CIS transfer question

[Oilers Chick]

I have a couple of questions for all of you that follow the CIS closely.

How does CIS transfer rules work?

For instance (and for the sake of argument), Player So-and-So wants to leave the University of Manitoba and transfer to the University of Alberta and play for the Golden Bears so that he can get more playing time. (I'm just using an example here)

Or....

say that Manitoba dismissed him for some team rule violations and he opts to transfer.

What is involved when a CIS player does that? How does that affect the college credits that he's already accumulated, if it does? How will it affect his ability to be able to play for another CIS team, should he chose to transfer?

Any info and insight, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

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[AUS Fan]

Here is an excerpt from the CIS Athletes Guide:

As a current CIS student-athlete, how soon can I play after transferring to another CIS school? · one year must pass from your last participation in that sport, subject to all other rules.

Are there any exceptions?
· when either the sport you play or your academic program of study has been discontinued at your school, subject to all other rules.
· if you enroll in a graduate or first professional degree program at a school different from the one you attended the previous year, you may be able to participate immediately in CIS competition (please consult your Athletic Department).
· for academic years 2008-09, 2009-10, and 2010-11, and specific to the sports of swimming, track & field, and cross-country running, a student-athlete can transfer to a CIS institution from any degree granting post-secondary institution without restriction in an immediately subsequent academic year under certain conditions (please consult your Athletic Department).

What else should I know?
· if you contact another school’s coach or Athletic Department representative regarding a potential transfer, the Athletic Director of your present school will be notified.


Generally speaking, you can't play for a full year after your last game at your old school. You also can't transfer in the middle of a semester, you would have to wait until the next semester. Obviously, your marks and area of study would be factors also.

I'm sure others will chime in on this and you will get a full picture.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

AUS Fan knows the crowd too well ...

For instance (and for the sake of argument), Player So-and-So wants to leave the University of Manitoba and transfer to the University of Alberta and play for the Golden Bears so that he can get more playing time. (I'm just using an example here)

Or....

say that Manitoba dismissed him for some team rule violations and he opts to transfer.

What is involved when a CIS player does that? How does that affect the college credits that he's already accumulated, if it does? How will it affect his ability to be able to play for another CIS team, should he chose to transfer?

Most of your answer is in that CIS FAQ. For transferring credits, it just like any other student -- your new school may accept some or all of your credits depending what program you transfer into. If you leave Manitoba in your example before you the end of the academic term/semester you're obviously not going to get credits for quitting courses. However, if our example student at Manitoba is a Business Admin/Commerce student and gets good grades and transfers to Business Admin/Commerce at Alberta at the end of a term he'll probably be able to transfer most of his earned credits.

If you transfer you're going to have to red-shirt for a year anyways, so if you were kicked off the team in Manitoba say on the 1st of October you could stay in classes in Winnipeg, and apply and transfer to Alberta at Christmas (doesn't happen often) or finish the academic year and transfer to Alberta for the following September (more common). As long as you are academically eligible, our student athlete could start playing for the Golden Bears 365 days after his last game with the Bisons.

There are a few exceptions to the one-year red-shirting not detailed in that FAQ. Sometimes you can be allowed to transfer without penalty on "compassionate grounds" if you are having personal or family issues. This happens once in a while in the CIS. The "first professional degree" exception includes programs like Education, Law, Pharmacy, Medicine, etc. that don't allow entry direct from high school, as well as graduate programs like MBA. Some years we see several hockey players opting to use their 5th year of eligibility to take their MBA; effectively they are free agents. It works if you have the grades to do that.

These same transfer rules apply to student-athletes transferring from the NCAA to the CIS. UNB for example this year added Stefan Salituro who left Robert Morris for some reason last fall. Salituro stayed on campus to finish the term and started played for Junior A Pembroke in January. Since he didn't appear in an NCAA game last season Salituro is eligible to play for the Varsity Reds this season (although he's only dressed for a couple of games courtesy of UNB's depth).

One key is that you have to successfully complete 18 credit hours in the academic year at your previous institution. Jeff Lee left Alaska midway through his second season and opted to play Major Junior. Even though it had been several years since playing in the NCAA, he had to become academically eligible since he had quit Alaska without finishing his final semester there. Lee had to take a number of online courses and pass them in a compressed time in order to get the needed credits, and even then only got to play at UNB in late November that year.

Similarly, if you flunk out of a school (or are "asked to withdraw") you will need to become academically eligible again (pass 18 credit hours) BEFORE you will be allowed to play for your new school.

I should also add that you have to be considered a full-time student at your CIS school in order to participate in varsity athletics. Most of us think of this as a minimum of four courses in a term, but in actual fact it is usually three. However student loans and scholarships usually require a course-load of four classes.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

The posting software just ate my long answer ... I'll try to be more brief.

Wait ... it just showed up. Weird.

 

[Johnny8242]

On topic but a little different question.

What are the pro to CIS rules?

Example- Marc-Antoine Desnoyers was able to leave the Elmira Jackals and jump right onto the UNB team.

Chris Morehouse left pro hockey and when the press release announcing him going to STU said he had to wait a full year since his last pro game. I do know that he played previously in the CIS at Saint-Mary's so i don't know if that has anything to do with it.

 

[Oilers Chick]

AUS Fan knows the crowd too well ...



Most of your answer is in that CIS FAQ. For transferring credits, it just like any other student -- your new school may accept some or all of your credits depending what program you transfer into. If you leave Manitoba in your example before you the end of the academic term/semester you're obviously not going to get credits for quitting courses. However, if our example student at Manitoba is a Business Admin/Commerce student and gets good grades and transfers to Business Admin/Commerce at Alberta at the end of a term he'll probably be able to transfer most of his earned credits.

If you transfer you're going to have to red-shirt for a year anyways, so if you were kicked off the team in Manitoba say on the 1st of October you could stay in classes in Winnipeg, and apply and transfer to Alberta at Christmas (doesn't happen often) or finish the academic year and transfer to Alberta for the following September (more common). As long as you are academically eligible, our student athlete could start playing for the Golden Bears 365 days after his last game with the Bisons.

There are a few exceptions to the one-year red-shirting not detailed in that FAQ. Sometimes you can be allowed to transfer without penalty on "compassionate grounds" if you are having personal or family issues. This happens once in a while in the CIS. The "first professional degree" exception includes programs like Education, Law, Pharmacy, Medicine, etc. that don't allow entry direct from high school, as well as graduate programs like MBA. Some years we see several hockey players opting to use their 5th year of eligibility to take their MBA; effectively they are free agents. It works if you have the grades to do that.

These same transfer rules apply to student-athletes transferring from the NCAA to the CIS. UNB for example this year added Stefan Salituro who left Robert Morris for some reason last fall. Salituro stayed on campus to finish the term and started played for Junior A Pembroke in January. Since he didn't appear in an NCAA game last season Salituro is eligible to play for the Varsity Reds this season (although he's only dressed for a couple of games courtesy of UNB's depth).

One key is that you have to successfully complete 18 credit hours in the academic year at your previous institution. Jeff Lee left Alaska midway through his second season and opted to play Major Junior. Even though it had been several years since playing in the NCAA, he had to become academically eligible since he had quit Alaska without finishing his final semester there. Lee had to take a number of online courses and pass them in a compressed time in order to get the needed credits, and even then only got to play at UNB in late November that year.

Similarly, if you flunk out of a school (or are "asked to withdraw") you will need to become academically eligible again (pass 18 credit hours) BEFORE you will be allowed to play for your new school.

I should also add that you have to be considered a full-time student at your CIS school in order to participate in varsity athletics. Most of us think of this as a minimum of four courses in a term, but in actual fact it is usually three. However student loans and scholarships usually require a course-load of four classes.

This is very helpful and gives me a better understanding of the CIS and how it works, so big thanks to you and AUS Fan for the insight. In some ways, it sounds like the CIS transfer rules are similar to those of the NCAA.

I do have one follow-up question....you mentioned the Salituro situation. He wasn't eligible to play until this fall. I know that Andrew Glass, who was dismissed by BU this past January, is now at Carleton. So he's not eligible to play until the fall of 2012, correct? I was just looking at Carleton's stats and he's not listed anywhere, so I assume that he's currently ineligible.

 

[Alpine]

On topic but a little different question.

What are the pro to CIS rules?

Example- Marc-Antoine Desnoyers was able to leave the Elmira Jackals and jump right onto the UNB team.

Chris Morehouse left pro hockey and when the press release announcing him going to STU said he had to wait a full year since his last pro game. I do know that he played previously in the CIS at Saint-Mary's so i don't know if that has anything to do with it.

I can't quote the rule but CIS allows players in their 1st year out of Jr to try pro up untill Dec 31(?). If they turn to CIS no later than Dec 31 no eligibility penalty is given.
Morehouse played CIS out of Jr then pro so he would be given the 1 year he played CIS plus the years he played pro and the year he has to sit out and the remainder of the 5 years of eligibility is what has left to play with STU.

 

[AUS Fan]

If Glass last played in January 2011, he would be eligible to play for Carleton one year after his last game at BU which would be January 2012.

As far as Desnoyers and Moorehouse, Desnoyers left Elmira before the end of December while Moorehouse played 1 1/2 years in the ECHL. CIS rules allow the former to join a CIS team in the second half while the latter has to sit out one full year from his last game. Ben Breault at DAL did the same thing as Desnoyers; left Florida before Dec 31 and joined the Tigers in January.

 

[Oilers Chick]

So how does going from pro to CIS affect a player's eligibility from an academic standpoint? Say if a player was in the ECHL but had previously attended a CIS institution (and perhaps played there as well), but decides to return to say complete his degree or maybe get some post-graduate studies done. Will his accumulated credits still be in affect? If so, what is the timeline cutoff in terms of when it would no longer be applicable? Is there one?

Also, say that this player that played at one institution prior to playing in the ECHL and opts to return to finish his studies (or start his post-grad studies) at another institution. How would that work?

Sorry for all of the questions, I'm just trying to educate myself here.

 

[Drummer]

I can't quote the rule but CIS allows players in their 1st year out of Jr to try pro up untill Dec 31(?). If they turn to CIS no later than Dec 31 no eligibility penalty is given.
Morehouse played CIS out of Jr then pro so he would be given the 1 year he played CIS plus the years he played pro and the year he has to sit out and the remainder of the 5 years of eligibility is what has left to play with STU.

To add - you can play pro, without penalty, until Dec 31st of the year you turn 21. In most cases, Jr players are 20-21 when they try pro, which is why you see a few players each year come into the CIS after Christmas without penalty and without having to sit.

If they stick it out for the season, they will lose that year and have to wait a year before playing CIS hockey. They can stay at home or red-shirt at the school. If they stay at home, they are at risk of not being academically eligible if their marks aren't good. If they red-shirt, they will have 4 years of eligibility but have probably completed 8-10 courses - thus leaving 3 years of school.

An interesting example is Josh Kidd, from UNB, he played AHL for two years but was 20 & 21 when he did. He came to UNB after with no penalty to eligibility

 

[FreddyFoyle]

The pro-exception in CIS hockey has to do with age - basically you can play pro as a 20 year old and not have to sit, which is why guys like Desnoyer and Breault can play a few months of pro after Junior and then decide at Christmas to go to university after all and not have to sit a year. Morehouse played pro as a 21 year old, and older, and so has to red-shirt for a year.

You also lose a year of eligibility for years of pro hockey played as a 21 year old or older. So you could play three years in the ECHL right out of Junior, sit a year, and maybe only lose 2 years of CIS eligibilty because you were 20 years old in your first year of pro hockey.

From the CIS regs:

40.10.6.2.3.6.3 An athlete who has participated in any league classified by CIS as professional prior to December 31 of the year that athlete turns 21, and who has not participated in CIS hockey in the same academic year as his professional participation, shall:
a) Not be charged with having consumed CIS eligibility, and
b) Be eligible to participate upon entry

 

[Alpine]

I would think that any combination of pro and CIS up untill 4 years plus the year that has to be sat out would burn the 5 years of eligibility.
Except for the post grad transfer.
But the compassionate rule might come in as CIS gave Mike Danton some eligibilty after playing NHL and his prison time. But that would at the discretion of the CIS.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

So how does going from pro to CIS affect a player's eligibility from an academic standpoint? Say if a player was in the ECHL but had previously attended a CIS institution (and perhaps played there as well), but decides to return to say complete his degree or maybe get some post-graduate studies done. Will his accumulated credits still be in affect? If so, what is the timeline cutoff in terms of when it would no longer be applicable? Is there one?

Also, say that this player that played at one institution prior to playing in the ECHL and opts to return to finish his studies (or start his post-grad studies) at another institution. How would that work?

Sorry for all of the questions, I'm just trying to educate myself here.

There's no stop clock on graduation in the CIS. You just have a maximum of five years of playing eligibility as a student athlete.

Someone mentioned Chris Morehouse. He played in the QMJHL with Moncton. He played for Saint Mary's in the CIS in 2008-09. He had a "parting of the ways" and left school after one season. He then played pro hockey in the ECHL and CHL on five teams (!) over two partial seasons (2009-11). He decided to come back to school and enrolls at St. Thomas. He's red-shirting at STU right now, and understand he'll be eligible after Christmas some time (365 days from his last pro game last season).

He'll lose 2 years of CIS eligibility for the full season and part season in the pros. He's already used one year at Saint Mary's. So he has two years of CIS eligibility left, and will burn one year of that if he only plays part of this current season for St. Thomas

 

[Oilers Chick]

There's no stop clock on graduation in the CIS. You just have a maximum of five years of playing eligibility as a student athlete.

Regardless of age or when he opts to return?

 

[Drummer]

So how does going from pro to CIS affect a player's eligibility from an academic standpoint? Say if a player was in the ECHL but had previously attended a CIS institution (and perhaps played there as well), but decides to return to say complete his degree or maybe get some post-graduate studies done. Will his accumulated credits still be in affect? If so, what is the timeline cutoff in terms of when it would no longer be applicable? Is there one?

The cut-off depends on the school/institution's Registrar's Office. I believe, in the case of UNB, you have 8 years from the date you enter a program to complete your program. You can stay longer if you change programs.

So, his credits would be 'on file' when he returned. He may have to obtain 18 credits from an institution to become academically eligible if he has not taken any courses while playing pro.

This would also apply to Grad-school. However, depending on how long he was away, some courses may have to be taken again as the content might have changed too much - this would vary school-by-school/degree-to-degree.

Also, say that this player that played at one institution prior to playing in the ECHL and opts to return to finish his studies (or start his post-grad studies) at another institution. How would that work?

Sorry for all of the questions, I'm just trying to educate myself here.

For undergrad - the new school would review his transcript and decide which courses were eligible and which were not. Also, they may ask for him to complete 18 credit hours on-line or complete the first term on academic probation. Once completed, he would be in the program. Same for Grad-school if part-way through.

A new Grad-school applicant would just start in September like any new student.

If he choses to play hockey - the years already played at his old CIS school would count, the years of pro (after his 21st birthday) would count and he would have to sit one year from the last time he played pro.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

There is also no age limit on every sport but football in the CIS. There was a woman old enough to be most competitors' mother who had gone back to school and competed in cross county for UNB a few years ago. There was a PHd student at Saskatchewan, from England, who played for their varsity soccer team last year.

As far as I know, football is the only CIS sport to recently add an age limit. There were concerns, safety and "fairness" concerns, that kids right out of high school were playing against guys in their mid to late 20's who had played US college ball and bounced around in semi-pro ball before being recruited to play CIS football.

 

[Drummer]

FreddtFoyle Post: There's no stop clock on graduation in the CIS. You just have a maximum of five years of playing eligibility as a student athlete. Regardless of age or when he opts to return?

Regardless of age or when he opts to return?

Currently there is no age limit in the CIS, but cases like Mike Danton-30 and Hayley Wickenheiser-32 have gotten people talking about having one.

You can play a year of CIS(at the age of 20), take a 4 year break (travel the world) and return when you are 23 and play your remaining 4 years until you are 27.

So - there is no time limit as to when your 5 years will end.

Most schools have time limits as to how long you can remain in a program mainly to stop people from taking one class a year for 12-20 years (by the time you're done, your first courses are too old to be worth anything). Unless the athlete took a very long break, it's likely he can keep his credits and play his 5 years, within the schools time limit for the program, without it being an issue.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

The institutional "stop clocks" on degree continuation at most Canadian schools only matter for continuous attendance. It is to "encourage" the perma-students to move on and get on with life.

There are also anecdotal cases of some individuals with expensive health care or other issues that aren't covered by the provincial health plan, but are covered by the student plan, who are working and dragging out school just to stay on the generous health plan coverage. In this case, you'd get forced out after 7 or 8 years at most schools.

However, if you start your degree as a full-time student, and then stop to work or start a family, you can come back anytime as a "mature student" and that 7 or 8 year "stop clock" would start all over again. This would be the same for hockey players. However if you play five or more years of pro hockey you're going to burn up all of your CIS eligibility.

And as Drummer indicated, you could say play 2 years of CIS hockey, leave school to take care of your family or just work because you're broke or doing badly at school, and then come back 2, 5, or 10 years later. As long as you haven't burned any years of eligibility playing pro hockey you could come back to the same school and still have 3 years of eligibility left ... as long as you can make the team.

 

[Oilers Chick]

There is also no age limit on every sport but football in the CIS. There was a woman old enough to be most competitors' mother who had gone back to school and competed in cross county for UNB a few years ago. There was a PHd student at Saskatchewan, from England, who played for their varsity soccer team last year.

As far as I know, football is the only CIS sport to recently add an age limit. There were concerns, safety and "fairness" concerns, that kids right out of high school were playing against guys in their mid to late 20's who had played US college ball and bounced around in semi-pro ball before being recruited to play CIS football.

I would think that the same rule could one day be implemented to include Men's Basketball too, since it seems to be a similar scenario, or one that could be developing.

I wanted to get back to what you said about Lee and Salituro for a moment regarding two players who went from the NCAA to the CIS. Was their academic eligibility and/or requirements met? Were they affected in anyway? If so, how?

I remember reading some time back about a non-hockey student-athlete who transferred from, I believe it was McGill's but not absolutely positive so please don't quote me on that one, that got through the NCAA Clearinghouse, but had taken courses that his new institution deemed as "academically ineligible" due to not meeting his new institution's (not the NCAA's) course credits requirement. I would assume that same would apply to an NCAA student going to the CIS as well, correct? I'm not talking about some "Mickey Mouse" type of class here either. I'm talking about a course such as in Business, English, Math or the like.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

I wanted to get back to what you said about Lee and Salituro for a moment regarding two players who went from the NCAA to the CIS. Was their academic eligibility and/or requirements met? Were they affected in anyway? If so, how?

I remember reading some time back about a non-hockey student-athlete who transferred from, I believe it was McGill's but not absolutely positive so please don't quote me on that one, that got through the NCAA Clearinghouse, but had taken courses that his new institution deemed as "academically ineligible" due to not meeting his new institution's (not the NCAA's) course credits requirement. I would assume that same would apply to an NCAA student going to the CIS as well, correct? I'm not talking about some "Mickey Mouse" type of class here either. I'm talking about a course such as in Business, English, Math or the like.

First, there is no direct CIS equivalent to the NCAA Clearinghouse. Each CIS institution is responsible to determine the eligibility of their student-athletes, and sometimes they mess up. A couple of years ago a football player on the west coast changed schools for a MBA program and therefore didn't have to red-shirt to continue playing football for his new school. Except it was learned during the season that he wasn't in the full MBA program, but in a "MBA-prep" or conditional acceptance status. The school had to forfeit the game(s) he played in since he was ineligible.

As for Lee and Salituro, I haven't spoke to them directly about what credits were accepted, or not, from Alaska and Robert Morris respectively. If I get a chance, maybe I'll ask them. But they don't have to answer, because in the CIS academic issues are all confidential. I'm not sure how it goes in the NCAA, but it is never publicly disclosed in the CIS why a student-athlete is not playing or leaves school. We don't even hear about on-ice suspensions - you have to pester the conference to find out. The only academic thing we hear about student-athletes is if they earn Academic All-Canadian status.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

I should add that whomever is responsible for eligibility in the varsity sports unit at a CIS school is expected to work with that school's admission office/Registrar to determine eligibility.

Basically a student-athlete is just like any other transfer student, except the athletics department might help them find their way through the paperwork. As some CIS schools the athletics eligibility person has direct access to the student academic database to monitor eligibility on an on-going basis (i.e make sure they don't drop too many classes at the drop date and become ineligible), but I don't know how common this is.

I would be surprised that a McGill student would have transfer credit issues; they're one of the top academic schools in Canada and ranked in the World Top 100. if a McGill student has trouble, than most Canadian students would have issues ...

 

[Alpine]

Being publicly funded institutions.............
I think that maybe CIS schools have to be wary if they fall within various federal and provincial Privacy or Personal Information laws.
Might be a slippery legal slope. So institutions will give out less rather than more info on individuals

 

[Oilers Chick]

First, there is no direct CIS equivalent to the NCAA Clearinghouse. Each CIS institution is responsible to determine the eligibility of their student-athletes, and sometimes they mess up. A couple of years ago a football player on the west coast changed schools for a MBA program and therefore didn't have to red-shirt to continue playing football for his new school. Except it was learned during the season that he wasn't in the full MBA program, but in a "MBA-prep" or conditional acceptance status. The school had to forfeit the game(s) he played in since he was ineligible.

As for Lee and Salituro, I haven't spoke to them directly about what credits were accepted, or not, from Alaska and Robert Morris respectively. If I get a chance, maybe I'll ask them. But they don't have to answer, because in the CIS academic issues are all confidential. I'm not sure how it goes in the NCAA, but it is never publicly disclosed in the CIS why a student-athlete is not playing or leaves school. We don't even hear about on-ice suspensions - you have to pester the conference to find out. The only academic thing we hear about student-athletes is if they earn Academic All-Canadian status.

In the NCAA it varies, and in many cases, the institution simply states that the student-athlete is deemed academically ineligible. Now this is likely because he couldn't get through the NCAA Clearinghouse. This is almost always due to one of two reasons - grades or incomplete transcripts received/late filing. There was a Clarkson hockey player a few years back that had his eligibility delayed because he didn't get all of his transcripts in by the due date. Apparently there was some sort of snafu that occurred when they were sent in. When it finally got all sorted out, he was eligible to play.

Getting back to one of my previous questions, have you or anyone else hear of a student-athlete who have taken courses at a previous NCAA institution that were deemed non-transferable under a CIS institution's rules for course credits? The one I mentioned earlier was rather a unique case because it was the first and only time that I've heard about such an instance.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

In the NCAA it varies, and in many cases, the institution simply states that the student-athlete is deemed academically ineligible. Now this is likely because he couldn't get through the NCAA Clearinghouse. This is almost always due to one of two reasons - grades or incomplete transcripts received/late filing. There was a Clarkson hockey player a few years back that had his eligibility delayed because he didn't get all of his transcripts in by the due date. Apparently there was some sort of snafu that occurred when they were sent in. When it finally got all sorted out, he was eligible to play.

It is never public here, and therefore provides fodder for all sorts of rumours. "I hear so-and-so couldn't get into Alberta. How'd he get into StFX (or any AUS school ...)". You are at the mercy of each school's admission standards, which vary widely across Canada. Since eligibility is not disclosed, you have to rely on the same rumour mill to learn if a certain fomer U of Alberta hockey player was admitted to UNB's MBA program last season, and came to the V-Reds training camp, and found a roommate, and then changed his mind after a week of practice and went back home. He was never "officially" or publicly on campus. A ghost.

The CIS also doesn't have enforceable letters of commitment. All hockey players are free agents right up until their name goes on the official roster. There are all sorts of cases of hockey players who spend the summer at one school's hockey school, say they are going there, and then suddenly in September reappear at a rival. Happens too often in the AUS conference. There is a fairly new kind of letter of intent in the CIS, but it really isn't binding and is more used to scare away competing recruiters. It may have the desired effect for some, but any student can unilaterally change his mind at any time and doesn't have to be "released" by his first school.

 

[gleanerguy]

There is also no age limit on every sport but football in the CIS. There was a woman old enough to be most competitors' mother who had gone back to school and competed in cross county for UNB a few years ago. There was a PHd student at Saskatchewan, from England, who played for their varsity soccer team last year.

As far as I know, football is the only CIS sport to recently add an age limit. There were concerns, safety and "fairness" concerns, that kids right out of high school were playing against guys in their mid to late 20's who had played US college ball and bounced around in semi-pro ball before being recruited to play CIS football.

UNB had a couple of mature cross country runners this year as well: Rob Jackson set a Canadian record in the 55-59 year old age group at a summer event, went to UNB this fall...was injured and so didn't factor at Atlantic event, but was nevertheless a varsity athlete at UNB. Alex Coffin of UNBSJ also represented UNB...he's early 40s, I believe.