Value of: Can anyone fix the Leafs defense without leaving the team worse than it is?

[Pi]

Alzner is seeking 6x6 so you're going to put a $6 million D man on the 3rd pairing.

Seeking doesn't mean receiving. Yandle makes 5.5M. He will come to his senses and sign for less than 5M. I wonder which team will get him. I'm not too thrilled with Alzner as the answer. I'd rather go a different route and target Trouba.

Trouba would solve most of our problems right now. He's an RD and he can skate, good shot and physical as well. Wonder if he is offer sheet eligible next summer.

Most importantly, Trouba would fit our age group.

 

[crowi]

But adding a #2-3 guy for non-1st round picks and/or B prospects and/or decent but non-core NHL pieces isn't completely out of the question. It's happened before, so why not again.

Please explain who and how you do you think you get one of those?

 

[Liminality]

You won't get any fix to your D for basically nothing.
You could get lucky trading for some project and it ends up paying out, but that's it.

That's probably the safest bet. I wanted the Leafs to try and grab Schmaltz from the Blues if they somehow kept Shattenkirk but I think that ship has sailed.

Maybe they can go after Pulock or go after one of the defenders from the Wild or the Ducks who's going to get exposed to the expansion draft.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Seeking doesn't mean receiving. Yandle makes 5.5M. He will come to his senses and sign for less than 5M. I wonder which team will get him. I'm not too thrilled with Alzner as the answer. I'd rather go a different route and target Trouba.

So you want to dump Nylander at least?

 

[Kamiccolo]

Well, you aren't going to get the d-man that you are after without one of them, based on recent history.

Where did I say otherwise.

All this thread is are people saying "Oh the Leafs need to move the big three". Very best, then suggest a trade. Tired of the Leaf fans getting mocked for suggesting them, lets hear what the rest of you think.

Another few things.

I said a marginal D, meaning Nylander for a #4 is a no go. He's as valuable as Hall right now.

Additionally, I do not mean not giving up good pieces. I mean, if they lost an offensive piece, the bigger the piece, it needs to add that to teh defense. Like in theory, Matthews would need to go for a young Doughty type D who could anchor the blueline for years. I don't see a player like that, so he's probably off the table. Marner might be, but there are very very few D I would move him for straight up.

So basically with everything else, what deals can be made here? Leafs have tons of picks, high end prospects, many NHl ready players, rookies out the a hole and a 20 year old future #1 C.

 

[skyo]

Probably JVR + a unconditional 1st + prospect would fetch something decent.

or hand a blank cheque to Alzner.

 

[McMetal]

Don't rush your rebuild, Leafs fans. I know it's exciting now to be finally close to being relevant again, but you still have 2-3 years to go if you want to build a dynasty. Keep drafting well, and maybe in a year or two a trade will open up. But rushing to consolidate assets now to acquire a Dman is a recipe for a failed rebuild.

 

[Volica]

Probably JVR + a unconditional 1st + prospect would fetch something decent.

or hand a blank cheque to Alzner.

You know, at first I read that first line and was like 'yeah, know what, you're right.'
Then I thought about it for a moment, you have to find a team:
A) That has a good defenceman they're willing to move
B) Is wanting to look at futures (1st rounder + prospect)
C) Wants a pure 1D winger for 1 more year.

Who is going full out rebuild?

Avs?
Barrie?

Avs would get a 1st, a good prospect and likely another 1st for JVR at the TDL?

Dunno, that package on paper you're like, nice, when you dissect it, you're like... Meh.
Like, would you give up Rielly for... Niederreiter, a 1st and a prospect? If the answer is no, then work down your lineup to a point where you'd say yes.

 

[34]

Where did I say otherwise.

All this thread is are people saying "Oh the Leafs need to move the big three". Very best, then suggest a trade. Tired of the Leaf fans getting mocked for suggesting them, lets hear what the rest of you think.

Another few things.

I said a marginal D, meaning Nylander for a #4 is a no go. He's as valuable as Hall right now.

Agree with this. Nylander is worth more than Hall. All the Nylander for the 4th D man threads are hilarious.

Willy is untouchable anyway. Team will be shut down fast if they inquire about him. No go.

 

[The List Of Jericho]

I have faith the Leafs will pick off a good defenseman because of the impending expansion draft and the price won't be too crazy. Teams won't want to lose guys for nothing.

 

[Pyrophorus]

I don't understand why alot of Leafs are so impatient. Why not just relax a bit, sit back and see who shakes loose?

Is it because the Leafs are vying for a PO spot that is making fans chomp at the bit to fix everything right away?

IMO, Leafs can afford to be patient and not force the issue. More times than not forcing the issue leads to something you'll eventually regret at some point down the line.

There are 2 sides to this. Yes, something will come out eventually.
At the same time, there is video evidence where its stated, they aren't trying to do anything slowly.

 

[Proust*]

Agree with this. Nylander is worth more than Hall. All the Nylander for the 4th D man threads are hilarious.

Willy is untouchable anyway. Team will be shut down fast if they inquire about him. No go.

LOL wut?


A top 4 D-man will cost the Leafs Nylander. A top 2 D-man will cost Nylander +

 

[Viqsi]

The problem is that you cannot get a top pairing D via trade without making your team worse than it is. That's what a trade is about. To get valuable assets, you need to give valuable assets.

I contest that by virtue of the fact that "losing a trade w/r/t vacuum value" and "making your team worse" are absolutely not the same thing - see the already frequently-cited Hall-for-Larsson deal for an excellent example.


Personally, I think the Leafs' best bet for blueline improvement is to wait until the expansion draft finishes, then offer JvR to Vegas for one of the many blueliners Vegas will surely be offering up to make up for their inevitable near-lack of top-6 scorers.

 

[34]

LOL wut?


A top 4 D-man will cost the Leafs Nylander. A top 2 D-man will cost Nylander +

Not a chance. Nylander is worth way more than that! Way more!

Nylander will not traded for a top 4 D. Take that to the bank.

 

[TOGuy14]

It took trading Taylor Hall to get a good Dman on a good contract coming back the other way.

The price for blueliners always seems to be highest for teams that desperately need defenders.

Wish people would stop quoting bad trades as truth for everything going forward

WSH traded FF for Martin Erat so by that standard we should be able to trade JVR for Werenski right?

 

[34]

It took trading Taylor Hall to get a good Dman on a good contract coming back the other way.

The price for blueliners always seems to be highest for teams that desperately need defenders.

A bad trade does not dictate the market. Just because someone steps in ****, you don't have to do the same. I don't mean this rudely either. Just stating a fact.

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

Noah Hanifin for Jeremy Bracco, Travis Dermott, 2nd 2018

 

[Nordic*]

LOL wut?


A top 4 D-man will cost the Leafs Nylander. A top 2 D-man will cost Nylander +

I really think you are wrong.

Nylander has borderline franchise forward potential.

 

[Viqsi]

LOL wut?

Nylander can play center, so... yeah, he kind of is. That said, when dealing with these sorts of high-demand positions, that whole "hockey players are not fungible assets" thing tends to bite pretty hard.

A top 4 D-man will cost the Leafs Nylander. A top 2 D-man will cost Nylander +

...case in point. This depends a whole hell of a lot on what blueliners you're talking about. You can't say "top-4" or "top-2" and presume that's the end of it. With a Nylander involved in the trade, it gets more nuanced.

* * *​

Wish people would stop quoting bad trades as truth for everything going forward

WSH traded FF for Martin Erat so by that standard we should be able to trade JVR for Werenski right?

It's more a question of the value of a scoring winger versus the value of a defenseman.

That said, that really only applies when trading JvR, seeing as though Nylander still has C potential and Marner isn't moving.

 

[Advanced stats]

Noah Hanifin for Jeremy Bracco, Travis Dermott, 2nd 2018

Stop.
This was going so well..

 

[34]

I really think you are wrong.

Nylander has borderline franchise forward potential.

I really think you are wrong. No disrespect.

Nylander is an elite franchise player.

 

[Stephen]

Took Hall to get Larsson. Go from there.

Edit: If you don't want to move anyone, best bet is to make a Boychuk/Leddy type deal like the Isles did a few years ago. Which means taking a chance on some potentially under appreciated players. So would require getting a bit lucky.

That statement might end up meaning that much, because Taylor Hall might not be as good as everyone thought he was.

 

[Hine82]

To aquire top-pairing defencemen via trades will cost a lot, unless you get someone who has started to regress, at which case it will only be a temporary solution anyway.

Via free agency you'll usually have to offer him a salary at least 20% over the players real value.

In either case, getting top-2 D:s will cost a lot, either through money or prospects/young players/draft picks.

If I were Toronto, I would give up the upcoming two first rounders (2017 & 2018) + the forward prospects needed to land a top-2 Dman under the age of 27, preferbly right-handed.

Those 1st rounders will probably be around 25th anyway, especially if you add that important piece at the back-end.


Or you offer less for a 30+ player, as a stop-gap.

Ideas.

1st 2017, 1st 2018, Nielsen & Kapanen.

For.

Justin Faulk.

---------------------------------------

Or go for the stop-gap and if Edler is willing to waive. Should come pretty cheap from Vancouver who is rebuilding.

Faulk is worth what amounts to 3 firsts and a second?

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

Faulk has regressed and is at best the 3rd best Dman on the Canes. So why do some folks think he worth Nylander?
Same with Shattenkirk. He's the third best Dman on the Blues, although a a good PP specialist. And are the Blues that much better than the Leafs

People just go trade crazy, not seeing value or in proper team building.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

What world do you live in where Justin Faulk is worth essentially 3 1st round picks and an early 3rd pick (who is so far way outperforming his draft status)?

What world do you live in where the Canes would give up a top pairing, RHD, who is only 24 and on a great contract for a bunch of unknown entities and a guy who is a LHD (which the Canes don't need at all)?

If this was a case of Faulk wanting out or the team wanting to move on from him (like with Hamilton), then maybe they'd take picks/prospects, otherwise think Hall for Larsson, Jones for Johansen.

Again, I don't think he's the right fit for Toronto, but I don't see Carolina moving him right now for a bunch of picks/prospects. Down the road as he's closer to UFA, maybe, but not right now.