Speculation: Canes roster building thread

[DaveG]

This may be the second best long-game troll ever perpetuated by someone on this board.

 

[DaleCooper]

Hahahahahahahaha

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

i dont think youre wrong sg

but right now we need both, and the 2a/2b/2c idea is the sustaining, longer lasting part of the build

we need a superstar. but we arent getting one this offseason. meanwhile, they can build to a contender, then be in a position to get that guy that will "push them over the top."

we tried it the other way around for about 7 years. eric staal was a star. we had the star, we tried to build around him. all that ended up happening was him getting burned out, and by the time we had a little bit of a supporting cast he was not good anymore

meanwhile, if you build a good, consistent playoff team, you are more likely to attract that guy via free agency, be a more attractive place to play, etc

i agree that 2a/2b/2c isnt enough. but it is certainly a necessary step right now. certainly rf shouldnt be simply going all in for a superstar, the name of the game right now is build from within and acquire assets. and by the nature of that build, if successful, the team will be 2a2b2c before it is a cup contender, hopefully as an intermediate step to the latter

 

[Joe McGrath]

I think this idea that we could expect to contend with our system/defense and three lines that kind of go 2A/2B/2C is kind of ********.

Could we make the playoffs like that? Yeah, but we'd be nothing more than 1st/2nd round fodder.

It's not a coincidence that the Blues weren't a legit contender until Tarasenko developed into an elite threat. The Sharks have Thornton. Pittsburgh has Crosby, Malkin, and Kessel. Tampa has Johnson and Kucherov, but they had an easy road to make it this far.

Look at the more traditional contenders, Chicago has Kane and Toews. LA has had Kopitar and Carter.

When was the last time a team built like that made a conference final? NJ and Arizona in 2012 probably, and they both got blasted by the Kings. You could make an argument for the Rangers last year, but they had a highly performing Nash and Brassard was disgusting in the playoffs. Oh and they had that Lundqvist guy who brings a level of goaltending that we'll never be able to secure.

There's just no realistic way that a team that doesn't have an elite first line forward talent wins the Stanley Cup. We're going to either have to develop or acquire one if we want to be more than just a consistent playoff team.

Was this meant to be a post on a different team's board? How about they become a 1 time playoff team this decade before we start asking to be more than just a consistent playoff team.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I think this idea that we could expect to contend with our system/defense and three lines that kind of go 2A/2B/2C is kind of ********.

Could we make the playoffs like that? Yeah, but we'd be nothing more than 1st/2nd round fodder.

It's not a coincidence that the Blues weren't a legit contender until Tarasenko developed into an elite threat. The Sharks have Thornton. Pittsburgh has Crosby, Malkin, and Kessel. Tampa has Johnson and Kucherov, but they had an easy road to make it this far.

Look at the more traditional contenders, Chicago has Kane and Toews. LA has had Kopitar and Carter.

When was the last time a team built like that made a conference final? NJ and Arizona in 2012 probably, and they both got blasted by the Kings. You could make an argument for the Rangers last year, but they had a highly performing Nash and Brassard was disgusting in the playoffs. Oh and they had that Lundqvist guy who brings a level of goaltending that we'll never be able to secure.

There's just no realistic way that a team that doesn't have an elite first line forward talent wins the Stanley Cup. We're going to either have to develop or acquire one if we want to be more than just a consistent playoff team.

Which is kind of basically exactly what everyone is saying, right?

The first goal is to become a team that achieves the playoffs consistently. That can be achieved with 2A/2B/2C kinds of lines and an upgrade in goal.

Then, if some of those players mature into clear top-liners -- Aho, Skinner, or someone we don't even see yet -- great. If not, we've got a solid enough team that convinces potential top-line UFAs "hey, these guys are a player away, I'm willing to go to that team to get them over the hump." Or, we've got assets we can trade to get us there.

But trying to go find a top-liner right now? It's not necessary yet, and it's not in the cards anyway.

 

[DaveG]

I'm curious as to what's going on with Strome right now in Brooklyn. If he's really available we should jump at it.

 

[Ole Gil]

I think you don't see a lot of teams with 2a/2b/2c succeed, because it's hard to avoid having a top line on your roster outside of extenuating circumstances.

The circumstances tend to be rebuilding (sold off top line) or aging (top line started sucking).

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I think you don't see a lot of teams with 2a/2b/2c succeed, because it's hard to avoid having a top line on your roster outside of extenuating circumstances.

The circumstances tend to be rebuilding (sold off top line) or aging (top line started sucking).

Isn't that really what St. Louis has though from a center standpoint? Wouldn't you say that at this point in their career, Steen, Statsny and Backes are all really 2a, 2b, 2c? I do get that they have some 1st line wingers though like Tarasenko.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

Isn't that really what St. Louis has though from a center standpoint? Wouldn't you say that at this point in their career, Steen, Statsny and Backes are all really 2a, 2b, 2c? I do get that they have some 1st line wingers though like Tarasenko.

You could make the argument that all three are preferable to Jordan Staal, the Canes' best C.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

You could make the argument that all three are preferable to Jordan Staal, the Canes' best C.

True, you could (although it's debatable). Nobody is saying the Canes don't need more talent up front though, I think we all agree on that but it doesn't have to necessarily be a true 1C. Put a Tarasenko and Schwartz on Rask's line and it's a 1st line.

I realize there are 2 discussions here. One is 1C, 2C, 3C (which started a day or two ago) and one is 1st line, 2nd line, 3rd line.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

True, you could (although it's debatable). Nobody is saying the Canes don't need more talent up front though, I think we all agree on that but it doesn't have to necessarily be a true 1C. Put a Tarasenko and Schwartz on Rask's line and it's a 1st line.

Definitely debatable. Although from an offensive standpoint I don't think it is. Overall play, sure.

Agree with your next statement, but it's never ideal to have the C as the weak link on the line IMO.

 

[Ole Gil]

Isn't that really what St. Louis has though from a center standpoint? Wouldn't you say that at this point in their career, Steen, Statsny and Backes are all really 2a, 2b, 2c? I do get that they have some 1st line wingers though like Tarasenko.

If you want to balance your roster by spreading a 40g winger, and 2 guys at a 60pt pace throughout 3 lines to get the 2a/2b/2c, that's a little different than the Canes situation, where they have 3 50ish point guys, and nobody else above 40.

I think Statsny and Steen are both legit top line quality players (along with Tarasenko, obviously).

edit: and probably Schwartz as well.

 

[DaveG]

This may be the second best long-game troll ever perpetuated by someone on this board.

Edit: the one that will NEVER be topped was, almost a decade ago the Lecavalier to Montreal rumors originated with one of us. Can't remember who it was but it was the biggest troll job of ALL TIME. Just flat out "holy ****" level on how that "rumor" was created in the first place and how it's since snowballed in to the offer now supposedly having been Vinny for Price, Subban, and MaxPac. It's like the long-play that will never end.

 

[NotOpie]

I think this idea that we could expect to contend with our system/defense and three lines that kind of go 2A/2B/2C is kind of ********.

I guess I'll just respectfully disagree. Teams that are hard to play against and can score enough goals can and do win lots of big games. What I do agree with is that we don't have that level of talent on the team just yet. But if we added a couple of guys who could put up 45 points or one 50+ point guy and one 40+ point guy, there's realistic chance that we could get into the playoffs.....as long as our possession game and our defense repeated itself.

What about if we added a Frans Nielsen and one of the 2nd or 3rd tier guys like Stempniak or Paranteau or perhaps even Versteeg again (examples fellows, not suggestions)? Aren't you upgrading your offensive output over the 39 points that Eric put up last year as well as the Terrys, Gerbes, and even Nashs on last year's team.

Frankly, having not made the playoffs in 7 years, I'm okay with being 1st or 2nd round fodder. Baby steps, gentlemen, baby steps....

So remember when I jokingly made the post about Faulk really not being injured and was sitting out because he was unhappy? Well, then NotOpie followed that up with a "Value Of: " thread on the main board saying he was unhappy. It became "gospel" on HF and now it's making it into articles by HF Partners.

http://thehockeywriters.com/finding-2-new-defencemen-for-the-oilers/

This tells you everything that you need to know about modern day journalism.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

The only team to have won a cup in the last decade w/o a "first line center" were the Bruins. Perhaps Anaheim with MscDonald, but they had Getzlaf as s pure scoring line.

That's about as close as you can cut it....a glass cannon "Kieth Yandke at Soichi" situation for your coach, and a guy you throw to the wolves...ie Bolland and Toews in 2010, Brind'amour and Staal, MacDonald + two defense HHoF'ers and Getzlaf, etc.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

If you want to balance your roster by spreading a 40g winger, and 2 guys at a 60pt pace throughout 3 lines to get the 2a/2b/2c, that's a little different than the Canes situation, where they have 3 50ish point guys, and nobody else above 40.

I think Statsny and Steen are both legit top line quality players (along with Tarasenko, obviously).

edit: and probably Schwartz as well.

Yeah, I was kinda mixing two different discussion topics (as I said later). I don't think anyone disagrees that long term, heck, even short term, the Canes need more talent in the top 6. I don't think we need to overpay a UFA or make some crazy Faulk for XXX trade at this point in time though. Make some improvements in the forward group and goalie, this year, get to the playoffs (hopefully), then focus on the next step after that. Without a top pick, and not being a destination for UFAs, we aren't going to change that overnight.

 

[DaveG]

Yep, you're right on that point. Only matter is going to be getting those guys on the right contracts so as not to handicap ourselves going forward when we may be in a position to chase an elite talent that hits UFA.

Right now, I'd say we have 5 established core players going forward up front with some wildcards and a bit of overlap.

Elite talent - none
First line talent - Skinner
Second line talent - J Staal, Rask
Solid middle 6 - Nestrasil, Lindholm

Blue chip talent - Aho
High end wildcards - Rask, Lindholm, Tolchinsky, Saarela
Likely middle 6 - Nordstrom, PDG, Wallmark

Now Rask and Lindholm I have as wildcards since they're still developing their overall game. Rask's upward trajectory makes me think he may end up developing in to a low end #1C. Lindholm actually has a higher upside but is a lower ceiling guy based on what we've seen. IF he can take those next steps he can be a legit top line guy, but if not then he'll remain what he is, a solid but unspectacular middle 6 forward that will be good for about 40-50 points in a season once he's rounded out his game. Something along the lines of a MoJo type player. Tolchinsky is pure boom or bust. He'll either be like a young Samsonov type or he'll be playing for decent money over in Russia after not being able to stick in a top 6 role. Not sure what Saarela is yet.

Aho I see as pure bluechip. Maybe not to the extent of a Marner but I also wouldn't be shocked if he actually ends up being a better player then Marner.

Nordstrom and PDG I have as guys that are still developing but that are probably going to cement themselves as middle 6 guys. Not a ton of upside but guys you absolutely want in your team. Wallmark has shown that he could be a nice asset down the middle though we'll see if the upside is there to the extent it is with Aho and Tol.

Now these are just guys that have a shot at making the roster in the next year or two. There's guys out there still like Roy, McLovin (seriously why isn't he under contract yet?), and even Cotton and Stevens that are looking good but that are also projects at this point. Looking at least 2 (McLovin) on the low end and as many as 6 (Cotton, Stevens) years out on the high end for those guys.



Compare that to our defense, we basically have all the pieces we need in place right now and for the next... however long we can afford to keep that together. We have our #1 (even if he's not an elite one) in Faulk, a guy that projects to maybe be even better just based off pedigree and early showings in Hanifin, a guy that came out of nowhere to look like he's top pairing (#1?) caliber as a 21yo rookie in Slavin, another surprise 21yo rookie top 4 guy in Pesce, and oh yeah we still have a guy we just took at #7 in Fleury who's looking good, another we acquired in McKeown, Carrick looking like a great 2nd/3rd pairing option long-term, and while he's struggled to stick even Murphy still has a ton of potential at 23.

 

[Brock Anton]

Aho I see as pure bluechip. Maybe not to the extent of a Marner but I also wouldn't be shocked if he actually ends up being a better player then Marner.

i can feel the toronto board melting rn

 

[DaveG]

They can feel free to. But Aho's just had the most impressive draft+1 of anyone from that draft that wasn't in the McEichel tier.

 

[Ole Gil]

Yeah, I was kinda mixing two different discussion topics (as I said later). I don't think anyone disagrees that long term, heck, even short term, the Canes need more talent in the top 6. I don't think we need to overpay a UFA or make some crazy Faulk for XXX trade at this point in time though. Make some improvements in the forward group and goalie, this year, get to the playoffs (hopefully), then focus on the next step after that. Without a top pick, and not being a destination for UFAs, we aren't going to change that overnight.

Sadly, I think the team probably does need to make a crazy trade or pay someone (probably 2 someones) a big chunk of money to get into the playoffs this year.

I say probably, because you never know. Maybe Aho wanders in and puts up great numbers, or Lindholm and Rask both score 30/30. But most likely, the team will struggle to score, they'll live on the bubble for most of the season, and then miss by a substantial number of points again.

Hopefully, the picks this year solve the problem long term. But I think short term success without something big happening is a longshot.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Sadly, I think the team probably does need to make a crazy trade or pay someone (probably 2 someones) a big chunk of money to get into the playoffs this year.

I say probably, because you never know. Maybe Aho wanders in and puts up great numbers, or Lindholm and Rask both score 30/30. But most likely, the team will struggle to score, they'll live on the bubble for most of the season, and then miss by a substantial number of points again. .

Maybe. A lot of it will also depends on what they do for a Goal Tending and injuries.

 

[TheOllieC]

It's crazy to me how something hits the media someplace like Edmonton and then keeps growing. Like, they're constantly having discussions about Faulk being a potential target for them when in it's actually not realistic at all. Nothing has come out that says anything about Faulk potentially being moved. He is going nowhere anytime soon. And then on top of that they feel RNH is an adequate piece to return Faulk, due to tidbits of information like "Brind'Amour is a mentor to RNH and the Canes would surely like to have him".



Friedman's calling RNH a good 3rd line C or 1st or 2nd line winger. And they're arguing with Elliotte saying the salary difference is irrelevant.

RNH is "western canadian" so Bill Peters has an affinity for him.

OMG im typing this as I listen they won't admit a Faulk is harder to find than RNH, they see Faulk as a 2nd pair RHD LMAO BECAUSE PLUS MINUS

"RNH body of work is more consistent than Faulk's" lol

They would want Carolina to add with Faulk but Avs wouldn't have to add as much with Barrie. Even though Faulk is better, with a better contract, while Barrie remains unsigned and is asking for likely 6M.

 

[Brock Anton]

Is this Stauffer guy always this ****ing stupid and insufferable?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Ha ha. Stauffer: "How did he do +/- the back half of last season"

Um, Bob, Faulk was injured and then playing on 1 leg for the last half of the season.

Stauffer: "How were his puck possession numbers?"

Um Bob, Faulk's puck possession numbers were very good.

 

[Brock Anton]

I do think that Peters/Brindy etc. would like to be able to acquire RNH, and I really wouldn't mind bringing him in either. But for Faulk.... let alone ADDING to Faulk? Haha **** that.