CIS transfer question

[Alpine]

^^
Which is why Jr A players make CIS schools.
Unlike NCAA the clock doesn't start when they start Uni.
They can attend a Uni full time from graduating HS play Jr A from 18 yrs and then play CIS as 20 or 21 year olds being 2nd or 3rd year students but only being in their 1st year of eligibility.
One of the reason CW/OUA football is as strong is because of the Jr football leagues. The rookies are 22 years old compared to AUS HS 18 year olds.

 

[Island Husky]

UNB had a couple of mature cross country runners this year as well: Rob Jackson set a Canadian record in the 55-59 year old age group at a summer event, went to UNB this fall...was injured and so didn't factor at Atlantic event, but was nevertheless a varsity athlete at UNB. Alex Coffin of UNBSJ also represented UNB...he's early 40s, I believe.

Not to throw anything in here to confuse you Oilers Chick, and after that excellent description and interpretation of the rules, I'd have to be crazy, but the historical perspective always interests me, anyway... Years ago, ( in the eighties) there was an age restriction in CIS hockey anyway. It came to light when a new team to the AUAA ( Now AUS) Conference recruited a star local player, 32 years old married and family. But what a player. It was almost essential they attract him to get off on the right foot, and he was known as a money player, making the rounds in the Senior Circuit, playing for a living. Anyway they got him in, perhaps then changed the ruling, I forget what order it occurred, but the rule was you lost a year of CIAU ( now CIS) eligibility for every year over your 25th birthday. The rumour at the time was, He was not eligible, but the AD managed it somehow. Maybe. They weren't too bad compared to some organizations, but there seemed to be a lot less regulation in the CIS than there is now. Probably just the technology, but you would never get away with something like that now.
The most recent I can think of in football, was that 34 year old place kicker Acadia had back in 05 or 06, before they instituted the current rule.

 

[Oilers Chick]

^^
Which is why Jr A players make CIS schools.
Unlike NCAA the clock doesn't start when they start Uni.
They can attend a Uni full time from graduating HS play Jr A from 18 yrs and then play CIS as 20 or 21 year olds being 2nd or 3rd year students but only being in their 1st year of eligibility.
One of the reason CW/OUA football is as strong is because of the Jr football leagues. The rookies are 22 years old compared to AUS HS 18 year olds.

In Junior "A", I assume you mean CHL? Because here in the States, we refer to Junior "A" as the BCHL, AJHL, etc.

I want to thank you all for enlightening me on how the CIS transfer rules and other aspects of the educational system for student-athletes. I really appreciate everyone's input and I now have a much better understanding.

 

[Island Husky]

In Junior "A", I assume you mean CHL? Because here in the States, we refer to Junior "A" as the BCHL, AJHL, etc.

I want to thank you all for enlightening me on how the CIS transfer rules and other aspects of the educational system for student-athletes. I really appreciate everyone's input and I now have a much better understanding.

Pardon my answering for him, He means Junior A Tier II, which is what you are referring to as well. The tier designation was done away with a few years ago, but the CHL is the governing body of the three Major Junior leagues in Canada (and the US), those being the Ontario Hockey League, (OHL) the Western Hockey League (WHL) and the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League (QMJHL), all once known as Junior A Tier I.
So the major juniors come under the CHL and the Junior A under the CJHL Canadian Junior Hockey League

 

[speedway]

I realize this thread has been dormant for a while, but thought I would pose my questions before starting a new thread. This regards an NCAA transfer situation to CIS.

A player has redshirted his Freshman year, then played a year. He attends one semester of summer courses in the post season. Now he wishes to make use of the 4-2-4 rule (NCAA) to avoid sitting out a year in residence. He goes to play in the USHL as he is still 20 and takes the requisite number of couse hours. At this point, he would be eligible to transfer to another NCAA school, but is this valid for a CIS school as well? Also, providing he could manage the workload, could he play in the CHL and then transfer to CIS? Last question-can these courses be online or must he physically attend an institution?

Whew! Hope someone has the answers! Thanks in advance

 

[FreddyFoyle]

If you have the required high school credits to get admitted to a CIS university as a full-time student, you can play CIS hockey right away. Guys, over-agers usually, even sometimes leave their CHL teams at Christmas and start playing for a CIS team in the second term/semester. The key is to be accepted into university as a full-time student.

The CIS is not as complicated as the NCAA when it comes to eligibility. You can not take ANY courses for say two years, and as long as you can get enrolled at the university you can be be eligible to play CIS hockey right away and have all your eligibility. Only CIS football has a countdown eligibility clock that starts from when you graduate from high school.

 

[Drummer]

A player has redshirted his Freshman year, then played a year. He attends one semester of summer courses in the post season. Now he wishes to make use of the 4-2-4 rule (NCAA) to avoid sitting out a year in residence. He goes to play in the USHL as he is still 20 and takes the requisite number of course hours. At this point, he would be eligible to transfer to another NCAA school, but is this valid for a CIS school as well?

Yes - he can also transfer to a CIS school provided he is accepted academically (as Foil mentioned above).

I believe if he is under 21, then he would lose no years of eligability (he would have 5 years available). That's how it works if he had played pro - not sure about playing at another school (NCAA or CIS). He would be out one(1) at most.

Also, providing he could manage the workload, could he play in the CHL and then transfer to CIS?

Yes, but it would not be necessary. You do not have to be enrolled at an educational institution to be accepted into university while playing CHL. It would help, as it shows you have some academic standing, but not required.

In your example, he would already have 2 years of academic standing from his NCAA career. As such, he would not 'have' to attend a Canadian university while playing CHL.

It is worth noting: the CHL leagues do require that a player maintain good academic standing (part-time, on-line or in-person) at a secondary education program to be eligible for CHL education packages. Most players take one or two online courses (they can be from any recognized program, so they don't have to pick the school in advance that they want to play for). Failing to comply will result in forfit of their CHL education package - seperate from any financial packages a school may provide.

Last question-can these courses be online or must he physically attend an institution?

Either - as stated above

 

[speedway]

I am very confused then.In interpreting the CIS rules, if you transfer from NCAA, make a one year pit stop in the CHL-I thought you had to sit out one year in residence. That is what I understand from reading the CIS rule. So let me lay it out again to be sure:

2010-2011 redshirt NCAA
2011-2012 play NCAA hockey as a redshirt freshman, sophomore student
2012-2013 QMJHL or USHL
2013-2014 CIS

 

[Drummer]

I am very confused then.In interpreting the CIS rules, if you transfer from NCAA, make a one year pit stop in the CHL-I thought you had to sit out one year in residence. That is what I understand from reading the CIS rule. So let me lay it out again to be sure:

2010-2011 redshirt NCAA
2011-2012 play NCAA hockey as a redshirt freshman, sophomore student
2012-2013 QMJHL or USHL
2013-2014 CIS

This is from the CIS FAQ on Transfers.

Q. As a NCAA or NAIA student-athlete, how soon can I play after transferring to a CIS school?
A. Assuming you have satisfied the other eligibility requirements, and you have not completed your NCAA or NAIA eligibility, one year must pass from your last participation in that sport.

so, his year in the QMJHL or USHL (2012-2013) is his 'off' year and he can play for any CIS school that accepts him.

He would also be eligible for 1-year/pro rated 'Q' league financial assistance, provided he complies with their education policy.

Some choose to sit their year out at the target school they want to attend and red shirt while on-campus.

The following CIS rule can be confusing:

Athletes who have been charged with a year of eligibility or a season of competition in four separate academic years within a non-Canadian post-secondary jurisdiction, such as the NCAA, are ineligible for CIS competition

In English - of you have played four years of eligibility at an NCAA school - you can't play your fifth year at a CIS school.

 

[speedway]

Thank you so much! I understood that that the year had to be sat out in residence, as per NCAA rules.

 

[Drummer]

An example

As an example, Stefan Salituro playing for UNB.

He played for Robert Morris (NCAA-D1, CHA-College Hockey America) for one year. It didn't work out, so he returned to Canada and played Junior-A (the league under Major Junior-CHL) in Pembroke last year (this being his 'off' year) and is now playing at UNB (freshman, but his second year of eligibility - one year lost for playing at RMU, but CIS has a 5 year limit, so he has this year and three more - enough time to finish his degree and play 4 seasons).

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=104998

 

[Shootmaster_44]

The following CIS rule can be confusing:

Athletes who have been charged with a year of eligibility or a season of competition in four separate academic years within a non-Canadian post-secondary jurisdiction, such as the NCAA, are ineligible for CIS competition

In English - of you have played four years of eligibility at an NCAA school - you can't play your fifth year at a CIS school.

Does the professional degree rule get around this one? The reason I wonder is that there are always a few CIS football players in the QSSF (and occasionally OUA) that played four years in the US and then come back and play a fifth in Canada. How would someone be able to do that?

I realize that there are very few NCAA players who would think to come to Canada to play any sport, aside from football (owing to the CFL's non-import rule). But there would be some who would want to play other sports while they work on their MBA or other higher degree.

Also, I assume this doesn't apply to UBC. Since UBC has some teams who play NAIA sports (baseball being the one that jumps to mind), I assume a baseball player who has burned all 4 years of NAIA eligibility, could still join another UBC team for a fifth year correct?

I wonder why this rule even exists? Aside from the transfer rule, I'm not sure why the CIS is limiting itself to this kind of potential exposure. Why not allow a player, who has completed 4 years of NCAA/NAIA, to play a fifth year in the CIS. It could be great exposure, especially in basketball and football, to have a player join Saskatchewan or McMaster who was well known due to a fantastic play or two in the NCAA, but was passed over for the pros.

 

[Drummer]

Does the professional degree rule get around this one? The reason I wonder is that there are always a few CIS football players in the QSSF (and occasionally OUA) that played four years in the US and then come back and play a fifth in Canada. How would someone be able to do that?

I believe the intent is look at the 4 years as a University Career so just move on. You could appeal to the CIS if you really wanted to play a year of hockey somewhere while taking an MBA.

I would avoid taking an example from CIS Football as they have a completely separate set of rules.

I realize that there are very few NCAA players who would think to come to Canada to play any sport, aside from football (owing to the CFL's non-import rule). But there would be some who would want to play other sports while they work on their MBA or other higher degree.

You can play another sport - eligibility is per-sport. Otherwise, a hockey/soccer player would only have 2 years. UNB had a Hockey player (Jason Campbell) play both Hockey and Soccer for a number of years.

Also, I assume this doesn't apply to UBC. Since UBC has some teams who play NAIA sports (baseball being the one that jumps to mind), I assume a baseball player who has burned all 4 years of NAIA eligibility, could still join another UBC team for a fifth year correct?

They could play another CIS sport for 5 years.

I wonder why this rule even exists? Aside from the transfer rule, I'm not sure why the CIS is limiting itself to this kind of potential exposure. Why not allow a player, who has completed 4 years of NCAA/NAIA, to play a fifth year in the CIS. It could be great exposure, especially in basketball and football, to have a player join Saskatchewan or McMaster who was well known due to a fantastic play or two in the NCAA, but was passed over for the pros.

It only helps a team for one year at the expense of developing a long term prospect and how many candidates could there be if you have to be in a professional degree. As I said above, you have completed a university career - move on, or play a different sport.

 

[Shootmaster_44]

I would avoid taking an example from CIS Football as they have a completely separate set of rules.

For sure there are a few, mostly as a result of my team the Saskatchewan Huskies. But for the most part, the overall rules are the same. Only the 5 in 7 years and the age limit of 25 are football specific. But that is a thread for cisfootball.org and not here. Just thought, I'd ask about that since you mentioned the rule.

You can play another sport - eligibility is per-sport. Otherwise, a hockey/soccer player would only have 2 years. UNB had a Hockey player (Jason Campbell) play both Hockey and Soccer for a number of years.

Again, my biggest exposure is football. But is this a recent change? I know when the Regina Rams linked up with the U of R, a few of their players had been Cougars volleyball players, so they lost eligibility. The way I understood it was that it was per school year not per sport. Meaning you play football for two seasons and then decide hockey is more your speed, you only have three more seasons for hockey. But it doesn't limit your ability to play on multiple teams each year. Am I wrong?

It only helps a team for one year at the expense of developing a long term prospect and how many candidates could there be if you have to be in a professional degree. As I said above, you have completed a university career - move on, or play a different sport.

That is true, but this is where the football rules and I don't agree. If I am a student at your institution and all student athletes there get 5 years, why can't I play my 5th year at your school? If I had played the previous 4 at your school instead of Michigan, I'd get a 5th year. So what difference should it make?

 

[lakai17]

Can anyone tryout for a CIS team? Is junior experience a necessity?

 

[Hollywood3]

Can anyone tryout for a CIS team? Is junior experience a necessity?

Each school will grant a tryout to everybody with a minimum level of experience, usually Midget AAA.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

Can anyone tryout for a CIS team? Is junior experience a necessity?

As Holly said, depending on the school (and maybe it includes everyone) all varsity sports teams have to have open tryouts.

However, and it is a big however, you need to contact the coach to find out when that is in the fall. Time and date is not always posted. If you have not played Junior or at least Midget AAA you might be discouraged from trying out, at least with the top teams, or reduced to being invited to a mass tryout with really slim chance of getting a good look.

There are lots of hockey players with Junior experience who can't make the cut for CIS teams.

 

[AUS Fan]

If you do not have Junior experience the odds of making any CIS team are slim.

If you show up at a tryout camp and no one has even heard of you.....You can fill in the blanks.

 

[Hollywood3]

From what I have seen, the Bisons are pretty good at giving guys at least an inter-squad game. To get into an exhibition game against a CIS team you would have to have some chance to make the team. They usually want to know who is on campus "just in case". I believe they keep track of all Junior A and above players. If you are Junior B they would probably ask why you never played Junior A.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

I believe they keep track of all Junior A and above players. If you are Junior B they would probably ask why you never played Junior A.

True. A couple of years ago UNB started using a tryout guy in practices (who played Junior A or B, can't remember), as the coach likes 8 defencemen in practice and they had 7 on the roster. The Engineering student never dressed for a game if I remember correctly.

Coaches definitely keep track of goaltenders on campus. Again in the case of UNB, they've had to dress a Junior B guy a few times as an emergency back-up when they didn't have a third goalie on the roster. They once even dressed an equipment guy (or student trainer?) as a back-up goalie (who hadn't played since Midget) because they were desperate for an injury back-up.

 

[lakai17]

At the same time many junior players weren't stellar in their junior careers, hence university hockey. We all know all players develop differently. If you go into camp intimidated you don't stand a chance.

 

[lakai17]

If you do not have Junior experience the odds of making any CIS team are slim.

If you show up at a tryout camp and no one has even heard of you.....You can fill in the blanks.

Many love players that rise from the ashes. A lion playing possum would make a great story. It is only university hockey. I'm sure some of the best senior teams in the country could make a game with a university team. Only university hockey once again. I don't see many university players going on to Europe or the AHL.

 

[AUS Fan]

Many love players that rise from the ashes. A lion playing possum would make a great story. It is only university hockey. I'm sure some of the best senior teams in the country could make a game with a university team. Only university hockey once again. I don't see many university players going on to Europe or the AHL.

This is not the Movie of the Week. If no one has heard of you, then you probably don't have the talent to play in the CIS.

When you say "It is only university hockey. ", it's obvious that you don't understand the level these guys play at.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

I'm sure some of the best senior teams in the country could make a game with a university team.

The best senior teams in the country are loaded with former CIS, NCAA and minor pro players, sometimes even exNHLers. What's your point?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Two Factors

Many love players that rise from the ashes. A lion playing possum would make a great story. It is only university hockey. I'm sure some of the best senior teams in the country could make a game with a university team. Only university hockey once again. I don't see many university players going on to Europe or the AHL.

Two factors.

European or minor pro opportunity has to offer more short and long term benefits than entry level opportunities in the job market for university grads. Rarely do. People do not sacrifice 35-40 year career opportunities for a 1 or 2 year lark.

Midget AAA would be the cutoff as hockey is presently structured. Below and the player has not been exposed to the recognition and reaction factors required to play at the university level. Skating and other skills may be there but doing something viable under game conditions by recognizing and reacting to changing game conditions takes a few years of high level competition at the pre university level.