Chooch's Top 20 Players List

[Transported Upstater]

Come on, let's not make this into a Lemieux-Gretzky debate...that was in another thread.

Let's stick to "analyzing" chooch's awesome hockey knowledge....gReTzKy SuXoRz!!!!

 

[chooch*]

Come on, let's not make this into a Lemieux-Gretzky debate...that was in another thread.

Let's stick to "analyzing" chooch's awesome hockey knowledge....gReTzKy SuXoRz!!!!

Get a life, man.

Perhaps Forsberg could have been on the list. But he's injured so many times reminds me a little of lindros.

I've watched and studied them all and that top 6 of Lemieux at centre with lafleur and Jagr on wings with orr and add Bourque on D and Hasek in goal, would be unbeatable. They could play anybody anywhere anytime any set of rules.

Thats my criteria. No special rules, Mario would take all the punishment in the world and still dominate them all. And no, gReTzKy does not SuXoRz. He was a great player too.

 

[nik jr]

actually not so bad. :O

 

[DFF]

Gretzky should be 1st on the list, at worst, 2nd.

Yzerman should be on there around Trottier.

 

[GKJ]

That Fedorov makes the list over Yzerman completely invalidates it.

I missed that because I was too busy looking at Patrick Roy's name be below Dominik Hasek's

 

[AGraveOne]

I see your point, but someone placing Lemieux ahead of Gretzky and Messier can definately have some validity. Lemieux didn't have the talent around him for the majority of the '80's that Gretzky did. Then he had cancer and then the dead puck era started. If the criteria happened to be pure talent as oppposed to numbers then I'm sure there are a great deal of knowledgeable fans that could make a case for Mario to be the greatest player of all time.

Just for the record, I consider Bobby Orr to be the best ever.

definitely...i should not have been so strong with that...more i just can't see any criteria that could rate Jagr and Lemieux above Gretzky and Messier.

Lemieux and Gretzky, rated on offensive skills, were to the 80s/early 90s what Orr was to his era. Stand-outs among their greatest peers, even making great players better around them...clearly. To me it is a very uncertain argument to claim any of them (Lemieux, Orr, Gretzky) being better than the others...

And sorry to even slightly angle it as a Gretzky versus Lemieux thing.

My point was to say that whatever your criteria, it is hard for me to imagine, outside of clear personal bias, a way to put both Lemieux and Jagr ahead of both Gretzky and Messier.

 

[Transported Upstater]

Get a life, man.

Perhaps Forsberg could have been on the list. But he's injured so many times reminds me a little of lindros.

I've watched and studied them all and that top 6 of Lemieux at centre with lafleur and Jagr on wings with orr and add Bourque on D and Hasek in goal, would be unbeatable. They could play anybody anywhere anytime any set of rules.

Thats my criteria. No special rules, Mario would take all the punishment in the world and still dominate them all. And no, gReTzKy does not SuXoRz. He was a great player too.

chooch, the bottom line is that you have a heavy bias with your opinions, and your list must be taken with a gigantic grain of salt. Actually, maybe a salt mine...

If you have watched all these guys play and come to your own opinions, fine. I can respect that. But it is clear that if you believe your list to be the best 20 players since 1971 or whatever, you aren't seeing the whole story when you watch hockey.

I've seen your anti-Wayne (among others) tirades, basically none of which hold water. It is not worth my time to explain my opinion any more than this post, and I am not even sure why I am responding to this one.

As for "getting a life"...you are the one who has staked his/her reputation on this board as one who is impossible to reason with and who intentionally and irrationally pollutes any thread involving certain non-francophone NHL players. Not me. So I have three words: Pot. Kettle. Black.

Back to the ignore list you go...

 

[Cawz]

I would have thought Iginla might be mentioned as a name missing from list.

For real? Iginla as one of the top 20 players in the last 35 years? Wow.

I noticed in your opening post that you said most are from the eastern conference. Is that becasue you are from the east and thats all you were able to watch back in the day? It would explain your amusing bias against Gretzky. I bet you hardly ever watched him back then.

 

[chooch*]

chooch, the bottom line is that you have a heavy bias with your opinions, and your list must be taken with a gigantic grain of salt. Actually, maybe a salt mine...

If you have watched all these guys play and come to your own opinions, fine. I can respect that. But it is clear that if you believe your list to be the best 20 players since 1971 or whatever, you aren't seeing the whole story when you watch hockey.

I've seen your anti-Wayne (among others) tirades, basically none of which hold water. It is not worth my time to explain my opinion any more than this post, and I am not even sure why I am responding to this one.

As for "getting a life"...you are the one who has staked his/her reputation on this board as one who is impossible to reason with and who intentionally and irrationally pollutes any thread involving certain non-francophone NHL players. Not me. So I have three words: Pot. Kettle. Black.

Back to the ignore list you go...

I'm sorry you feel that way. Staked my rep (sic)???

Anyway...I dont have any biases, just a feeling that if you're gonna play a certain way youre gonna get my respect. And not if you play like Dionne or Bure etc.Sorry.


...Forsberg is the bigger conundrum not Yzerman. Stevie Y was kind of like Denis Savard less flashy.

Guys on the bubble of my list were settled with a simple question...how would they have done when training camp broke on the 76/77 Canadiens?

Stevie Y even in his prime might have been a 2nd line centre at best with an aging Cournoyer on his wing. Forsberg wouldnt have been able to play on the first line. Too brittle, would have broke against the Bruins. Fedorov ..in his prime...oh yes, certainly would have lined up with Lafleur and Lemaire. Maybe wasnt consistent over the years but he was one of the best I saw in his prime - I'd have love to see Scotty coach him on the Habs. Stevei Y has nothing on him but a fanbase/ media thing happening.

 

[chooch*]

For real? Iginla as one of the top 20 players in the last 35 years? Wow.

I noticed in your opening post that you said most are from the eastern conference. Is that becasue you are from the east and thats all you were able to watch back in the day? It would explain your amusing bias against Gretzky. I bet you hardly ever watched him back then.

Maybe a guy from the West would have said Iginla I watched all players - east and west; of course you were lucky to get a coupleof West games a month until teh playoffs. I was never too thrilled with ligting up Murray Bannerman in teh 84 quarters to set all kinds of scoring records.

As Mike Keenan said recently...aww never mind I'll postthat later.

 

[JCD]

I'm sorry you feel that way. Staked my rep (sic)???

Anyway...I dont have any biases, just a feeling that if you're gonna play a certain way youre gonna get my respect. And not if you play like Dionne or Bure etc.Sorry.


...Forsberg is the bigger conundrum not Yzerman. Stevie Y was kind of like Denis Savard less flashy.

Guys on the bubble of my list were settled with a simple question...how would they have done when training camp broke on the 76/77 Canadiens?

Stevie Y even in his prime might have been a 2nd line centre at best with an aging Cournoyer on his wing. Forsberg wouldnt have been able to play on the first line. Too brittle, would have broke against the Bruins. Fedorov ..in his prime...oh yes, certainly would have lined up with Lafleur and Lemaire. Maybe wasnt consistent over the years but he was one of the best I saw in his prime - I'd have love to see Scotty coach him on the Habs. Stevei Y has nothing on him but a fanbase/ media thing happening.

Being that, in his prime, Fedorov lined up BEHIND Yzerman, I can say with absolute certainty that this little rant is oh-so-typical chooch BS.

 

[chooch*]

Being that, in his prime, Fedorov lined up BEHIND Yzerman, I can say with absolute certainty that this little rant is oh-so-typical chooch BS.

Sergei has a Hart (not a consolation Pearson), 120 points, a real Selke or 2 and is the fastest skater in the world in his prime. And he was tough. I dont think he was lined up behind anyone.

Izzerman was a lightweight.

 

[JCD]

Sergei has a Hart (not a consolation Pearson), 120 points, a real Selke or 2 and is the fastest skater in the world in his prime. And he was tough. I dont think he was lined up behind anyone.

Izzerman was a lightweight.

As usual, you would be completely wrong.

Only time Fedorov was the Wing's top center is the season Yzerman got hurt. That is the year he won the Hart and a Selke. Once Yzerman was back, Fedorov was second fiddle again.

 

[espo*]

Well,it's a list and as such it's your opinion so i respect that.

But man,you've got number 99# at 12 while having Jagr at 4 ?

I dunno,that does'nt make a lot of sense to me.Gretzky was not just the most dominant hockey player of all time (at least statistically,and really,numbers like his don't lie) he was the most dominant ATHLETE of the decade of the 1980's.One of the greatest,if not THE greatest player i ever had the pleasure of watching. He's at 12# ?

I certainly will give you marks for having balls!!

 

[KariyaIsGod*]

Well,it's a list and as such it's your opinion so i respect that.

But man,you've got number 99# at 12 while having Jagr at 4 ?

I dunno,that does'nt make a lot of sense to me.Gretzky was not just the most dominant hockey player of all time (at least statistically,and really,numbers like his don't lie) he was the most dominant ATHLETE of the decade of the 1980's.One of the greatest,if not THE greatest player i ever had the pleasure of watching. He's at 12# ?

I certainly will give you marks for having balls!!

It has nothing to do with balls.

chooch hates Gretzky... He has for a very long time.

 

[espo*]

It has nothing to do with balls.

chooch hates Gretzky... He has for a very long time.

oh,was'nt aware of that.Tough to have gretzky at 12# that's for sure.

 

[Ogopogo*]

I saw my first game at the Forum in 1971, Dryden v. Dryden in nets, Crozier v. Bowman behind the benches, the Big M scoring a goal. I've seen and played way too much hockey since then, more than I should have, albeit primarily in Montreal and Toronto.

I have my preferences for divisions and the like as some of you may know but I try to be fair to players from all countries. I just didn't see a lot of Soviet players; Yakushev and Kharlamov and Mikhailov etc were seen for just brief moments that for a hockey fan ended way too soon.

Here's my Top 20 since 1971 - thats 35 years, based on sheer domination against top opponents and other criteria. Surprisingly, most players are from the Eastern division and are what can be rightfully considered as 2 way players. No guys who I would have yelled at had someone played with their style on my local rink. No Dionnes, Bossy's, Brett Hull's or Bure's or other one way/no checking guys on this list. Mostly centres, a few defencemen, a couple of wingers and goalies :

1. Mario Lemieux
2. Dominic Hasek
3. Bobby Orr
4. Jaromir Jagr
5. Guy Lafleur
6. Phil Esposito
7. Patrick Roy
8. Ray Bourque
9. Ken Dryden
10. Bryan Trottier
11. Vlad Tretiak
12. Wayne Gretzky
13. Peter Stastny
14. Denis Potvin
15. Larry Robinson
16. Bobby Clarke
17. Mark Messier
18. Brad Park
19. Sergei Fedorov
20. Yvan Cournoyer

H.M: Guy Lapointe and Pete Mahovlich, the best centre not in the Hall

I am shocked you put Gretzky so high.

 

[Randall Graves*]

I am shocked you put Gretzky so high.

Fedorov >>>> Gretzky

 

[Cawz]

I watched all players - east and west; of course you were lucky to get a coupleof West games a month until teh playoffs. I was never too thrilled with ligting up Murray Bannerman in teh 84 quarters to set all kinds of scoring records.

So you are basing youre opinions of Gretzky based on one playoff series (I assume you were talking about 1985, right?)

You sure have lots of opinions about Gretzky, considering you were lucky to get a couple of west games a month until the playoffs. So I guess that means that aside from the playoffs, you were only able to watch Gretzky play a couple times a season back in the 80s? Doesnt really make you all that informed on the subject, now does it. Especially considering how much you post about Gretzky.

And for the record, during the playoffs you were trying to allude to, Bannerman and the Blackhawks won 2 games vs Gretzky and the Oilers. That year, the Oilers swept the Jets, swept the Kings and beat the Flyers 4-1. Plus, the Oilers scored 8 goals in their last game vs the Jets, the Blackhawks and the Flyers.

Also plus, Gretzky scored 208 points that season, over 70 points better than the rest of the league. Are you going to blame that on Bannerman too?

 

[chooch*]

So you are basing youre opinions of Gretzky based on one playoff series (I assume you were talking about 1985, right?)

You sure have lots of opinions about Gretzky, considering you were lucky to get a couple of west games a month until the playoffs. So I guess that means that aside from the playoffs, you were only able to watch Gretzky play a couple times a season back in the 80s? Doesnt really make you all that informed on the subject, now does it. Especially considering how much you post about Gretzky.

And for the record, during the playoffs you were trying to allude to, Bannerman and the Blackhawks won 2 games vs Gretzky and the Oilers. That year, the Oilers swept the Jets, swept the Kings and beat the Flyers 4-1. Plus, the Oilers scored 8 goals in their last game vs the Jets, the Blackhawks and the Flyers.

Also plus, Gretzky scored 208 points that season, over 70 points better than the rest of the league. Are you going to blame that on Bannerman too?

You're right maybe I didnt see him enough, maybe he shouldnt have made the list.

As for 1985, I'll post on that much later including what Keenan said. I dont want to tick you off tonight.

ps. I saw him over 300 times in total. estimated. He was also watching the World Cup final yesterday on the roof of his restaurant.

 

[chooch*]

I am shocked you put Gretzky so high.

I'm being kind. I mean Fedorov scored 120 points and won the Selke and Hart all in the same year....

.........I always liked 99, I think 12th since 1971 (with no Russians included) is an honest account of his play no matter what Cam Cole or Mark Spector, etc think.
I dont think that takes balls (maybe Hasek over Orr does - though no one has complained about that).

ps. I didnt include Tom Dunderdale, Ogo, never saw him play.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain*]

Sergei has a Hart (not a consolation Pearson), 120 points, a real Selke or 2 and is the fastest skater in the world in his prime. And he was tough. I dont think he was lined up behind anyone.

Izzerman was a lightweight.

You think the Pearson is a consolation prize? I would rather have the Pearson then the hart..... When the hell was Fedorov ever tough? Yzerman had 155 points one year much better then Fedorov's 120 that you speak of. Also how come Fedorov was always the second line center when Yzerman was in the line-up? Oh and how does a guy who has more assists then anyone has points rank 12th in the best players since 1971. Im being nice when I say your list stinks.

 

[Cawz]

You're right maybe I didnt see him enough, maybe he shouldnt have made the list.

As for 1985, I'll post on that much later including what Keenan said. I dont want to tick you off tonight.

ps. I saw him over 300 times in total. estimated. He was also watching the World Cup final yesterday on the roof of his restaurant.

You quoting someone's opinion wont tick me off. Opinions are like *******s - everyones got one, although many are full of ****.

Did you include seeing Gretzky on the roof as one of the 300 times?

How many times did you see him when he was racking up 200 points in a season? Like many here, I'm sure it was only a handfull of times a year before the playoffs started.

 

[charlio lemieux*]

You think the Pearson is a consolation prize? I would rather have the Pearson then the hart..... When the hell was Fedorov ever tough? Yzerman had 155 points one year much better then Fedorov's 120 that you speak of. Also how come Fedorov was always the second line center when Yzerman was in the line-up? Oh and how does a guy who has more assists then anyone has points rank 12th in the best players since 1971. Im being nice when I say your list stinks.

Hear hear. I agree.

(Stevie Y, mentioned above)
Ron Francis?
Joe Sakic?
Peter Forsberg?
Marcel Dionne?
Adam Oates?
Brett Hull?

Instead chooch, you have Brad Park & Sergei Fedorov.

They really did have better drugs in the 70's.

 

[RUSqueelin*]

You quoting someone's opinion wont tick me off. Opinions are like *******s - everyones got one, although many are full of ****.

Did you include seeing Gretzky on the roof as one of the 300 times?

How many times did you see him when he was racking up 200 points in a season? Like many here, I'm sure it was only a handfull of times a year before the playoffs started.

You can't actually take it seriously. I've read his response a couple of hundred times - Gretzky played in the weak West and not in the East where he would have got beat up by real men. Didn't you realize the only reason he racked up all those points was because of the conference he played in????? It's pure fallacy but hey, its sports, anybody can take person or event and shape their argument however they want to fit their opinion.

Apparently I have too much time on my hands sometimes but I actually read through complete 20 pages threads where he so passionately tryings to argue logic and fact with his own dwarfed opinion and bias. All his aruguments where debuffed in one way or another but it kept going around in circles. Like the stat proving that Gretzky actually averaged more points a game against eastern opponents then western opponents, the balanced scheduale in the early 80's etc etc. Yet, Wayne wouldn't have dominated in the East. Yep.

But hey, an opinion is an opinion. If someone wanted to put Domi on top of the list, are they wrong. Nope. It's their opinion.