abortions:
https://newsradiowrva.radio.com/blogs/jeff-katz/pelosi-tried-sneak-taxpayer-funded-abortions-corona-bill

O
r simply complete access to anything you put on the Internet:
Don't be fooled, experts warn, America's anti-child-abuse EARN IT Act could burn encryption to the ground

I get the stance that shitty politicians will do shitty things to benefit themselves in the times of crisis. And that’s certainly something worth protesting and something to be denounced and called out when it happens. But that’s something that can just as easily be done online or through other means than meeting in person.

These Reopen State protests are doing nothing beneficial and are actively harming the efforts being made to combat the virus, especially if the idiots in charge ACTUALLY reopen states too early. I mean, for god sakes, why in the hell would you attempt to block hospitals in the time of a pandemic?! That’s taking idiocy to dangerous levels.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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Sep 6, 2006
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Maybe it's not really about the corona at all, but they feel this is a prime opportunity to make a point about the 2nd Amendment when the gubernment now has unarguably taken away their freedoms. You can be worried of contracting coronavirus and at the same time even more worried about the medicine that the government has in for you than the actual sickness.

In my country the corona restrictions actually lauched a serious discussion on the constitutional rights and the ad hoc limitiations of them. The Uusimaa province isolation was ended last week precisely on the legal grounds because it was not "absolutely necessary" measure as the Emergency Powers legislation expects it to be. I'm certain there will be plenty to say about the Uusimaa isolation afterwards, because the application of the measure do look a bit like the government capitulated in face of the popular demand and did a thang at least partly because of the political optics.

The most scary part was that there was no shortage of things what people in actual high positions actually were genuinely proposing to be restricted from the citizens with this newly-obtained authority. Helsinki director of social and health issues was calling for alcohol sales ban for the duration of the emergency situation, and got a twitter thumbs-up from an MP who on her part called for also a tobacco sales ban, because it's "worrisome that some many still smokes, it adds to the corona risk and isn't good for anyone even otherwise".

The people calling for everyone to unquestioningly heed what the politically expedient leaders order them to do, regardless of the constitutional rights effected by it, are really making the case for these guys.

Sadly there are people out there who respect your AK-47 derivative more than your legal rights. Some of those people find their way into high offices where they can, either on a personal whim or from an ideological starting point, choose not to respect one or more of your most basic rights.

There may be some of that going on. I tend to think more of it is they wanted a reaction and to get more publicity (nothing really wrong with that), which showing up with AR-15s accomplishes. Most protesters want more publicity as what good is a protest if nobody covers it? I guarantee you that picture would have never even come to my attention (was sent to me by a relative in Michigan) if there were 30 or so young-middle age white dudes holding signs and not guns. Heck, honestly, the main reason I even posted it was to see what reaction it would get.

With the supreme court conservative (and will be for some time), the president conservative (and he'll likely win again), and the senate conservative, the chances of the 2nd amendment being changed in the US is virtually non-existent. Still, these are unprecedented times where people are being asked/forced to do things they aren't accustomed to, so seeing some protests about rights is not unexpected.

Also, some people just like to protest. I lived in a city up north many years back and there were protests downtown almost every weekend. It didn't take long to realize there were a dozen or so people that were at every protest, regardless of the issue.
 
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sabremike

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The following is not intended to be an argument for or against either the lockdowns or protests but instead an example of why people should use critical thinking when reading glaring headlines:

I saw someone on Facebook post an article on how cases have spiked in Kentucky since the protests. On the surface that is presented as irrefutable proof that the protesters caused it. But then I look up the article and there are details missing. It is well known that states are increasing the levels of testing, so if in the past week the number of people tested spiked then it would be no surprise that the number of confirmed cases would as well. That data was not provided. And the protest was in the state capital with roughly 200 people, so what is the breakdown of new cases by city/region? If they are almost all in that city then that would be evidence to support the claim yet I did not see that data in the article. And again: this is not a pro/con argument on the subject, it is a call for people to not just take headlines of any type at face value and to always examine them.
 
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Boom Boom Apathy

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The following is not intended to be an argument for or against either the lockdowns or protests but instead an example of why people should use critical thinking when reading glaring headlines:

I saw someone on Facebook post an article on how cases have spiked in Kentucky since the protests. On the surface that is presented as irrefutable proof that the protesters caused it. But then I look up the article and there are details missing. It is well known that states are increasing the levels of testing, so if in the past week the number of people tested spiked then it would be no surprise that the number of confirmed cases would as well. That data was not provided. And the protest was in the state capital with roughly 200 people, so what is the breakdown of new cases by city/region? If they are almost all in that city then that would be evidence to support the claim yet I did not see that data in the article. And again: this is not a pro/con argument on the subject, it is a call for people to not just take headlines of any type at face value and to always examine them.

That's the problem right there.
 

Blueline Bomber

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If it's the article I'm thinking of, the headline said something like the numbers have spiked since the protests, but the actual article itself talks about how the greatest growth was in nursing homes and how the spike could just as easily be attributed to people gathering for Easter.

It's misleading on purpose.
 

Lempo

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There may be some of that going on. I tend to think more of it is they wanted a reaction and to get more publicity (nothing really wrong with that), which showing up with AR-15s accomplishes. Most protesters want more publicity as what good is a protest if nobody covers it? I guarantee you that picture would have never even come to my attention (was sent to me by a relative in Michigan) if there were 30 or so young-middle age white dudes holding signs and not guns. Heck, honestly, the main reason I even posted it was to see what reaction it would get.

With the supreme court conservative (and will be for some time), the president conservative (and he'll likely win again), and the senate conservative, the chances of the 2nd amendment being changed in the US is virtually non-existent. Still, these are unprecedented times where people are being asked/forced to do things they aren't accustomed to, so seeing some protests about rights is not unexpected.

Also, some people just like to protest. I lived in a city up north many years back and there were protests downtown almost every weekend. It didn't take long to realize there were a dozen or so people that were at every protest, regardless of the issue.
I kind of think that bringing the arms had an intended implication that "see how they are not bringing a fire truck to hose us away from here like they might some unarmed sign post guys".
 

MinJaBen

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A new numbers/trend update for those that are interested. Again, from one of the professors here at Duke who is just tracking the numbers:

Hi Everyone,
Finally what appears to be a real trend! The number of new cases per day in the US is clearly trending downward, which be seen in Fig. 1, especially in the 5-day moving average (Fig.1, right). And this trend has persisted for 12 days since the peak on day 38 (7 April). I’m actually the media hasn’t made more of this. Of course, the trend could be reversed easily, especially if some governors threatening to “open up” their states carry through with it. We’ll just have to wait and see. But this trend is really good news.
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Fig. 1
Because of this trend, I am pretty confident about using statistical fits to project when the danger from the first wave of infections is likely to have passed. The modified logistic fits the data very well (Fig. 2, left). Projections from the fitted line (Fig. 2, right) indicate that the cumulative number of cases in the US should level off around days 50-60 (19-29 April). This seems a bit optimistic. This projection also indicates that the total number of US cases associated with the first wave of infections will be about 1 million.
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Fig. 2
As we’ve seen before, another way of projecting the end of the first wave is to fit the relationship between proportion new cases and day, which is still fit well by an exponential decay (Fig. 3, left). The projected number of new cases from this fit (Fig. 3, right), decays to less than 5,000 (from a peak of 34700) on day 73 (12 May), and less than 2470 (one tenth peak—horizontal line on graph) on day 77 (16 May). This is about 2 weeks later than projected by the logistic fit, and is probably more reasonable. But it still means that the first wave of infections should essentially be past by the second week in May—barring, of course, a resurgence. Note also that even a couple thousand new cases per day could seed a new wave if we do not maintain our social distancing well into June, unless we ramp up testing substantially.
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Fig. 3
North Carolina seems to be lagging behind the US trends. The number of new NC cases per day seems to have plateaued (Fig. 4). While past day 31 there is a slight trend for an increase (number of new cases increases by 4 per day), this trend is nowhere near being statistically significant, although during this time the numbers are quite volatile. So the good news is that the number of new cases per day doesn’t seem to be increasing, but the bad news is that it doesn’t seem to be decreasing yet. This indicates that the peak for NC is at least 10 days behind the US peak. That is perhaps not surprising, given that NC started later than places like NY.
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Fig. 4
Because there is no evidence of a decline in new cases, I will not make projections based on a logistic fit to cumulative number of cases. However, because the proportion new cases in NC still fits an exponential decay well (Fig. 5), I will make some projections from this. The number of new cases is expected to fall below 10% of peak number on day 71 (10 May) and below 5% of peak number on day 79 (18 May). These dates are comparable to those projected for the US. So in NC, we can expect the first wave to have passed by the second week in May. Note that this is 2-3 weeks later than my earliest projections.
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Fig. 5
The situation with US deaths is somewhat promising (Fig. 6). The huge spike in new deaths on day 45 makes it difficult to say much with confidence. If we ignore that one data point, then starting at day 38 there is a plateauing (slight increase of number of new deaths of 10 per day, but this is not statistically significant. That is promising, but no evidence that the number of new deaths per day is actually decreasing. I am making no projections about new deaths because these haven’t yet started to decrease.
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Fig. 6
Finally, I have not up until today said anything about deaths in NC. However, I am prompted to do so by some news stories yesterday claiming that NC has peaked in new deaths per day and that number is actually declining. This highly irresponsible claim was based on just 4 days of data, starting with a spike in number of new deaths on 17 April. One should never make this kind of claim based on only twodata points beyond the purported peak. And this is borne out by the subsequent data that came in for April 20:
April 16 17 18 19 20
No. new deaths 17 26 10 9 20
Clearly another spike that erases the supposed trend.
Stay safe, all!
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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I kind of think that bringing the arms had an intended implication that "see how they are not bringing a fire truck to hose us away from here like they might some unarmed sign post guys".

I think maybe this sheds more light on "why guys showed up with guns" than anything.

Who is behind the coronavirus social distancing protests?

Protests across the Midwest were driven by Facebook groups created by the Dorr family of conservative activists. Ben Dorr is the leader of the Minnesota Gun rights organization and, along with his brothers, Chris and Aaron, has promoted Facebook groups protesting the guidelines. According to the Washington Post, roughly 200,000 people are members of groups targeting stay-at-home orders in Wisconsin, Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York. Dorr was a primary organizer for Monday’s rally in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania’s capital.

Wisconsinites Against Excessive Quarantine was created on Wednesday by Ben Dorr. Christopher Dorr is the creator of Pennsylvanians Against Excessive Quarantine as well as Ohioans Against Excessive Quarantine. Aaron Dorr is the creator of New Yorkers Against Excessive Quarantine. The Dorrs, along with their father, Paul, have been been active in a number of political battles over the years,
 
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Anton Dubinchuk

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Is it too early to open it up this week? Probably. But the actual plan for opening the country up is pretty sound, if states follow it we're good.

I have no idea why Georgia's opening up when one of the stage gates to become a "Phase 1" area is 14 days of decreasing cases, while Friday (when we are scheduled to open up incrementally) will only be 10. Seems like we should follow the plan to the letter and not go off script. I guess it's an interpretation of "downward trajectory" in a 14-day period. Does that mean it has to be downward the whole time? Or a clear trend has to be seen that it "ends" the 14 day period downward. Unsure, though I'd prefer the former.

The other criteria is "treat all patients without crisis care", which I believe Georgia is fine with right now.

The "Hammer and the Dance" article that was posted here awhile back does imply a dance at some point. The "hammer" has gone on for almost a month. We are getting to the point where we can indeed open up incrementally (I don't think we're there yet, but next week? I could see it). If we don't continue to meet the criteria, we go back to shutdown. People are acting like it's the apocalypse in Georgia, when really it's kinda just dipping the toe in the water.
 
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Canes

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Is it too early to open it up this week? Probably. But the actual plan for opening the country up is pretty sound, if states follow it we're good.

I have no idea why Georgia's opening up when one of the stage gates to become a "Phase 1" area is 14 days of decreasing cases, while Friday (when we are scheduled to open up incrementally) will only be 10. Seems like we should follow the plan to the letter and not go off script. I guess it's an interpretation of "downward trajectory" in a 14-day period. Does that mean it has to be downward the whole time? Or a clear trend has to be seen that it "ends" the 14 day period downward. Unsure, though I'd prefer the former.

The other criteria is "treat all patients without crisis care", which I believe Georgia is fine with right now.

The "Hammer and the Dance" article that was posted here awhile back does imply a dance at some point. The "hammer" has gone on for almost a month. We are getting to the point where we can indeed open up incrementally (I don't think we're there yet, but next week? I could see it). If we don't continue to meet the criteria, we go back to shutdown. People are acting like it's the apocalypse in Georgia, when really it's kinda just dipping the toe in the water.
Brian "I Didn't Know Coronavirus Is Contagious Even Without Showing Symptoms" Kemp obviously doesn't give a shit about any guidelines. And I wouldn't say Georgia is dipping their toes in the water when they plan on opening gyms and dine-in restaurants next week. Even South Carolina's governor, Henry McMaster (who makes Kemp look like a Rhodes Scholar in comparison) isn't going that far.
 

Anton Dubinchuk

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Brian "I Didn't Know Coronavirus Is Contagious Even Without Showing Symptoms" Kemp obviously doesn't give a shit about any guidelines. And I wouldn't say Georgia is dipping their toes in the water when they plan on opening gyms and dine-in restaurants next week. Even South Carolina's governor, Henry McMaster (who makes Kemp look like a Rhodes Scholar in comparison) isn't going that far.

That is literally Phase 1 as laid out in the federal guidelines. They have to abide by strict standards when opening or they risk being shut down.
 
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Anton Dubinchuk

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All I'm saying is that he's opening up some business sectors that even the lesser states adjacent to him aren't opening right now.

I understand, and all I’m saying is that that’s a truism. The announcement was that Georgia will be the first state to move to Phase 1, so it makes sense that they will be the first state to do Phase 1-y things like open up certain business sectors.

I’m with you, like I said in my original post I think next Friday would have me feeling a lot better than this Friday. Especially living in the heart of Atlanta with a pregnant wife who I’ve grown quite fond of. But it will be interesting to see. And yes - it’s dipping the toe in the water. If things get out of hand, the guideline is to shut down again. Someone, at some point, is going to have to be the first to see how actually social distancing (and not just locking down) is going to play out.
 
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GoldiFox

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That is literally Phase 1 as laid out in the federal guidelines. They have to abide by strict standards when opening or they risk being shut down.

Per Federal Regulations, Phase 1 is only supposed to be enacted when COVID cases in the state have on a downward trajectory for 14 straight days. Cases in Georgia are still increasing daily.

By breaking this regulation the DHS head has already said that Georgia forfeits Federal assistance if/when they have a second outbreak and need to shut down again.
 
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Anton Dubinchuk

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I have no idea why Georgia's opening up when one of the stage gates to become a "Phase 1" area is 14 days of decreasing cases, while Friday (when we are scheduled to open up incrementally) will only be 10. Seems like we should follow the plan to the letter and not go off script. I guess it's an interpretation of "downward trajectory" in a 14-day period. Does that mean it has to be downward the whole time? Or a clear trend has to be seen that it "ends" the 14 day period downward. Unsure, though I'd prefer the former.

Per Federal Regulations, Phase 1 is only supposed to be enacted when COVID cases in the state have begun to decline for 14 straight days. Cases in Georgia are still increasing daily.

Agreed with your general point.

However, based on the latest info reported by Georgia, it looks like there's been a steady-ish decline for ~10 days, so I'm not sure where you were getting your info.

Georgia Department of Public Health COVID-19 Daily Status Report ("Daily Confirmed COVID-19 Cases" chart)

Georgia.PNG


Additionally, the exact wording of the guideline is:

"Downward trajectory of documented cases within a 14-day period
OR
Downward trajectory of positive tests as a percent of total tests within a 14-day period (flat or increasing volume of tests)"

So I'm not sure if that's to be interpreted as "active cases" or "new cases", if using the former benchmark.



Once again, I think it's probably a week too early. But certainly not the apocalypse many are treating it as.
 
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sabremike

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Hope lives. I hope his findings are accurate that most aren't looking for a culture war.

One of the big lessons of the past several years is that polls are often very unreliable whether it's due to people being uncomfortable saying what they really think or who are just trolling.
 
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hblueridgegal

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In this case, it essentially said that senior citizens aren’t willing to die for the cause and are disappointed in the response to protect them. Given that the obituary pages are filled with their neighbors’ faces and the virus is sweeping through nursing homes and assisted living facilities, they’re the ones primarily paying the ultimate price. Maybe it’s a wake up call for some.
 

My Special Purpose

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There may be some of that going on. I tend to think more of it is they wanted a reaction and to get more publicity (nothing really wrong with that), which showing up with AR-15s accomplishes. Most protesters want more publicity as what good is a protest if nobody covers it? I guarantee you that picture would have never even come to my attention (was sent to me by a relative in Michigan) if there were 30 or so young-middle age white dudes holding signs and not guns. Heck, honestly, the main reason I even posted it was to see what reaction it would get.

I have a theory here that the protests are actually a trial balloon being floated by the administration. They asked themselves, "who would go outside in a pandemic?" Protesters. "How can we get them to go outside in a pandemic?" The Second Amendment. Let's get a bunch of Second Amendment protesters outside and see what happens. If they all get sick and die, it's a bad time to talk about re-opening. If they're fine, we have some degree of proof.

As for re-opening, and the 10-days of declining cases edict set forth by the administration, how do we know? There's no testing. Testing trials in counties around the country are showing that somewhere between 25 and 50 times more people are COVID-positive than are being reported. It's entirely possible -- if not probable -- that the true number of COVID-positive cases in the U.S. is in the tens of millions, and not barely touching one million.

The whole point of everything is that we're blind. We don't know how deadly this is, we don't know how contagious it is, we don't know how widespread it is, and we can't make accurate assessments and predictions because *we're not testing*. Everything is guesswork, and dead people are just test subjects. It's embarrassing to be American right now.
 
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