OT: Coronavirus 2 - Covid Boogaloo

[Surrounded By Ahos]

Where did you hear that? What is this treatment that works?

I stand by my previous ‘drink bleach and you won’t have to worry about the corona virus’ diagnosis.

People in healthcare are notoriously bad with computers outside of the primary programs they use every day.

I think you could scale this back to just people. I recently had to explain to a coworker how control/alt/delete works. She thought I was a computer wizard after.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Because their media is government controlled and they might be cool with eldercide.

Bullshit.

Know anyone from China? Talked with any Chinese folks?

A good friend of mine was on the ground in Jiangsu province, which is the home of Nanjing and 10 other cities with population of over a million people. He was there through the end of January, at which point he returned to his home in the UK and self-quarantined for six weeks.

The strategy behind fighting the Coronavirus is actually quite straightforward. The goal is to reduce the R0 of the virus to below one. If you accomplish that goal, you win. Pretty much all of Asia learned that lesson by fighting against SARS.

You want to know the real difference between us and China? The real difference is that the Chinese are far more collectivist than individualistic, and they take this shit seriously at every level of society. They didn't beat the virus by leaving old people to die. They didn't beat the virus by hiding facts and hoping it would go away. They beat it by making rules and sticking to those rules, together, as an entire society.

They're doing whatever it takes to reduce R0 to <1, and we're not. That's the difference. That's it.

What are they doing that we're not doing?

* They have drones flying in public reminding people not to gather in public. They have banners everywhere reminding people not to gather in public.
* They wear masks. Everywhere.
* They take people's temperatures with no-touch thermometers when they go into any store, or when they get on public transit, or even when they drive through various checkpoints around town.
* They put boxes of tissue paper in elevators so that people can use the tissues to touch the elevator buttons.
* They track public movement with QR codes. Yes, that means that the government knows where you are and can track you.
* They have public maps of precisely where infections have been identified, that anyone can pull up on their cell phone, and if too many of those cases appear in one area, they surround the streets to that area with physical barriers and strictly control entrances and exits.
* They mandate that any business that wants to be open must stock a certain amount of anti-virus goods: masks, single-use gloves, no-touch thermometers, disinfectants of all kinds.
* And a million other little things.

Why are we not doing that?

Because we don't trust government. Because have demonstrated again and again that we are unwilling, or unable, to put aside our personal freedoms for a greater good. And now we're gonna pay for it.

All the while talking mad ignorant shit about Chinese people and the Chinese government, and making fun of people who stay home and wear masks in public.

Seriously, watch this video. And then tell me if you think American society has its shit together like China does.

 

[toastmasterbone]

I thought that might be the drug you were referring to with your original post. There are some ongoing studies to look at the efficacy of using it offlable to treat the COVID-19. One of the earliest got a lot of peoples hopes up, but it was very small and had some significant flaws. It came out of Europe and showed in a group of twenty patients that there was a substantial reduction in the number of virus particles in the nose after 6 days of the patients taking the drug compared to the control group. But they only followed for six days. And over those six days, the mortality rate was 4%...which is actually a little higher than what is seen in most of the world. Larger numbers of treated patients will be needed to see if this actually was an anomaly, only affects viral shedding and not the mortality of the patients, or is truly a good treatment going forward.

Precisely. I'm not a doctor but have worked as a medical writer for the past 25 years (I'm the guy who writes the results of drug trials that we then send to the FDA and worldwide regulatory agencies as huge applications, in addition, I get to write the labels that fold up in a brilliant rectangular origami pattern for you, the consumer, to read). I don't have firsthand knowledge of chloroquine, but I can tell you this much: keep that shit away from me unless I'm critically ill and the FDA says to drop a couple on me for compassionate use (the idea being, "it might kill him, but he's going to die anyway, so we're hoping something pretty cool happens"). I worked on Ebola vaccine studies during the Western African epidemic, and our vaccine had 100% effectiveness. This was 2 years ago, and we finally got approval 5 or 6 months ago. This stuff takes time and painstaking medical review to decidedly determine the befit:risk ratio, and anecdotal results from off-label use of these drugs does not equal clinical testing in a randomized, controlled environment. Could the FDA ramp up testing of something promising ("fast-track")? Sure. But I wouldn't be advocating an antimalarial (for a vector-borne condition) to treat a group whose illness originates as a viral respiratory condition until I've got huge sample sizes from controlled trials of patients with severe respiratory illness. It could work, but until real testing is done, I believe that "risky as f---" is the medical term that virologists use to describe such treatment. I think that's the Latin term.

 

[The Stranger]

Bullshit.

Know anyone from China? Talked with any Chinese folks?

A good friend of mine was on the ground in Jiangsu province, which is the home of Nanjing and 10 other cities with population of over a million people. He was there through the end of January, at which point he returned to his home in the UK and self-quarantined for six weeks.

The strategy behind fighting the Coronavirus is actually quite straightforward. The goal is to reduce the R0 of the virus to below one. If you accomplish that goal, you win. Pretty much all of Asia learned that lesson by fighting against SARS.

You want to know the real difference between us and China? The real difference is that the Chinese are far more collectivist than individualistic, and they take this shit seriously at every level of society. They didn't beat the virus by leaving old people to die. They didn't beat the virus by hiding facts and hoping it would go away. They beat it by making rules and sticking to those rules, together, as an entire society.

They're doing whatever it takes to reduce R0 to <1, and we're not. That's the difference. That's it.

What are they doing that we're not doing?

* They have drones flying in public reminding people not to gather in public. They have banners everywhere reminding people not to gather in public.
* They wear masks. Everywhere.
* They take people's temperatures with no-touch thermometers when they go into any store, or when they get on public transit, or even when they drive through various checkpoints around town.
* They put boxes of tissue paper in elevators so that people can use the tissues to touch the elevator buttons.
* They track public movement with QR codes. Yes, that means that the government knows where you are and can track you.
* They have public maps of precisely where infections have been identified, that anyone can pull up on their cell phone, and if too many of those cases appear in one area, they surround the streets to that area with physical barriers and strictly control entrances and exits.
* They mandate that any business that wants to be open must stock a certain amount of anti-virus goods: masks, single-use gloves, no-touch thermometers, disinfectants of all kinds.
* And a million other little things.

Why are we not doing that?

Because we don't trust government. Because have demonstrated again and again that we are unwilling, or unable, to put aside our personal freedoms for a greater good. And now we're gonna pay for it.

All the while talking mad ignorant shit about Chinese people and the Chinese government, and making fun of people who stay home and wear masks in public.

Seriously, watch this video. And then tell me if you think American society has its shit together like China does.

No doubt China is on point with their methods...at least what is demonstrated in that video. We should learn some best practices from them.

No doubt an individualistic based society with a relatively high level of personal freedoms presents challenges during a pandemic. You can't decouple personal freedom from personal responsibility.

I'd still easily prefer to live in a free society.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

No doubt China is on point with their methods...at least what is demonstrated in that video. We should learn some best practices from them.

No doubt an individualistic based society with a relatively high level of personal freedoms presents challenges during a pandemic. You can't decouple personal freedom from personal responsibility.

I'd still easily prefer to live in a free society.

Your right to think so. But then I would ask:

Have you ever lived in any society other than this one?

I think you'd be quite surprised to discover the similarities in daily life between a Chinese citizen and an American citizen and a Finnish citizen and a German citizen.

Perhaps we are not as free as we seem to think.

Anyway, stop talking shit about China that isn't true.

 

[The Stranger]

Your right to think so. But then I would ask:

Have you ever lived in any society other than this one?

I think you'd be quite surprised to discover the similarities in daily life between a Chinese citizen and an American citizen and a Finnish citizen and a German citizen.

Perhaps we are not as free as we seem to think.

Anyway, stop talking shit about China that isn't true.

I've traveled a decent amount, but never lived outside of North America.

So my opinion on the subject is academic/theoretical based on the knowledge of personal freedoms that I would no longer have...not based on personal experience.

 

[MinJaBen]

The Weather Channel and IBM have setup a live, interactive map of the US with CORVID-9 data down to the county level.

Interactive US Map

 

[Canes]

Wow, some massive kool-aid drinking about China.

China didn’t hide facts and hope it would go away? I’m sure the doctor who discovered covid-19 and then was admonished for trying to share it before he died would agree. The fact China waited so long before acting is a major reason it has spread so far and wide. Yes, other countries screwed up their response but that doesn’t absolve China in the slightest.

Also the Chinese may be more “collectivist” but only under threat of the government disappearing them and their entire families Uyghur style if they don’t comply. If you’re willing to put up with those costs, maybe you should move there.

I say this as someone probably left of Noam Chomsky.

 

[Roboturner913]

We're so free in America, we're gonna go back to our shitty jobs so we can help save Wall Street, and if the olds die, well, that's just too bad.

That's how f***ing free we are.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

The Weather Channel and IBM have setup a live, interactive map of the US with CORVID-9 data down to the county level.

Interactive US Map

Is this like a movie about COVID where Eddie Murphy plays all the roles?

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Wow, some massive kool-aid drinking about China.

China didn’t hide facts and hope it would go away? I’m sure the doctor who discovered covid-19 and then was admonished for trying to share it before he died would agree. The fact China waited so long before acting is a major reason it has spread so far and wide. Yes, other countries screwed up their response but that doesn’t absolve China in the slightest.

Also the Chinese may be more “collectivist” but only under threat of the government disappearing them and their entire families Uyghur style if they don’t comply. If you’re willing to put up with those costs, maybe you should move there.

I say this as someone probably left of Noam Chomsky.

China is such a collectivist society, the government freely collects the organs from poor folks to help the collective rich folks. Fantastically collective over there. They will collectively tell you that the government doesnt own the media or bad doesnt happen because has the government told them not to tell or their family is collectively round up.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

We're so free in America, we're gonna go back to our shitty jobs so we can help save Wall Street, and if the olds die, well, that's just too bad.

That's how f***ing free we are.

this version of free is a hell of a lot better than many alternatives. Not perfect but much better.

 

[MinJaBen]

Liberty University is bringing all of their students back from spring break. Some spectacular stupid going on there.

 

[The Stranger]

We're so free in America, we're gonna go back to our shitty jobs so we can help save Wall Street, and if the olds die, well, that's just too bad.

That's how f***ing free we are.

You've mentioned this a couple times now...letting old/vulnerable people die. What am I not aware of?

To the best of my knowledge, at a country level we're largely shutdown...government and business in alignment..at great economic expense...in an effort to help save vulnerable folks.

 

[Lempo]

We're so free in America, we're gonna go back to our shitty jobs so we can help save Wall Street, and if the olds die, well, that's just too bad.

That's how f***ing free we are.

There's a liberty bell in every church.

 

[Roboturner913]

this version of free is a hell of a lot better than many alternatives. Not perfect but much better.

Just go out to the dumpster and eat the garbage! And remember how lucky you are! Some people don't get any garbage to eat at all!

 

[Roboturner913]

You've mentioned this a couple times now...letting old/vulnerable people die. What am I not aware of?

To the best of my knowledge, at a country level we're largely shutdown...government and business in alignment..at great economic expense...in an effort to help save vulnerable folks.

Trump wants to 'open' the economy by Easter despite the deadly threat of coronavirus

“We’re opening up this incredible country. Because we have to do that. I would love to have it open by Easter,” Trump said.

“I would love to have that. It’s such an important day for other reasons, but I’d love to make it an important day for this. I would love to have the country opened up, and rarin’ to go by Easter.”

Texas' lieutenant governor suggests grandparents are willing to die for US economy

The lieutenant governor of Texas argued in an interview on Fox News Monday night that the United States should go back to work, saying grandparents like him don’t want to sacrifice the country’s economy during the coronavirus crisis.

 

[Roboturner913]

Liberty University is bringing all of their students back from spring break. Some spectacular stupid going on there.

 

[hblueridgegal]

You've mentioned this a couple times now...letting old/vulnerable people die. What am I not aware of?

To the best of my knowledge, at a country level we're largely shutdown...government and business in alignment..at great economic expense...in an effort to help save vulnerable folks.

A quick Google of “Die for the Dow” or
#notdyingforwallstreet might provide some news. There is some measured and healthy debate happening mixed in with some reactionary responses as well. Then again, voicing ideas out loud such as offering up Grandma as a sacrifice to save the economy is rather shocking and provocative for most people.

 

[MinJaBen]

Texas' lieutenant governor suggests grandparents are willing to die for US economy

The lieutenant governor of Texas argued in an interview on Fox News Monday night that the United States should go back to work, saying grandparents like him don’t want to sacrifice the country’s economy during the coronavirus crisis.

But isn't that the same as "death panels"?

 

[Roboturner913]

Just think of the stimulus to the funeral home industry! Families all over America buying beautiful $5,000 coffins to bury their loved ones. It'll be terrific

 

[Lempo]

Then again, voicing ideas out loud such as offering up Grandma as a sacrifice to save the economy is rather shocking and provocative for most people.

Back in the old days they used to offer a kid or a virgin to ensure a bountyful harvest. It's really like Donnie has really bargained for a Deal here.

 

[hblueridgegal]

Hope it was worth it and the dentist in question acted on more research than a sound byte from an imbecile.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Wow, some massive kool-aid drinking about China.

China didn’t hide facts and hope it would go away? I’m sure the doctor who discovered covid-19 and then was admonished for trying to share it before he died would agree. The fact China waited so long before acting is a major reason it has spread so far and wide. Yes, other countries screwed up their response but that doesn’t absolve China in the slightest.

Also the Chinese may be more “collectivist” but only under threat of the government disappearing them and their entire families Uyghur style if they don’t comply. If you’re willing to put up with those costs, maybe you should move there.

I say this as someone probably left of Noam Chomsky.

Yes. China screwed up their initial response, no doubt. And yes, they admonished a doctor for trying to spread the early word. But when it became obvious that it was time to get their asses in gear, that's exactly what they did -- and more than that, they laid out a playbook to be followed.

And what are we doing? The president is now telling people "wrap it up by Easter so we can get the economy back on track." You think that's gonna work? Really?

And as someone left of Noam Chomsky, you must surely understand that America differs only in who it chooses to disappear and why, right? And that the US has 655 imprisoned persons per 100,000 people, while China, even factoring in its prison camps, only has 164 imprisoned persons per 100,000 people?

Also note: Italy and the UK are now threatening lockdown non-compliance with fines and/or imprisonment. If we end up with the same numbers, we'll end up with the same threat of fines and/or imprisonment.

China is no paradise, and there's plenty of stuff about China that's hella f***ed up. But Americans drink a hell of a lot of America-flavored kool-aid, and the "move there if you love it so much" argument is nonsense. Recognize what China does well and figure out how to learn from it, instead of saying "CHINA BAD".

 

[The Stranger]

Trump wants to 'open' the economy by Easter despite the deadly threat of coronavirus

“We’re opening up this incredible country. Because we have to do that. I would love to have it open by Easter,” Trump said.

“I would love to have that. It’s such an important day for other reasons, but I’d love to make it an important day for this. I would love to have the country opened up, and rarin’ to go by Easter.”

Texas' lieutenant governor suggests grandparents are willing to die for US economy

The lieutenant governor of Texas argued in an interview on Fox News Monday night that the United States should go back to work, saying grandparents like him don’t want to sacrifice the country’s economy during the coronavirus crisis.

A quick Google of “Die for the Dow” or
#notdyingforwallstreet might provide some news. There is some measured and healthy debate happening mixed in with some reactionary responses as well. Then again, voicing ideas out loud such as offering up Grandma as a sacrifice to save the economy is rather shocking and provocative for most people.

OK, so nothing is happening...just Trump saying he wants to open up the country by mid-April and some state official from Texas expressing an opinion.

I've been wondering how it will be determined when and how to unwind the lock-down. Would seem like a combo of numbers showing plateauing cases, feedback from medical community giving the go-ahead feeling comfortable with capacity, and some prevention measurements communicated and in place would be a good framework. Would think getting the cases to plateau first is critical though.