'Convenient Comparisons' - Grass Isn't Always Greener

[Judas Tavares]

A lot of talk these days about "we won't win with this core". Well you won't win the Grabo either.

 

[thewave]

A lot of talk these days about "we won't win with this core". Well you won't win the Grabo either.

the biggest piss off with me with Grabo was not that we got rid of him. its that we commited the ultimate sin, played him in a position to fail one he is not cut out for sucking his value from underneathe him paaaid him to leave then got a fricken POS hockey player for about the same money and worse term,

that is how you take steps BACKWARDS in a rebuild and tbh the overall performance of this team is pretty telling. its not a injury thing either the team played crap hockey

 

[The Winter Soldier]

the biggest piss off with me with Grabo was not that we got rid of him. its that we commited the ultimate sin, played him in a position to fail one he is not cut out for sucking his value from underneathe him paaaid him to leave then got a fricken POS hockey player for about the same money and worse term,

that is how you take steps BACKWARDS in a rebuild and tbh the overall performance of this team is pretty telling. its not a injury thing either the team played crap hockey

We were 126-144-48 with him playing a top 6 role. The year he is surpassed by Kadri we make the playoffs. Why is it a sin on Carlyle's part to want to play better players in the top 6? He had his chance last season starting in the top 6 and failed. Remember the black hole turning his wingers into slump monsters before Kadri turned them back to NHL fwds? There is a reason why we were 126-144-48 with #84 as our #2C, you will never win a championship with him as long as he is a core player.

 

[Mimico]

Mikhail Grabovski vs Dave Bolland (Statistics Pro-Rated)

Grabovski
2008-2009 Points: 50 OZS%: 52.5% GA on/60: 2.70
2009-2010 Points: 49 OZS%: 55.1% GA on/60: 2.71
2010-2011 Points: 59 OZS%: 50.2% GA on/60: 2.41
2011-2012 Points: 57 OZS%: 53.0% GA on/60: 2.74
2012-2013 Points: 27 OZS%: 36.7% GA on/60: 3.28
2013-2014 Points: 67 OZS%: 51.6% GA on/60: 2.33

Bolland
2008-2009 Points: 48 OZS%: 43.3% GA on/60: 2.42
2009-2010 Points: 34 OZS%: 54.5% GA on/60: 2.60
2010-2011 Points: 50 OZS%: 34.2% GA on/60: 2.19
2011-2012 Points: 40 OZS%: 32.5% GA on/60: 2.95
2012-2013 Points: 33 OZS%: 49.6% GA on/60: 3.43
2013-2014 Points: 55 OZS%: 37.9% GA on/60: 2.17

It has become apparent that the Leafs had Kadri/Bozak pegged as the team's two scoring centers
heading into this season. That left Grabovski and his $5.5 million contract occupying the teams
shutdown line.

As you look back at past statistics you can see that Grabovski has done well
producing points as well as limiting his GA on/60 minutes while playing on a scoring line
(50% + Off Zone Start%). However, looking at his numbers from last season, it seems that when
Grabo is utilized as a shutdown center (<40 Off Zone Start%) he struggles mightily to score (27 point pace) and to
prevent GA (3.28 per 60 min).

Instead of playing Grabo in the same ineffective role this year, Nonis
decided to buyout Grabo and his large contract and make a move for a reputable defensive center
who has both produced and prevented GA while receiving Off zone start % in the 30's. Dave
Bolland's history clearly shows why he was acquired when made available. He was coming off
an injury riddled season that resulted in low production and terrible defensive play while playing
the same shutdown role he has played his entire career. Nonis likely saw this as a buy-low
opportunity and quickly pulled the trigger on a deal.

The extra 2 million saved by replacing Grabo with Bolland accompanied by the extra ~4.5 million
saved by letting MacArthur go/Buying out Komisarek were then used to sign Clarkson and
Raymond ($6.25 million). The team now has a legitimate Defensive center that can play on a
shutdown line, a respectable MacArthur replacement in Raymond, and a physical force like
Clarkson to add some needed sand paper and character to our forward group.

 

[DaveT83*]

I can't believe Grabo was given a 5.5M contract. Then bought out a year later.

I can't believe that Bozak is being paid what he is.

I can't believe Kessel/Bozak and Dion will all be signed to long term deals.

I can't believe Clarkson was given the number/length


I can't believe how horribly run this organization is.

 

[Stephen]

Why does anyone care about Clarke MacArthur at all? He's a streaky secondary scorer who is producing points on a bad Ottawa team.

 

[Stephen]

I can't believe Grabo was given a 5.5M contract. Then bought out a year later.

I can't believe that Bozak is being paid what he is.

I can't believe Kessel/Bozak and Dion will all be signed to long term deals.

I can't believe Clarkson was given the number/length


I can't believe how horribly run this organization is.

Yeah, that is pretty unimaginative cap management. It's classic Toronto Blue Jays disease. Lock up star players on your terrible team and expect better results just because you pay them premium.

 

[King85Kong]

We will never win with Bozak as a core player.
We have had a losing record since he has been here, with only making the playoffs one time in a shorten season, losing in the first round.
See I can do it too.

 

[gabeliscious]

If they kept Grabo and let Bozak walk I'd be cool with it all

i think most people would have been ~ok with that decision. grabovski on the 3rd line was the issue. grabovski in a top 6 roll would have been much better imo. i think that bozak had a lot more to do with chemistry with kessel and making kessel happy. shockingly though, as talented as kessel and jvr are, bozak seems to be the only center who clicks on that line.

Cap space

Option 1: Grabovski at $5.5 mil

or

Option 2: Bozak at $4.2 mil + Raymond at $1.0 mil = $5.2 mil

Pick one?

Nonis picked option 2 and it would be the one I would pick also.

raymond was not in the picture at the time nonis decided on his center. it conveniently worked out but raymond just as easily could have ended up not on the leafs. its not like nonis signed bozak, then signed raymond, then bought out grabovski.

june 30th, bolland trade
july 4th, grabovski bought out
july 5th, bozak resigned
sept 23rd, raymond signed

i think its more likley that carlyle wanted no part of grabovski which is why nonis traded for bolland who most would agree as a 3rd line center is the better fit.

i cant find the link but a few days before bozak was signed nonis made some comment during an interview that the leafs want bozak and bozak wants to resign. when thats the case a deal usually gets worked out. i suspect nonis knew bozak was going to be resigned.

i think macarthur was just a cap casualty on the leafs. i get the impression from his comments since signing in ottawa that he wasnt thrilled playing for carlyle but i think no matter what nonis didnt have the cap space to pay him much more then what he paid raymond.

raymond was just a lucky break for the leafs imo. nonis and raymond had some history and nonis gave him a pto and raymond made the best of it. i would be shocked if he is a leaf next year as raymond at $1 million = awsome, raymond at $3 million = meh.

bottom line, i dont think the op comparisons are fair.

grabovski was playing on the 3rd line in toronto. with bozak and kadri, why would anything change if grabs was still here (assuming everyone is healthy). if we are comparing grabovski on the 3rd line vs bolland on the 3rd line i dont think it is disputable which player fits better in that roll.

macarthur might be doing well in ottawa but he wouldnt be getting the same minutes in toronto so his production would be less imo. the only reason why raymond is getting a lot of ice time/ opportunity is because of injury and clarkson not fitting in yet.


bernier> scrivens. i dont think this is disputable. scrivens has played well in front of a stacked la team. i find it hard to believe that all of a sudden at 28 years old scrivens has become a vezina caliber goalie and then low and behold jones comes up and he is a vezina caliber goalie as well. these are 2 goalies who are both undrafted who are doing well because of the team in front of them. if you put either on the leafs it would not be pretty imo.

 

[KuleminFan41]

not really, where you put the talent is irrelevnt. you are trying to match up expected performance vs cost.

if you trade kessel for Staal you are going to conpare the move to the Raymond acquisition lol

Why would it be irrelevant? Because it doesn't agree with what you want? Would you compare losing Mac to bringing in Bernier? No, of course not. Comparisons as almost always done by position and not by what money goes where and how much you saved or overpaid. You compare with what who you lost and who you replaced them with. Thats how comparisons are done.


As the title says, "convenient comparisons"which is exactly what you did. You compared players as a sole purpose to say we downgraded, all you wanted to do was complain and I showed you that you shouldn't make baseless comparisons

Bolland > Grabovski
Raymond > Macarthur
Clarkson ? Frattin
Komarov >
Bernier > Scrivens

Leafs upgraded at the 3rd line C and 3rd line scoring depth who are both capable of playing the 2nd line if needed. Don't let the way Mac is playing right now fool you, he did the exact same thing in his first season with the Leafs. He coasted ever since and regressed each season. We didn't get to really replace Komarov so we didn't exactly upgrade there. As for Clarkson and Frattin , its up in the air at this point. Both played the same amount of games, same points yet Frattin has been healthy scratched while Clarkson has struggled.

 

[KuleminFan41]

I can't believe Grabo was given a 5.5M contract. Then bought out a year later.

I can't believe that Bozak is being paid what he is.

I can't believe Kessel/Bozak and Dion will all be signed to long term deals.

I can't believe Clarkson was given the number/length


I can't believe how horribly run this organization is.

I can't believe you keep complaining about everything

 

[thewave]

i think most people would have been ~ok with that decision. grabovski on the 3rd line was the issue. grabovski in a top 6 roll would have been much better imo. i think that bozak had a lot more to do with chemistry with kessel and making kessel happy. shockingly though, as talented as kessel and jvr are, bozak seems to be the only center who clicks on that line.




raymond was not in the picture at the time nonis decided on his center. it conveniently worked out but raymond just as easily could have ended up not on the leafs. its not like nonis signed bozak, then signed raymond, then bought out grabovski.

june 30th, bolland trade
july 4th, grabovski bought out
july 5th, bozak resigned
sept 23rd, raymond signed

i think its more likley that carlyle wanted no part of grabovski which is why nonis traded for bolland who most would agree as a 3rd line center is the better fit.

i cant find the link but a few days before bozak was signed nonis made some comment during an interview that the leafs want bozak and bozak wants to resign. when thats the case a deal usually gets worked out. i suspect nonis knew bozak was going to be resigned.

i think macarthur was just a cap casualty on the leafs. i get the impression from his comments since signing in ottawa that he wasnt thrilled playing for carlyle but i think no matter what nonis didnt have the cap space to pay him much more then what he paid raymond.

raymond was just a lucky break for the leafs imo. nonis and raymond had some history and nonis gave him a pto and raymond made the best of it. i would be shocked if he is a leaf next year as raymond at $1 million = awsome, raymond at $3 million = meh.

bottom line, i dont think the op comparisons are fair.

grabovski was playing on the 3rd line in toronto. with bozak and kadri, why would anything change if grabs was still here (assuming everyone is healthy). if we are comparing grabovski on the 3rd line vs bolland on the 3rd line i dont think it is disputable which player fits better in that roll.

macarthur might be doing well in ottawa but he wouldnt be getting the same minutes in toronto so his production would be less imo. the only reason why raymond is getting a lot of ice time/ opportunity is because of injury and clarkson not fitting in yet.


bernier> scrivens. i dont think this is disputable. scrivens has played well in front of a stacked la team. i find it hard to believe that all of a sudden at 28 years old scrivens has become a vezina caliber goalie and then low and behold jones comes up and he is a vezina caliber goalie as well. these are 2 goalies who are both undrafted who are doing well because of the team in front of them. if you put either on the leafs it would not be pretty imo.

we have no center depth, trade your best center for nothing. kadri has 35 solid games is called dougie becomes the second line center. Bozak continues to get a free ride on the first. thats it.

 

[therealkoho]

Agreed, when Bolland was acquired that was the end of Grabovski in Toronto, even the biggest Grabovski fan would admit Bolland is far better than him in the #3C role.

As for Bozak, he has played very well this year. 16 games, 11 points, +5. He was earning his new contract 1.3 less than 5.5. Nothing wrong with his cap hit considering he plays in all situations. And he has centered Lupul, Kessel, and JVR to their most productive years. He and Bolland have proven to be great fits for our team.

Absolutely, had Grabs been signed long term @3.5 I still think the Leafs buy him out and keep Bozak who is a very good 2 way centre and an excellent PKer which Grabs was not, and I was a Grabovski fan for the most part

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Regardless of corsi numbers, simply put, the team was winning when both Bolland and Bozak were healthy. The PK was amongst the leagues best and both players were contributing at both ends of the ice, which is a key component to the so called Randy Carlyle system

The grass only looks greener when staring at it from across the meadow, whats done is done get over it

 

[AustonMitchWilly]

I agree that having Grabo was a nuisance because he couldn't play his role. I think he would be gone anyway because we already had Bozie and Kadri and we needed a guy like Bolland to play his role.

 

[Super Mega]

How pathetic is it that Clarkson cant even stack up to a frequently scratched Matt Frattin? Hoping we make the playoffs and he becomes a different player otherwise I hope the organization takes a long hard look at his progress this year.

If we could turn back time I would do whatever I could to maintain Komarov, Could we not afford 2Mil on a checking role? Get him off the 4th line if you have to justify it, guy was a freight train, great in corners, stone hands but come on!

 

[Stephen]

How pathetic is it that Clarkson cant even stack up to a frequently scratched Matt Frattin? Hoping we make the playoffs and he becomes a different player otherwise I hope the organization takes a long hard look at his progress this year.

If we could turn back time I would do whatever I could to maintain Komarov, Could we not afford 2Mil on a checking role? Get him off the 4th line if you have to justify it, guy was a freight train, great in corners, stone hands but come on!

The organization targeted the correct type of piece to go after in Clarkson, but it's unfortunate how ex-Devils often turn from soldier into scrub once they leave New Jersey. The potential hometown hero looks like a bit of a fraud at this point.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

The organization targeted the correct type of piece to go after in Clarkson, but it's unfortunate how ex-Devils often turn from soldier into scrub once they leave New Jersey. The potential hometown hero looks like a bit of a fraud at this point.

I disagree.

Committing 7 years and a big cap hit to another winger (with only 2nd line upside) was a bad move.

This team needs that cap space to put towards the D group or center group far more.

I'm fine with the Grabo buyout but why couldn't we have just signed a player on a short-term deal as a stop gap like Iggy, Alffy, CMac, Cullen, Gonchar, Roy, Jagr all signed to either 1 or 2 year deals.

Signing a vet to a short term deal as a stop gap would have left us the flexibility to make moves which includes being sellers at the deadline which is now a realistic possibility. Instead we're committed to Clarkson for 7 years as a core piece.

 

[Penalty Kill Icing*]

Another Grabo thread.

Just let it go. We made a decision. One that I think is a bad one. But it is what it is.

 

[AustonMitchWilly]

Another Grabo thread.

Just let it go. We made a decision. One that I think is a bad one. But it is what it is.

This is a mindset thread, not a Grabo thread

 

[Penalty Kill Icing*]

This is a mindset thread, not a Grabo thread

I see your content in OP quite ironic because you talk about 'convenient comparisons' yet you conveniently omitted Clarkson (the player who was handed out the biggest contract in the league as UFA this year, and biggest contract in Leafs history 'til that date).

You conveniently compared Raymond to MacArthur because Raymond has been ridiculously good for $1 million. It is unrealistic to expect Raymond to re-sign with us for same cap hit next year with the cap going up and many teams wanting to reach the floor.

However, it is not unrealistic to expect more seasons like this from Clarkson. This is how he has played in his entire NHL career except for this one hard stretch.

When you have 5 million of dead asset, you can't blame other for "grass is greener" approach when the ex-players ARE producing and you conveniently omit the high paid Leafs player who isn't.

See that? That is all 'convenient' comparisons.

 

[achtungbaby]

Yeah, that is pretty unimaginative cap management. It's classic Toronto Blue Jays disease. Lock up star players on your terrible team and expect better results just because you pay them premium.

Yup keeping the same core on a bad team except paying them more is exactly the situation that leads to buyouts and giving away players for cents on the dollar. Terrible asset management.

 

[Bluelines]

We were 126-144-48 with him playing a top 6 role. The year he is surpassed by Kadri we make the playoffs. Why is it a sin on Carlyle's part to want to play better players in the top 6? He had his chance last season starting in the top 6 and failed. Remember the black hole turning his wingers into slump monsters before Kadri turned them back to NHL fwds? There is a reason why we were 126-144-48 with #84 as our #2C, you will never win a championship with him as long as he is a core player.

If that is the case, Grabo was certainly measured by different standards that kadri, Kadri was brutal as a 2nd line center and kept his 2nd line job.

Even though Kadri played 3rd line minutes, that line was never used as a shutdown line.

We had the same terrible record with Kessel does that make Kessel expendable too? Last time I checked hockey was a team game and not a game that hinged on the performance of a 2nd line center role.

 

[pucci2001]

Cap space

Option 1: Grabovski at $5.5 mil

or

Option 2: Bozak at $4.2 mil + Raymond at $1.0 mil = $5.2 mil

Pick one?

Nonis picked option 2 and it would be the one I would pick also.

I don't think thats what it came down to. I think it came down to RC not liking Grabo and him not flourishing in the new system. You have to look at our cap moves as a whole not pick and choose which you think reflected upon the other. I think Grabo was let go because it was easy with the buyouts and it made room for Clarkson and still left breathing room for all the other UFA/RFAs we had left to sign.

 

[AustonMitchWilly]

If that is the case, Grabo was certainly measured by different standards that kadri, Kadri was brutal as a 2nd line center and kept his 2nd line job.

Even though Kadri played 3rd line minutes, that line was never used as a shutdown line.

We had the same terrible record with Kessel does that make Kessel expendable too? Last time I checked hockey was a team game and not a game that hinged on the performance of a 2nd line center role.

Kadri was develop-ing

Grabo was develop-ed

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Absolutely, had Grabs been signed long term @3.5 I still think the Leafs buy him out and keep Bozak who is a very good 2 way centre and an excellent PKer which Grabs was not, and I was a Grabovski fan for the most part

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Regardless of corsi numbers, simply put, the team was winning when both Bolland and Bozak were healthy. The PK was amongst the leagues best and both players were contributing at both ends of the ice, which is a key component to the so called Randy Carlyle system

The grass only looks greener when staring at it from across the meadow, whats done is done get over it

I commend you for admitting you were for the most a Grabo fan, but you see us being better with Bolland and Bozak. Thumbs up for being upstanding about this.