OT: Carolina RailHawks to Rebrand, Push for MLS Bid

[HisIceness]

Just realized this will mean Raleigh is the only US market that is NHL and nothing else. Columbus has the Crew, San Jose has the Earthquakes, and Las Vegas is the soon-to-be-home for the NFLs Raiders.

Will be interesting, I casually watched Atlanta since their games are broadcast here in SC but I can't get over them playing in a dome and on turf. Hopefully Charlotte will have a real soccer stadium.

I would think eventually they will. BofA Stadium is not a good long-term solution. Whether that means they start from scratch or completely redo Memorial Stadium remains to be seen.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Highly doubt it happens though unless MLS decides to stupidly expand to 40 teams or something. It was always going to be one or the other, not both.

Oh, I think expansion to 40 teams in conjunction with pro/rel is quite likely. Everybody gets more money that way.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Probably, especially considering MLS teams don't necessarily need fan support like NFL/NBA/MLB, but there are bigger cities than Raleigh that don't have a team either mostly because another city in the state already has a MLS team.

I just don’t think that’s necessary in a league with very limited TV reach. There would be no competition for fans between Charlotte and Raleigh.

I do get the point about flat-out having too many teams, though.

 

[HisIceness]

Oh, I think expansion to 40 teams in conjunction with pro/rel is quite likely. Everybody gets more money that way.

Fair enough I guess. I've never really followed soccer so I'm not sure how the relegation system works. I just think MLS might be making a mistake in expanding too quickly, doesn't most of the talent go to Europe anyways?

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Fair enough I guess. I've never really followed soccer so I'm not sure how the relegation system works. I just think MLS might be making a mistake in expanding too quickly, doesn't most of the talent go to Europe anyways?

The entire world plays the sport. Sure, the top talent goes elsewhere, but there's still a moderately successful league regardless, and an endless supply of decent talent.

Pro/rel probably ends up being just two tiers, rather than pyramids as in other countries -- but there are easily 40 markets that could support MLS in this country, and everyone screams about pro/rel all the time. I think it's the inevitable compromise.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

A couple of articles on how it might work:

The promotion-relegation debate isn't dying down, so here's how it could work in the United States

https://www.espn.com/soccer/major-l...ndingcould-a-form-of-pro-rel-become-necessary

 

[Svechhammer]

The MLS itself right now is a bit of a Ponzi scheme where they are making money really on the backs of expansion fees. Could they grow to 40 teams, sure... But you're not going to get another 10 owner groups looking to buy $200m franchises onlily to be stuck in MLS Div2, and I don't think any of the current owners would go for it.

And that's another reason why I don't think merging or absorbing the bigger USL teams will work, either. It just feels like the MLS is a bubble ready to burst because it grew too big too fast.

 

[Canes]

The MLS itself right now is a bit of a Ponzi scheme where they are making money really on the backs of expansion fees. Could they grow to 40 teams, sure... But you're not going to get another 10 owner groups looking to buy $200m franchises onlily to be stuck in MLS Div2, and I don't think any of the current owners would go for it.

And that's another reason why I don't think merging or absorbing the bigger USL teams will work, either. It just feels like the MLS is a bubble ready to burst because it grew too big too fast.

Yeah, I doubt any of the owners would agree to promotion/relegation. The MLS is technically a single entity league that owns all of their teams but I'm not sure how that would work and I doubt they would go for it either. MLS is just way different from most soccer leagues, from the schedule, to the salary cap, import player limits, etc.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Yeah, I doubt any of the owners would agree to promotion/relegation. The MLS is technically a single entity league that owns all of their teams but I'm not sure how that would work and I doubt they would go for it either. MLS is just way different from most soccer leagues, from the schedule, to the salary cap, import player limits, etc.

I don't see how else they get to 40 teams, and I don't see them stopping while the money is flowing. It's a land grab.

 

[Unsustainable]

If Charlotte gets the bid, I am definitely going

 

[tarheelhockey]

I don't see how else they get to 40 teams, and I don't see them stopping while the money is flowing. It's a land grab.

If anything, the minor-league talent pool helps their argument to keep expanding. Very few name brand players are involved with the league and keeping it small won’t change that. The quality of play won’t change discernibly by adding teams. It’s not like an old league where rivalries are attendance drivers. May as well rack up as many viable markets as you can.

 

[Oogie Boogie]

 

[Svechhammer]

If anything, the minor-league talent pool helps their argument to keep expanding. Very few name brand players are involved with the league and keeping it small won’t change that. The quality of play won’t change discernibly by adding teams. It’s not like an old league where rivalries are attendance drivers. May as well rack up as many viable markets as you can.

Isn't the problem that their revenue streams might not be that strong? Last I heard, and I really don't look into it too much, the primary reason they are getting money lately is through expansion fees. Without those, the finances of the league look drastically different, for the worse.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Isn't the problem that their revenue streams might not be that strong? Last I heard, and I really don't look into it too much, the primary reason they are getting money lately is through expansion fees. Without those, the finances of the league look drastically different, for the worse.

At the end of the day, TV advertising revenue will continue to pour into live sporting events. It's really the only kind of TV that's appointment TV anymore; almost everything else is now time-shifted. That makes sports teams and TV deals ever more valuable.

Can't get a new team in the NFL, NBA, NHL, or MLB without extreme machinations. But MLS is still expanding, and the bigger that footprint gets, the more money they stand to make in the long term. Especially as a single entity.

I don't follow NCFC. At all. Why? Because they have no chance of ever being anything more than a minor league team. But if NCFC were in MLS, or were in a lower tier that had the chance to be promoted to MLS... and had a stadium that wasn't a nightmare to get into and out of? I'd be a season ticket holder. I suspect I'm not alone in that regard.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Isn't the problem that their revenue streams might not be that strong? Last I heard, and I really don't look into it too much, the primary reason they are getting money lately is through expansion fees. Without those, the finances of the league look drastically different, for the worse.

I can believe that. It’s a standard dynamic in minor league sports, which is why leagues tend to expand rapidly and then crash. The difference for MLS is that in theory they should be big enough to command income through media, stadium services, etc but that isn’t a given.

 

[Svechhammer]

I don't follow NCFC. At all. Why? Because they have no chance of ever being anything more than a minor league team. But if NCFC were in MLS, or were in a lower tier that had the chance to be promoted to MLS... and had a stadium that wasn't a nightmare to get into and out of? I'd be a season ticket holder. I suspect I'm not alone in that regard.

Oh, that's the exact same mindset I'm in as well.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Like, there's a reason that American fans follow the EPL -- because the EPL is exciting no matter where your team is in the table.

Team at the top of the league? You're following to see if they win the league.

Team in the top ten? You're following to see if they can get into Europe.

Team in the bottom half? You're following to make sure they don't slip into the relegation battle.

Team in the relegation battle? You're watching every week, praying that they can get that one goal to get that one point.

I know multiple American fans who follow teams in the Championship in hopes of their return to former glory. My Aston Villa friends were absolutely psyched that they made it back into the Prem this year, and my Fulham friends are following the Championship table every week.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Like, there's a reason that American fans follow the EPL -- because the EPL is exciting no matter where your team is in the table.

Team at the top of the league? You're following to see if they win the league.

Team in the top ten? You're following to see if they can get into Europe.

Team in the bottom half? You're following to make sure they don't slip into the relegation battle.

Team in the relegation battle? You're watching every week, praying that they can get that one goal to get that one point.

I know multiple American fans who follow teams in the Championship in hopes of their return to former glory. My Aston Villa friends were absolutely psyched that they made it back into the Prem this year, and my Fulham friends are following the Championship table every week.

Every league is like this though.

The Canes experience is:

Team in the middle of the pack? Follow to see if they get ninth place.

Team in the bottom of the pack? Follow to see when they hit their March hot streak to pick 10th instead of 4th.


Exciting no matter what, no relegation necessary.

 

[DaveG]

At the end of the day, TV advertising revenue will continue to pour into live sporting events. It's really the only kind of TV that's appointment TV anymore; almost everything else is now time-shifted. That makes sports teams and TV deals ever more valuable.

Can't get a new team in the NFL, NBA, NHL, or MLB without extreme machinations. But MLS is still expanding, and the bigger that footprint gets, the more money they stand to make in the long term. Especially as a single entity.

I don't follow NCFC. At all. Why? Because they have no chance of ever being anything more than a minor league team. But if NCFC were in MLS, or were in a lower tier that had the chance to be promoted to MLS... and had a stadium that wasn't a nightmare to get into and out of? I'd be a season ticket holder. I suspect I'm not alone in that regard.

Yep. I'm in that boat with the Railhawks/NCFC. I go to games semi frequently, probably about a couple times a season. But if they were even say tier 3 with a chance to move up to MLS (and they are dominant in tier 2 for a while) I'd absolutely be a season ticket holder.

 

[The Stranger]

Like, there's a reason that American fans follow the EPL -- because the EPL is exciting no matter where your team is in the table.

Also doesn't hurt that it's the best league in the world, games are broadcast on weekend mornings and afternoons (some nationally), and the best US players typically play in the league.

I like promotion/relegation...and I think it would be cool if MLS had it...but I question of MLS will ever really catch on until the star power / quality increases. Bringing over the old-timers in the sunset of their career doesn't cut it (although it's better than nothing).

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Also doesn't hurt that it's the best league in the world, games are broadcast on weekend mornings and afternoons (some nationally), and the best US players typically play in the league.

I like promotion/relegation...and I think it would be cool if MLS had it...but I question of MLS will ever really catch on until the star power / quality increases. Bringing over the old-timers in the sunset of their career doesn't cut it (although it's better than nothing).

It's chicken and egg. The league must generate more interest and money before in attracts more stars. And also, those old timers can still be pretty great: Zlatan was f***ing amazing here in his brief time, and so was Rooney.

 

[DaveG]

It's chicken and egg. The league must generate more interest and money before in attracts more stars. And also, those old timers can still be pretty great: Zlatan was ****ing amazing here in his brief time, and so was Rooney.

I rather like the approach that some of these teams are taking, buying young South/Central American talents and then flipping them to Euro teams for 3-5 times the price in their early 20s once they're more proven. Look at Almiron from Atlanta, bought at around 7m, returned 24m.

Actually that's the other place these MLS owners can make money if they're smart.

 

[Canes]

I rather like the approach that some of these teams are taking, buying young South/Central American talents and then flipping them to Euro teams for 3-5 times the price in their early 20s once they're more proven. Look at Almiron from Atlanta, bought at around 7m, returned 24m.

Actually that's the other place these MLS owners can make money if they're smart.

They need to increase the import player limit. I understand its purpose but it's actually counter-intuitive in regards to making the US players better. Being able to bring in more players from South America (or elsewhere) before flipping them to a better league would still up the overall quality of the league.