Prospect Info: Chase Stillman (#29 overall)

Triumph

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I have opinions and even opinions on this, but my opinion that it is over the top to try and "correct" everyone who says "bottom 6" instead of 4th line outweighs the need to tell you are wrong about that in the first place. But...

My opinion- it is perfectly acceptable to say bottom 6 because I can't think of a single player who has played solely the 4th line and not been tried on the third for a few games here and there. If he makes it into the league and becomes a staple on the 4th line, odds are he will be put on the 3rd line from time to time, effectively making him a "bottom 6." If he is a scratch and/or spends most of his time in Utica only to come up for random games when needed to fill in on the 4th line, he is then not a 4th liner or bottom 6er, he is a tweener/AHL player getting his cup of coffee.

Second opinion- you don't need to try and "remind" every person who says bottom 6 that its not called that anymore, because odds are very good that they saw you say it before but just don't agree with you.

This is because we are at cross-purposes here - of course almost every '4th line' player eventually plays up because of injury or benchings or what have you, but we're trying to talk about future value to the team and that player's future role. We're trying to draw relatively broad strokes because we're speaking of the future.

The reason why I think 'top 6' and 'bottom 6' have had such staying power is that in the days of 3 forward power plays, ostensibly your top 6 forwards would play on the power play and the other guys wouldn't. So that's an easy dividing line, even if sometimes players from the other 2 lines might play there regularly and a 'bottom 6' forward is shorthand for one with enough ability to play in the NHL but not enough ability to play on the power play. Now that most teams run with 7 or 8 forward power plays, that's all out the window. We saw Bastian be on PP1 despite playing on the 4th line last year and Noesen did that for Carolina this year as well. So we need new criteria.

Some players will frequently go between the 3rd and 4th line, but most do not. We saw this here last year with Sharangovich and Boqvist, who were often healthy scratches but usually played farther up in the lineup when they got in there. The 4th line has a certain meaning in the NHL, and it's looked at differently - 4th lines dump the puck in more, they tend to play in the corners more, it's where some teams are still willing to play forwards with limited offensive ability if they can do other things.

If you plotted forwards ice time distributions with one another on a team-wide basis, you would probably see what I am talking about - that most of the top 9 forwards would have played with one another significantly more than they played with the 4th liners, who would mostly play with another. This doesn't quite work with the Devils because of how they use McLeod.

Chase Stillman has yet to show the kind of offensive ability that suggests that he can play in an NHL top 9 for any length of time. Players who have this kind of D+2 in the CHL almost never go on to have an NHL career, and even less often do they play up in the top 9 regularly. Perhaps he will someday, and maybe he will make that offensive jump at the NHL level - it won't be the first time it's happened. It's just very unlikely and when discussing prospects, I prefer to discuss the more likely outcomes.
 
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devilsblood

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Using a model that is strictly based on point production isn't a good tool to use for bottom 6 energy players like Chase Stillman.

Bader's model is great to help evaluate offensive players, but that's about it. So I wouldn't read too much into his model for a guy like Chase.
But 20% to be an NHL'r seems not bad really given his modest offensive production.

I also take a different tack on Stillman then you in that, yes if anything, he does look to be in the bottom 6 physical, energy guy, mold, but he does need to show more offense. Where I really differ though, and this is different then those that doubt Stillman as well, is I think he can develop those skills later in his development. Guys like Shara, Zetterlund and even Bratt, have gone from, non productive minor league players(Bratt in Sweden where he was OK) who don't really project to much of anything, to guys, who to various degrees can produce in the NHL, with Bratt now a top 6 level player.

Now, where as we've seen the Devils take some young guys who had offensive talent, and mold them into defensive fwds, ala McLeod, Foote, and somewhat similarly in Nemec as a d-man, I think they need to be wary of not focusing too much on Stillman being that type of player, and see if they can't inject some more finesse and offensive into his game in these next couple years of development.

And something that I noted was important earlier in this discussion is Stillman's skating ability, I don't really know how good it is, but if it is indeed a plus, then that would give his skills room to develop.
 

tailfins

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This is because we are at cross-purposes here - of course almost every '4th line' player eventually plays up because of injury or benchings or what have you, but we're trying to talk about future value to the team and that player's future role. We're trying to draw relatively broad strokes because we're speaking of the future.

The reason why I think 'top 6' and 'bottom 6' have had such staying power is that in the days of 3 forward power plays, ostensibly your top 6 forwards would play on the power play and the other guys wouldn't. So that's an easy dividing line, even if sometimes players from the other 2 lines might play there regularly and a 'bottom 6' forward is shorthand for one with enough ability to play in the NHL but not enough ability to play on the power play. Now that most teams run with 7 or 8 forward power plays, that's all out the window. We saw Bastian be on PP1 despite playing on the 4th line last year and Noesen did that for Carolina this year as well. So we need new criteria.

Some players will frequently go between the 3rd and 4th line, but most do not. We saw this here last year with Sharangovich and Boqvist, who were often healthy scratches but usually played farther up in the lineup when they got in there. The 4th line has a certain meaning in the NHL, and it's looked at differently - 4th lines dump the puck in more, they tend to play in the corners more, it's where some teams are still willing to play forwards with limited offensive ability if they can do other things.

If you plotted forwards ice time distributions with one another on a team-wide basis, you would probably see what I am talking about - that most of the top 9 forwards would have played with one another significantly more than they played with the 4th liners, who would mostly play with another. This doesn't quite work with the Devils because of how they use McLeod.

Chase Stillman has yet to show the kind of offensive ability that suggests that he can play in an NHL top 9 for any length of time. Players who have this kind of D+2 in the CHL almost never go on to have an NHL career, and even less often do they play up in the top 9 regularly. Perhaps he will someday, and maybe he will make that offensive jump at the NHL level - it won't be the first time it's happened. It's just very unlikely and when discussing prospects, I prefer to discuss the more likely outcomes.
Because Stillman doesn't score enough, the issue for me is that he's competing for a very limited set of NHL spots (realistically, he's probably competing just for RW4 or RW5). When projecting his likelihood to make the NHL, therefore, it's only his ability to solve for that position.

Most of the forwards on the fourth line bring some roster flexibility. Right now, Bastian plays some power play. Lazar, who can play that spot as well, can also play center / take faceoffs, and can be used on the PK. McLeod is a staple on the PK. Wood was used on PP2. Even Geertsen was able to slide between F/D.

To me, Stillman has to be a high energy guy and good PKer to have a shot. He's already at a disadvantage because he doesn't take draws. But, we'll see. The good news is that he's obvs much younger than Bastian and Lazar, and there's no need to rush him. We'll see what he becomes in 3-4 years.
 
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forceten

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I think I prefer top 9 and then the energy line to the top 6 bottom 6.

Mainly because there’s too much talent in the league to have two checking lines. And you need diverse scoring to win.

Also it sounds like the whole 9 yards and that’s easier to remember
 

Captain3rdLine

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FWIW Byron Bader's model gives Stillman a 1% chance at being a star and a 20% chance at being an NHLer today. His full comps are a bunch of busts, Valterri Filppula, Mikael Samuelsson, Darren Helm, and the incomparable Tom Sestito.
This is why models like that are just a tool and small part of the picture. Because at the end of the day there will be two players with similar numbers but hugely different chances of being an NHL player.

There’s some purely offensive kid out there with holes in his game putting up similar numbers who has no where near a 20% chance of making the NHL because his game won’t translate well.

Stillman on the other hand has a much better than 20% chance of making it because he brings a lot more to the game apart from production and his game is well rounded and should translate well. There isn’t really any holes in his game that will likely stop him from being at least a fringe NHL player and he plays a simple offensive game.

Anyone saying they could see him starting in the ECHL next year is just being stupid and not worth a response. There’s no chance in hell that happens. He’s good enough for the AHL right now and will play there next year.
 

Hischier and Hughes

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FWIW Byron Bader's model gives Stillman a 1% chance at being a star and a 20% chance at being an NHLer today. His full comps are a bunch of busts, Valterri Filppula, Mikael Samuelsson, Darren Helm, and the incomparable Tom Sestito.
i thought Filppula was a hard working player who did well for himself
 

Hischier and Hughes

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I think you've misinterpreted, the original post was not bothering to list out who the bunch of busts were, and then posting the successful players we remember.
ah okay figures i got mixedup lol

being nosy in places i probably shouldnt be

idrk anything about this Stillman but id take a Filppula-clone!
 

Guttersniped

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I put this in the AHL thread but I might as well put it here too.

They give a good sense of how he has projectable traits but underperformed quite a bit with production.

His biggest selling point by far has always been his motor. He has offensive skill and good skating. He looks like a player who should have scored more in juniors.

He was on a team where traded players scored less, but they were the 12th highest scoring team in the OHL in last season.

As the 2022 write-up mentioned, his D-1 production was on par for a 1st round pick and then COVID wiped out out most of his draft year. But you want to see more post-draft production in Canadian Juniors.

There’s a question about how good his hockey sense is though. You can see that score drop year by year below in Elite Prospects’ coverage of Stillman since he was drafted.

The worry is he might be a guy who keeps his feet moving rather than thinks and plays at high pace.

I also worry about how well Stillman plays defense. He wasn’t one of Peterborough’s 10 forwards with shorthanded points in 2022-23, which makes me wonder how big a role he played on the PK. He did have 3 SH assists in 2021-22.

He isn’t particularly big so I don’t see his physical game having that much of an impact. He looked legit in 2022-23 Development Camp scrimmages, he definitely stood out live. I can see why his lack of production was a bit of a head-scratcher. He’s not a talentless banger.

It’s not negative to be realistic about Stillman. He has projectable qualities though and that’s what still gives us a little hope here.

This is the grade guide for the Elite Prospect scores.
3E640B5E-2A30-4205-80CF-70ED96533960.png


This is FV (Future Value) score guide:
0D7D628A-B258-4AC7-8802-C6AAF23980A6.png


Stillman was 4.5 but dropped to 4.0 in 2023. They’re deliberately stingy so 4.5 is very common for ranked non-blue chip prospects.

Sep 29, 2021, NJD 11th Prospect Pool link
C968613A-E3CE-4C83-B011-170F284D2F0E.jpeg

Born out of the bounty that saw Travis Zajac and Kyle Palmieri go to the New York Islanders, the New Jersey Devils selected the human locomotive of the 2021 draft, Chase Stillman, with the 29th pick.

This excerpt from the Elite Prospects 2021 Draft Guide describes Stillman's game to a tee, "Call it motor or energy or engagement or drive -- Stillman has it. He is willing to go above and beyond, willing to play whatever role needed to the maximum of his ability to give his team the win. Every game for him, you saw constant pressure on the forecheck, constant pressure on the backcheck, and rapid close-outs in the defensive zone -- and speed, more speed than we remembered from the previous OHL season. There are better skaters than Stillman in the draft, but few who move with the same energy. The Sudbury Wolves forward finished with one of the best expected goals and offensive-zone retrievals per 60 at the [U-18] tournament."

Stillman is somewhat limited in terms of dynamic offensive qualities, more specifically in how his handling and skating blend together. He struggles to string actions together in motion, static feet being the main issue.

The St. Louis-born winger has a lot of qualities to like, however. On top of his already high motor, Stillman protects the puck at an above-average level, and generally can execute high-level plays. Plus peripheral vision, give-and-go ability, deception, and passing skills like one-touches, slips, and backhand facilitations highlight his game.

With a return to the OHL's Sudbury Wolves in the cards, Stillman will not only receive more opportunity to flex his motor, but the extra puck touches should help develop his playmaking even more. In the future, further defensive development, along with his high engagement level over the 200 feet of ice, should create a favourable situation for Stillman to become a useful bottom-six player.


Sep 30, 2022 NJD 11th Prospect Pool link
BB073A8E-74A3-43B4-B40C-6A2BA4C4D216.jpeg

Even my most pessimistic projection didn’t have Chase Stillman scoring just 49 points in 59 games. His draft-minus-one season featured less consistency than his peers but just as impressive highs as the best players in the age group. The midseason trade that sent him from a low-scoring team to an inconsistent, top-heavy one certainly didn’t help. However, it’s tough to see Stillman’s lack of success as anything other than disappointment.

There’s little doubt Stillman has the tools to be among the OHL’s leading scorers next season. It’s evident along the boards, where he combines finesse and power to pull pucks off the boards and step to the inside. Off the rush, he deceives opponents, then cuts across or drives the net. A quick, deceptive release houses a powerful shot, and when engaged, he shows the instincts necessary to support the shot.

Those impressive plays usually break up long stretches of limited impact. Stillman’s wasteful with touches in prime areas, blindly throwing pucks into space or trying to break through pressure himself with open teammates. A tendency to pass into defenders rather than around suggests he lacks the passing skill to access the lanes he identifies. And he often floats around and watches the play instead of taking an active hand in support or battling.

When Stillman’s engaged, he shows the off-puck instincts, positioning, and vision to link his numerous skills. In those moments, he looks like a potential top-nine with wrecking ball potential.


2023 NJD 11th Prospect Pool link
BED1CF5B-9FE6-4A59-8DB4-971669905623.jpeg

It's becoming increasingly difficult to try to justify or explain Chase Stillman's unremarkable counting stats.

He played a big role on a Memorial Cup contending team (albeit, one where many top prospects saw their bottom line dip) in his draft-plus-two season and didn't even come particularly close to cracking the point-per-game mark. In fact, his per-game offence dipped relative to the season prior.

What's perhaps most frustrating about this lack of production is that Stillman has physical tools that would easily pass muster in professional hockey. He's explosive and quick as a skater, overwhelmingly physical, and has a shot that can threaten from some distance.

Yet the sum has been less than the equal of its parts for two seasons now. This isn't an accident though. Stillman mostly attacks in straight lines, often directly into pressure. The end result is a mountain of turnovers and low-percentage shots. He has passing skill but lacks the patience or the cunning to let plays develop or create in the face of pressure. His off-puck offence is mostly characterized by screening the goaltender with little movement to get open for clean looks.

The lack of sophistication in Stillman's game at this point suggests that even if he gets back on track, there isn't a particularly high ceiling here. If he can develop into a crash-and-bang bottom-of-the-lineup winger, though, there's a lot of value in that. Even if it's not the sort of value the Devils expected out of a first-round pick.
 

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