Chooch's Top 20 Players List

Status
Not open for further replies.

charlio lemieux*

Guest
Top 20 forwards ever? Francis should not even be mentioned. He had a great career and it was very long but he is not even near being top 20 ever, maybe in the top 50 or 60 but maybe not. Brett Hull is a top 20 goal scorer for sure. But top 20 in overall forwards? I'm not sure. Dionne is very underrated for his career but if he is top 20 it is at the end of the top 20. I don't think Sakic is top 20 nor Forsberg.


Ya right, but let me guess, you think Alfredsson is one of the top 10 players in the league right now?
:biglaugh:

Okay whatever.
 

alanschu

Registered User
Aug 12, 2005
8,657
912
Edmonton, Alberta
BTW which one is it:
alanschu wrote " the old school instructional video that Gretzky made in 1986 (Wayne Gretzky: Hockey My Way) had an entire segment dedicated to him getting creamed with body checks"... or what you wrote...??

Both. Gretzky wasn't immune to getting hit big. But he did a good job avoiding them. He had tons of practice, as he'd been avoiding players taking runs at him all his life.
 

Sens Rule

Registered User
Sep 22, 2005
21,251
73
LMFAO :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

Nice Homer Glasses you got there.

You are trying to pick a fight.

Alfredsson was 5th in points, 4th in points per game, 9th in goals was one of the best players on the powerplay and was 8th in powerplay points. He was a top penalty killer and was 3rd in shorthanded goals. He was 7th in the NHL in takeaways. He was 4th in voting for the Selke trophy. Was the best player on a Senators team that had many great players.

He finished 5th in Hart trophy voting. So he was voted the 5th most valuable player in the NHL. And I am very confident that if the voting for the Pearson trophy was released, the trophy the actual players vote on, Alfie would be in the top 10 players.
 

Sens Rule

Registered User
Sep 22, 2005
21,251
73
I thought there were only 3 nominees for the trophies. Where did you hear he was 5th in Hart votes?

They listed it in the Ottawa Citizen the day after the awards but they only listed the Sens players. They have in previous years released a list of all the players that got votes. I have been looking for a complete list for this year, as have others on this forumn but it seems to have not been released. If anyone knows post them in the Awards thread in the History section.

I know Chara was 4th in Norris voting and Redden was 5th, Alfie was 4th in Hart voting.

I think they never release the totals for the Pearson but that would be interesting to see who got the votes from the players.
 

charlio lemieux*

Guest
You are trying to pick a fight.

Alfredsson was 5th in points, 4th in points per game, 9th in goals was one of the best players on the powerplay and was 8th in powerplay points. He was a top penalty killer and was 3rd in shorthanded goals. He was 7th in the NHL in takeaways. He was 4th in voting for the Selke trophy. Was the best player on a Senators team that had many great players.

He finished 5th in Hart trophy voting. So he was voted the 5th most valuable player in the NHL. And I am very confident that if the voting for the Pearson trophy was released, the trophy the actual players vote on, Alfie would be in the top 10 players.

Alfie played on the best line in Hockey, on one of the three best teams in Hockey. He should be near or at the top of every category. Can you say "inflated stats"? I know he is a good player but he is not a top 10 forward.
In no order:
Sakic
Forsberg
Sundin
Elias
Hossa
Jagr
Thornton
Kovalchuk
Iginla
Ovechkin
Crosby

Alfie is still in with some very good players. Somewhere?
Heatley
Demitra
Naslund
Gaborik
Gomez
Smyth
Lecavalier
Richards
St.Louis
Spezza
Briere
Jokinen
Staal
Hejduk
Tanguay
Zetterberg
Datsyuk
etc.
 

Sens Rule

Registered User
Sep 22, 2005
21,251
73
Alfie played on the best line in Hockey, on one of the three best teams in Hockey. He should be near or at the top of every category. Can you say "inflated stats"? I know he is a good player but he is not a top 10 forward.
In no order:
Sakic
Forsberg
Sundin
Elias
Hossa
Jagr
Thornton
Kovalchuk
Iginla
Ovechkin
Crosby

Alfie is still in with some very good players. Somewhere?
Heatley
Demitra
Naslund
Gaborik
Gomez
Smyth
Lecavalier
Richards
St.Louis
Spezza
Briere
Jokinen
Staal
Hejduk
Tanguay
Zetterberg
Datsyuk
etc.

He finished 5th in the Hart trophy race. He played alot of the season on a line with Smolinski at both the start and end of the season and not with Heatley or Spezza.

Alfie has got over a point per game in 5 of the last 6 seasons. The only other players who have done that are Jagr who also did it 5 times and Forsberg who did it all 5 years he played (he missed a season). And in previous years Alfredsson was on a line with guys like Todd White and other not so great players. Sure he gets to be on a good PP unit but his point totals aren't inflated.

Alfredsson is a very good 2-way player something that many on your list are not. Kovalchuk is not better than Alfredsson. He is a better scorer but Alfie does everything well. He is a top PK guy and a top PP guy and great at even strength.

You clearly have a hard on for attacking Alfie as about 20% of your 50 posts are attacking Alfredsson.
 

charlio lemieux*

Guest
He finished 5th in the Hart trophy race. He played alot of the season on a line with Smolinski at both the start and end of the season and not with Heatley or Spezza.

Alfie has got over a point per game in 5 of the last 6 seasons. The only other players who have done that are Jagr who also did it 5 times and Forsberg who did it all 5 years he played (he missed a season). And in previous years Alfredsson was on a line with guys like Todd White and other not so great players. Sure he gets to be on a good PP unit but his point totals aren't inflated.

Alfredsson is a very good 2-way player something that many on your list are not. Kovalchuk is not better than Alfredsson. He is a better scorer but Alfie does everything well. He is a top PK guy and a top PP guy and great at even strength.

You clearly have a hard on for attacking Alfie as about 20% of your 50 posts are attacking Alfredsson.


Yes Alfredsson, who got all those points either getting softer minutes behind the likes of Hossa and Yashin, or playing on the best line in Hockey. He is an over rated player, and the reason the Sens can't win the cup. That is my oppinion. If it P!sses you off, too bad.

Still doesn't make him a top 10 forward.
 

Sens Rule

Registered User
Sep 22, 2005
21,251
73
Yes Alfredsson, who got all those points either getting softer minutes behind the likes of Hossa and Yashin, or playing on the best line in Hockey. He is an over rated player, and the reason the Sens can't win the cup. That is my oppinion. If it P!sses you off, too bad.

Still doesn't make him a top 10 forward.

Actually he is a top 4 forward right now as he was fifth in Hart voting and one of those ahead of him was a goalie.
 

charlio lemieux*

Guest
Actually he is a top 4 forward right now as he was fifth in Hart voting and one of those ahead of him was a goalie.

LMFAO :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

All him right? LMAO

Played half the season infront of one of the best goalies ever. Played most of the season on the best line in hockey. Played the entire season infront of one of the top defense corps in the league.

You know what I see? Inflated. Inflated. Inflated. All adds up to being over-rated.

I have no doubt he is in the top 20-30 forwards in the league. But he is still over-rated at being put in the top 10.
 

Sens Rule

Registered User
Sep 22, 2005
21,251
73
LMFAO :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

All him right? LMAO

Played half the season infront of one of the best goalies ever. Played most of the season on the best line in hockey. Played the entire season infront of one of the top defense corps in the league.

You know what I see? Inflated. Inflated. Inflated. All adds up to being over-rated.

I have no doubt he is in the top 20-30 forwards in the league. But he is still over-rated at being put in the top 10.

Well apparently your opinion as a troll on a hockey board site where most of your posts are made just to incite anger or to make fun of people is not shared by hockey writers that watch tons of hockey games or actual NHL players.

Now I would trust their opinions as to who is a better forward over yours but that is just me.
 

David Puddy

Registered User
Nov 15, 2003
5,824
2
New Jersey, USA
Visit site
I thought there were only 3 nominees for the trophies. Where did you hear he was 5th in Hart votes?
There are three finalists. The hockey writers, broadcasters and general managers vote for whom they think are the deserving players. The top three vote getters are announced as finalists around the start of he 2nd Round, and the winner of the three is announced at the awards banquet after the Finals.

Here is the thread with many of the vote totals.
 

Ogopogo*

Guest
There are three finalists. The hockey writers, broadcasters and general managers vote for whom they think are the deserving players. The top three vote getters are announced as finalists around the start of he 2nd Round, and the winner of the three is announced at the awards banquet after the Finals.

Here is the thread with many of the vote totals.

Actually, there are no finalists at all. There are the votes and then, to make the award ceremony more dramatic and interesting, they announce the top 3 vote-getters as finalists.

The votes are tabulated before the playoffs ever start the "finalist" designation is meaningless.
 

chooch*

Guest
So, you believe that the entire NHL feared Semenko so much that they let Gretzky light them up every night - simply because Gretzky didn't have a serious injury during the 80?

I don't buy it. You admit to watching Gretz play only twice per year, I think you missed a few things.

I can tell you you miss the point, my friend, when you keep bringing up Semenko.

Its not as bad as your assessment of Gretzky' s performeance in the 3 game sweep of the Habs. Thats truly funny to anyone who watched it as I did rather than read the stats in a Hockey book 25 years later. (here's a clue - the reason the Oilers won was "A.M.").

Looks like I saw him "twice per year" more than you did.


btw - Alfredsson is a great player too. I'd put Forsberg and a few others ahead of him for now.
 

Bring Back Bucky

Registered User
May 19, 2004
9,997
3,071
Canadas Ocean Playground
I can tell you you miss the point, my friend, when you keep bringing up Semenko.

Its not as bad as your assessment of Gretzky' s performeance in the 3 game sweep of the Habs. Thats truly funny to anyone who watched it as I did rather than read the stats in a Hockey book 25 years later. (here's a clue - the reason the Oilers won was "A.M.").
Looks like I saw him "twice per year" more than you did.


btw - Alfredsson is a great player too. I'd put Forsberg and a few others ahead of him for now.



I watched that series, too, chooch. Moog was great but in my recollection it was the offence of Gretzky et. al as 99 put the 'pimp in the pocket' that marked the arrival of the 80's Oilers in that whitewashing.
 

charlio lemieux*

Guest
Well apparently your opinion as a troll on a hockey board site where most of your posts are made just to incite anger or to make fun of people is not shared by hockey writers that watch tons of hockey games or actual NHL players.

Now I would trust their opinions as to who is a better forward over yours but that is just me.


OK sensrule, you put them in order then. You say Alfie is top 10 put them in order. Who's he better than?

Sakic
Forsberg
Sundin
Elias
Hossa
Jagr
Thornton
Kovalchuk
Iginla
Ovechkin
Crosby
Alfredsson
Heatley
Demitra
Naslund
Gaborik
Gomez
Smyth
Lecavalier
Richards
St.Louis
Spezza
Briere
Jokinen
Staal
Hejduk
Tanguay
Zetterberg
Datsyuk
 

chooch*

Guest
I am quoting myself.... This list impressed me as it was from Chooch and Gretzky was on the list. :sarcasm: If you look at the list it is of only 20 players over a 35 year time frame. There are not many players that should not be there. He left off some great players but the list is only of 20 players. The only guy that really doesn't deserve to be there is Cournoyer. You can argue Fedorov shouldn't be there but at one time for a couple of seasons he might have been the best hockey player in the world.

Anyway any list of only the top 20 players over a 35 year period would draw criticism of those left off of it. Chooch went with 5 goalies including Tretiak and 5 defenceman. That leaves room for only 10 forwards. Some will disagree with some of his selections but he is getting more flak for this than he should becuase he is Chooch. Many other Posters would probably make a controvesial list as well. Chooch did a good job of representing players from the entire era as well and not bloating it with just one generation of players.

This isn't that bad a list.

Thanks. Maybe Forsberg, or a Sakic could be on it and maybe some of the order can be different a little but hey thats my list. I have no doubt also that some Soviets or a Hlinka might have made it with greater exposure to their play.
 

OvechkinDomination*

Guest
Awards

Gretzky's statue at Rexall Place, EdmontonHe won nine Hart Trophies, the NHL's most valuable player award, and eight of these were awarded in consecutive years from 1980-1987. Gretzky holds the record for most MVP awards of any player in North American professional sports.

Hart Memorial Trophy (most valuable player) – 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1989
Art Ross Trophy (scoring champion) – 1981, 1982 ,1983 ,1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1990, 1991, 1994
Conn Smythe Trophy (playoff most valuable player) – 1985, 1988
Lester B. Pearson Award (outstanding player, voted by the players) – 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1987
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy (sportsmanship) – 1980, 1991, 1992, 1994, 1999
NHL Plus/Minus Award (best plus-minus rating) – 1982, 1984, 1985, 1987
Chrysler-Dodge/NHL Performer of the Year – 1985, 1986, 1987
Lester Patrick Trophy (outstanding service to hockey in the United States) – 1994
NHL All-Star Game MVP – 1983, 1989, 1999
NHL First All-Star Team – 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1991
NHL Second All-Star Team – 1980, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1994, 1997, 1998

Regular Season Records (40)
Most goals: 894 in 1,487 games
Most goals, including playoffs: 1,016 in 1,487 regular season and 208 playoff games
Most goals, one season: 92 in 1981-82, 80-game schedule
Most goals, one season, including playoffs: 100 in 1983-84, 87 goals in 74 regular season games and 13 goals in 19 playoff games
Most goals, 50 games from start of season: 61 in 1981-82 (Oct. 7, 1981 to Jan. 22, 1982, 80-game schedule) and 1983-84 (Oct. 5, 1983 to Jan. 25, 1984), 80-game schedule
Most goals, one period: 4 (Tied with 10 other players) Feb. 18, 1981
Most assists: 1,963
Most assists, including playoffs: 2,223
Most assists, one season: 163 in 1985-86, 80-game schedule
Most assists, one season, including playoffs: 174 in 1985-86, 163 assists in 80 regular season games and 11 assists in 10 playoff games
Most assists, one game: 7 (tied with Billy Taylor) done three times -- Feb. 15, 1980; Dec. 11, 1985; Feb. 14, 1986
Most assists, one road game: 7 (tied with Billy Taylor) Dec. 11, 1985.
Most points: 2,857 in 1,485 games (894 goals, 1,963 assists)
Most points, including playoffs: 3,239 in 1,485 regular season and 208 playoff games. (1016 goals, 2223 assists)
Most points, one season: 215 in 1985-86, 80-game schedule (52 goals, 163 assists)
Most points, one season, including playoffs: 255 in 1984-85; 208 points in 80 regular season games and 47 points in 18 playoff games
Most overtime assists, career: 15
Most goals by a centre, career: 894
Most goals by a centre, one season: 92 in 1981-82, 80-game schedule
Most assists by a centre, career: 1,963
Most assists by a centre, one season: 163 in 1985-86, 80-game schedule
Most points by a centre, career: 2,856
Most points by a centre, one season: 215 in 1985-86, 80-game schedule
Most assists in one game by a player in his first season: 7 on Feb. 15, 1980
Highest goals-per-game average, one season: 1.18 in 1983-84, 87 goals in 74 games
Highest assists-per-game average, career (300 min.): 1.321 -- 1,963 assists in 1,485 games
Highest assists-per-game average, one season: 2.04 in 1985-86, 163 assists in 80 games
Highest points-per-game average, one season (among players with 50-or-more points): 2.77 in 1983-84, 205 points in 74 games
Most 40-or-more goal season: 12 in 20 seasons
Most consecutive 40-or-more goal season: 12 from 1979-80 to 1990-91
Most 50-or-more goal seasons: 9 (tied with Mike Bossy)
Most 60-or-more goal seasons: 5 (tied with Mike Bossy)
Most consecutive 60-or-more goals seasons: 4 from 1981-82 to 1984-85
Most 100-or-more point seasons: 15
Most consecutive 100-or-more point seasons: 13 from 1979-80 to 1991-92
Most three-or-more goal games, career: 50 -- 37 three-goal (hat trick) games; nine four-goal games; four five-goal games
Most three goal games, one season: 10 (done twice) in 1981-82 and 1983-84
Longest consecutive assist scoring streak: 23 games in 1990-91, 48 assists
Longest consecutive point-scoring streak: 51 Games in 1983-84 (Oct. 5, 1983 to Jan. 28, 1984, 61goals, 92 assists for 153 points)
Longest consecutive point-scoring streak from start of season: 51 in 1983-84; 61 goals, 92 assists for 153 points (Oct. 5, 1983 to Jan. 28, 1984)
[edit]
Playoff Records (15)
Most playoff goals, career: 122
Most playoff assists, career: 260
Most assists, one playoff year: 31 in 1988 (19 games)
Most assists in one series (other than final): 14 (tied with Rick Middleton) in 1985 Conference Finals (six games vs. Chicago)
Most assists in final series: 10 in 1988 (four games, plus suspended game vs. Boston)
Most assists, one playoff game: 6 (tied with Mikko Leinonen) on April 9, 1987
Most assists, one playoff period: 3 -- Three assists by one player in one period of a playoff game has been recorded on 70 occasions. Gretzky has had three assists in one period five times.
Most points, career: 382 -- 122 goals and 260 assists
Most points, one playoff year: 47 in 1985 (17 goals and 30 assists in 18 games)
Most points in final series: 13 in 1988 three goals and 10 assists (four games plus suspended game vs. Boston, three goals)
Most points, one playoff period: 4 (tied with nine other players)
Most short-handed goals, one playoff year: 3 (tied with five other players) 1983
Most short-handed goals, one playoff game: 2 (tied with eight other players) April 6, 1983
Most game winning goals in playoffs, career: 24
Most three-or-more goals games (hat trick): 10 (eight three-goal games, two four-goal games)
[edit]
All-Star Records (6)
Most All-Star game goals: 13 (in 18 games played)
Most All-Star game goals, one game: 4 (tied with three players) 1983 Campbell Conference
Most All-Star game goals, one period: 4 1983 Campbell Conference, third period
Most All-Star game assists, career: 12 (tied with four players)
Most All-Star game points, career: 25 (13 goals, 12 assists in 18 games)
Most All-Star game points, one period: 4 (tied with Mike Gartner and Adam Oates) 1983 Campbell Conference, third period (four goals)

Unofficial Records
Along with his numerous official records, Wayne Gretzky also has many "unofficial" records. These other records are in fact records but have not found their way into the official record book (yet). Here is a list of some of his unofficial records.

Youngest player to score 50 goals in a season (19 years, two months).
Most points by an NHL player in his first year: 137. He was not considered a rookie in his first year, so the rookie record belongs to Teemu Selanne with 132.
Most assists by an NHL player in his first year: 86. The rookie record is co-held by Peter Stastny and Joe Juneau with 70 assists. Note that the record book gives Gretzky the record for most assists and points in a game as a first year player, but not the season totals.
Most 200 point seasons: 4. The NHL has a record for most 100 point seasons (owned by Gretzky), but not most 200 point seasons, probably because Gretzky is the only one who has scored 200 points.
Most consecutive 200 point seasons: 3.
Most 70 goal seasons: 4. The NHL has a record for most 60 goal seasons, but not 70. This is strange because many players have achieved 70 goals. Brett Hull has scored 70 goals three times.
Most consecutive 70 goal seasons: 4.
Most 80 goal seasons: 2.
Most 90 goal seasons: 1. As with 200 point seasons, Gretzky is the only player to achieve this.
Fastest 50 goals: 50 goals in 39 games. It is surprising that this isn’t an official record because time and time again, this record is labelled as the most difficult one to break of all of Gretzky’s records. The NHL has an official record for the most goals in 50 games, but not the fastest 50 goals.
Fastest 100 points: 34 games in 1983-84.
Most seasons averaging over 2 points a game: 10. Mario Lemieux did it six times.
Most 100 assist seasons: 11.
Most consecutive 100 assist seasons: 11.
Most NHL & WHA regular season assists: 2,027.
Most NHL & WHA regular season points: 2,967.
Most NHL & WHA regular season and playoff goals: 1,072 (one more than Gordie Howe).
Most NHL & WHA regular season and playoff assists: 2,297.
Most NHL & WHA regular season and playoff points: 3,369.
Most MVP awards (Hart Trophy): 9.
Most scoring championships (Art Ross Trophy): 10.
Largest margin of victory in the scoring race: 79 (in 1983-84)
Most official NHL records: 61 on retirement, 60 at present
These are just some of Gretzky’s "unofficial" scoring records. This list does not include a completely separate set of records. Those records are his "milestone" records. They include such records as:

Fastest 200 goals (242 games)
Fastest 500 goals (575 games)
Fastest 600 goals (718 games)
Fastest 700 goals (886 games)
Fastest 1000 points (424 games)
Etc. Gretzky holds virtually all of those "fastest" milestones.

Don't give me that *** bull!****. Any guy that owns all these records and has won as many awards as he has should be number one on anyone's list or at WORST, number second on anyone's list. No one will ever dominate the game like #99 did. Truly the Great One.
 

alanschu

Registered User
Aug 12, 2005
8,657
912
Edmonton, Alberta
OK sensrule, you put them in order then. You say Alfie is top 10 put them in order. Who's he better than?

Sakic
Forsberg
Sundin
Elias
Hossa
Jagr
Thornton
Kovalchuk
Iginla
Ovechkin
Crosby
Alfredsson
Heatley
Demitra
Naslund
Gaborik
Gomez
Smyth
Lecavalier
Richards
St.Louis
Spezza
Briere
Jokinen
Staal
Hejduk
Tanguay
Zetterberg
Datsyuk

Right off the bat, I'd toss these guys away right away. As soon as I saw the name I said "nope."

Demitra
Naslund
Gaborik
Gomez
Smyth
St.Louis
Spezza
Briere
Jokinen
Staal
Hejduk
Tanguay
Zetterberg
Datsyuk

That's half the names right there. If I sat down for more than a minute, I don't think it'd be very hard to squeeze Alfredsson into a top 10 position.
 

Forever27

Registered User
Aug 20, 2005
2,351
0
Kind of like your uninformed comment?

He's entirely right. Your list is arbitrary. I'm not sure I'd put Alfredsson at top 10 myself, but you offer a terrible, terrible argument. People always say "inflated stats" like it totally negates them. You haven't even tried to counter the arguement that he was fourth in Hart voting this year.

Though at least you've admitted it's just your opinion. But unless you consider the Hart Trophy to be a bias crapshoot then you have to admit, Alfredsson dominated this year.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->