Speculation: Calgary Flames 2014 Draft Discussion Part III

[Lunatik]

But doubt Glorida passes on him anyway

It's cute that you guys think Edmonton will do something they should. You need to remember one simple fact.

They are the Oilers.

 

[TheHudlinator]

I disagree. First it's said that the Oilers want Draisaitl badly.

But even without those rumors, they need a big, strong 2 way centre as much as they need a defenseman, maybe even worse. Last year MacTavish made it well known he wanted a centreman instead he ended up with Nurse because all the top centremen had already been taken. Why would their needs be any different this season?

Not only this but McTavish said they want an #1 defenseman now, they don't want to wait for a prospect to develop. So they may not want Ekblad because he is a defenseman.

 

[Mr Lebowski]

It's cute that you guys think Edmonton will do something they should. You need to remember one simple fact.

They are the Oilers.

I think Florida will take him though. I see
FLA: Ekblad
BUF:Reinhart
EDM: Draisaitl
CGY: Bennett

Second round I hope to god Jack Dougherty is there and if he falls through Anaheim and Florida he'll be there for us. If not Jack Glover or Travis Sanheim. Eric Cornel's a possibilty as well. For Avs pick I'd like Nick Magyar or Ryan Collins, we could even reacj to select Ben Thomas.

64th overall I like Ben Thomas, haven't really thought about alternatives.

Pens picks maybe Matt Mistele or Jacob Middleton. Keegan Iverson would be my pick, if not then Domonik Masin or Reid Gardiner

Joe Hicketts for 6th, if not Chase Lang or Oskar Lindblom

For 7th I love Sebastion Fuchs, will go mid-late 7th, should go 5th round

 

[joeyabs]

It would be interesting to do a poll for the second pick 34 using the top prospects that aren't picked from the team poll voting - but that seemed to die once it hit Nashville..

 

[TheClassicK*]

It's cute that you guys think Edmonton will do something they should. You need to remember one simple fact.

They are the Oilers.

Funny you call it "cute". And that's what seriously makes you think they'll select Draisaitl over Ekblad? You seemed pretty serious about that judging from your previous posts, but I dearly hope you're joking

It's hilarious how you would apply the BPA rule for situations in your favour but completely ignore it when it comes to other teams, even if it's the Oilers. Doesn't work that way, I'm afraid.

 

[theIceWookie]

Funny you call it "cute". And that's what seriously makes you think they'll select Draisaitl over Ekblad? You seemed pretty serious about that judging from your previous posts, but I dearly hope you're joking

It's hilarious how you would apply the BPA rule for situations in your favour but completely ignore it when it comes to other teams, even if it's the Oilers. Doesn't work that way, I'm afraid.

So when Yakupov went first in 2012, he wasn't actually the player management and the scouts wanted. It was Murray. Ownership overruled them. On the player the scouts were recommending.

So at this point, applying any sort of logic to the Oilers is going to end badly.

And BPA is a pretty subjective thing. Just because you think BPA is one way, and public scouting lists agree, it doesn't mean that one team or even 5 teams agree. Why do you think drafts end up so completely differently than the consensus picks EVERY year.

Maybe teams don't actually think Ekblad is BPA. Maybe they think he's clsoer to his upside than any of the other top 5 picks, and thus isn't BPA.

 

[CraigsList]

If the Oilers pick Bennett, they don't address their size and then have a RNH 2.0 all over again. Then, we get Draisaitl.

If they draft Draisaitl and address their size, the better player for Calgary (Bennett) is available. Edmonton just loses either way, and Calgary yet again gets a win-win situation.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

If the Oilers pick Bennett, they don't address their size and then have a RNH 2.0 all over again. Then, we get Draisaitl.

If they draft Draisaitl and address their size, the better player for Calgary (Bennett) is available. Edmonton just loses either way, and Calgary yet again gets a win-win situation.

That's kind of how I feel about our pick. It also hurts them twice as bad since last year we got Monahan when they really wanted him.

 

[CraigsList]

That's kind of how I feel about our pick. It also hurts them twice as bad since last year we got Monahan when they really wanted him.

Yes, I am glad that we drafted a spot before them in the deeper draft... Makes you wonder how badly Monahan would have been developed in Edmonton. They just suck at developing their players.

 

[Skobel24]

If the Oilers pick Bennett, they don't address their size and then have a RNH 2.0 all over again. Then, we get Draisaitl.

If they draft Draisaitl and address their size, the better player for Calgary (Bennett) is available. Edmonton just loses either way, and Calgary yet again gets a win-win situation.

Can't agree there. Either way, Edmonton will address a need. They bring in size, or a skilled center, both of which are lacking. If by some chance Ekblad is available, they grab a much needed defenseman.

 

[TheClassicK*]

So when Yakupov went first in 2012, he wasn't actually the player management and the scouts wanted. It was Murray. Ownership overruled them. On the player the scouts were recommending.

So at this point, applying any sort of logic to the Oilers is going to end badly.

And BPA is a pretty subjective thing. Just because you think BPA is one way, and public scouting lists agree, it doesn't mean that one team or even 5 teams agree. Why do you think drafts end up so completely differently than the consensus picks EVERY year.

Maybe teams don't actually think Ekblad is BPA. Maybe they think he's clsoer to his upside than any of the other top 5 picks, and thus isn't BPA.

Let's be honest here. It's foolish to convince yourself that Draisaitl is the better player than Ekblad. And you're relying on a "maybe" that some teams will actually have their lists set that way, because they won't.

I agree that the BPA logic is subjective and it'd definitely apply to cases like Dal Colle vs. Draisaitl, but the above case is just not even close. So applying that logic is not going to end badly in case of the Oilers, I'm afraid. Any team would be foolish to pass on a defenseman who'll step right up to play +20 minutes in all situations. Although the Oilers need that second-line center, they'll surely have an easier time acquiring a 2C than a top 4 defenseman, as they have a really good group of defensemen coming up (aka Marincin, Klefbom, Nurse, Larsen), some of which could surely be used to lure the type of secondary center they're looking for.

 

[CraigsList]

Can't agree there. Either way, Edmonton will address a need. They bring in size, or a skilled center, both of which are lacking. If by some chance Ekblad is available, they grab a much needed defenseman.

Disagree with ya again. If Edmonton drafts Draisaitl, Calgary gets the benefit of Monahan and Bennett down the middle, one with size and one with skill. If Edmonton picks Bennett, they have size issues, it's an RNH 2.0. Monahan and Draisaitl would be lethal too.

Toss up between Bennett and Draisaitl, I'm fine with either. We're better off on our rebuild than Edmonton is anyways. We develop our lpayers better than them. They are going to slot Leon or Sam right into their lineup, and that's going to hurt them, especially if they pick Bennett.

 

[Anglesmith]

Disagree with ya again. If Edmonton drafts Draisaitl, Calgary gets the benefit of Monahan and Bennett down the middle, one with size and one with skill. If Edmonton picks Bennett, they have size issues, it's an RNH 2.0. Monahan and Draisaitl would be lethal too.

Toss up between Bennett and Draisaitl, I'm fine with either. We're better off on our rebuild than Edmonton is anyways. We develop our lpayers better than them. They are going to slot Leon or Sam right into their lineup, and that's going to hurt them, especially if they pick Bennett.

Sam Bennett is 6' and 180 lbs. Is that really a size issue? That's 16 lbs heavier than Ryan Nugent-Hopkins was in his draft year.

 

[CraigsList]

Perhaps not a size issue, but the Oilers are going to put Sam in the NHL right away when they really should give him another year in the OHL.

 

[Skobel24]

Disagree with ya again. If Edmonton drafts Draisaitl, Calgary gets the benefit of Monahan and Bennett down the middle, one with size and one with skill. If Edmonton picks Bennett, they have size issues, it's an RNH 2.0. Monahan and Draisaitl would be lethal too.

Toss up between Bennett and Draisaitl, I'm fine with either. We're better off on our rebuild than Edmonton is anyways. We develop our lpayers better than them. They are going to slot Leon or Sam right into their lineup, and that's going to hurt them, especially if they pick Bennett.

You fail to realize though that no matter who they select, it's going to address a need that the Oilers need in their lineup. Skilled center, size, or a solid defenseman. Just because Calgary gets a player as well, doesn't mean the Oilers lose out.

By your logic, if we pick Bennett, we have a size issue. If the Flames draft one of Bennett/Leon/Sam, the Flames will more than likely slot them in immediately too.

 

[Anglesmith]

You fail to realize though that no matter who they select, it's going to address a need that the Oilers need in their lineup. Skilled center, size, or a solid defenseman. Just because Calgary gets a player as well, doesn't mean the Oilers lose out.

By your logic, if we pick Bennett, we have a size issue. If the Flames draft one of Bennett/Leon/Sam, the Flames will more than likely slot them in immediately too.

I'm not so sure that's true. I don't really think we have room to give a spot to a new draftee next season. We have so many guys who have the ability to earn a spot, I think that a player will really need to knock the socks off Treliving and Burke in order to make the big club next season, even more so than Sean Monahan last year.

 

[Skobel24]

I'm not so sure that's true. I don't really think we have room to give a spot to a new draftee next season. We have so many guys who have the ability to earn a spot, I think that a player will really need to knock the socks off Treliving and Burke in order to make the big club next season, even more so than Sean Monahan last year.

Even so, to say the Oilers lose out because Calgary picks right after them is ridiculous. They're still getting a top 5 prospect who will likely play a big role with the Oilers. If we picked before the Oilers, would we lose out because Edmonton chose Draisaitl or Bennett after us? No.

 

[CraigsList]

Even so, to say the Oilers lose out because Calgary picks right after them is ridiculous. They're still getting a top 5 prospect who will likely play a big role with the Oilers. If we picked before the Oilers, would we lose out because Edmonton chose Draisaitl or Bennett after us? No.

Someone put this on CalgaryPuck:

If they pick Bennett, they will have 2 smaller Cs in RNH and Bennett, and the Flames would have Monahan and Draisaitl. I think that would be a very bad situation for Edmonton (not to mention that they also have to deal with Kopitar, Getzlaf, Thorton etc)

On the other hand, if they pick Draisaitl (which they should, IMO) they are leaving Calgary the arguably better player. Bennett and Monahan is a pretty awesome combination to think about.

No matter which way Edmonton goes, they are leaving Calgary in great shape. I would argue that either way, the Flames end up with the better C pairing because we are starting with the large-bodied, well rounded Monahan while they are starting with the small, one-dimensional RNH.

No matter which way they go, the Flames win, IMO. It's a great scenario.

Pretty much what I was arguing. Monahan is bigger than RNH, therefore, the Oilers should pick Draisaitl. Them picking Draisaitl gives us a skilled center (Bennett). We are all forgetting that RNH is one-dimensional, as mentioned in the quote.

 

[theIceWookie]

Let's be honest here. It's foolish to convince yourself that Draisaitl is the better player than Ekblad. And you're relying on a "maybe" that some teams will actually have their lists set that way, because they won't.

I agree that the BPA logic is subjective and it'd definitely apply to cases like Dal Colle vs. Draisaitl, but the above case is just not even close. So applying that logic is not going to end badly in case of the Oilers, I'm afraid. Any team would be foolish to pass on a defenseman who'll step right up to play +20 minutes in all situations. Although the Oilers need that second-line center, they'll surely have an easier time acquiring a 2C than a top 4 defenseman, as they have a really good group of defensemen coming up (aka Marincin, Klefbom, Nurse, Larsen), some of which could surely be used to lure the type of secondary center they're looking for.

How is it not even close? Just because you've already made up YOUR mind that Ekblad is on a clear other level than Draisaitl? Ekblad isn't even the consensus first rated player among draft rankings, in fact a bunch of different services have made comments about how it's basically a four person race at times.

How is Draisaitl vs Dal Colle a case of BPA logic being subjective, whereas Draisaitl versus Ekblad, it's unfathomable? Why is it "foolish to convince yourself that Draisaitl is the better player than Eklbad"?

NHL readiness doesn't define a player's long term implications and it doesn't translate to being the better player available.

EVERY SINGLE YEAR players drop unexpectedly when they were almost assumed to be locks for the top 5. Forsberg was virtually a top 5 lock in 2012 and fell all the way out the top 10. Couturier and Hamilton were pretty well regarded to go within the top 6 because they were "BPA" and they fell to 8/9. Hell Larsson was expected to go right behind RNH or even 1st overall and fell to 4th.

THE VERY SAME THING happened last year when Jones, regarded as a lock to go 1/2 with MacKinnon was passed over THREE times to get to Nashville at 4.

Teams often have VERY different lists than fans and scouting services do. Players fall regularly every single year. And in a year where it's been widely regarded as having no clear lock for the the number 1, BPA is probably the most subjective thing in the top 5.

 

[theIceWookie]

Someone put this on CalgaryPuck:



Pretty much what I was arguing. Monahan is bigger than RNH, therefore, the Oilers should pick Draisaitl. Them picking Draisaitl gives us a skilled center (Bennett). We are all forgetting that RNH is one-dimensional, as mentioned in the quote.

What difference does it make if RNH is one-dimensional or not? Who cares.

Having two small centers isn't the worst thing in the world, and it doesn't mean the losers lose no matter what. And even if they take Draisaitl, it doesn't necessarily they are targeting only size and leaving the better player on the table. they're just taking a different player.

The Avs dominated this season with two top 6 centers that weren't over 6 feet.

Montreal is currently playing pretty succesfully with two top 6 centers under the size of 6 feet.

Rangers are doing fine with two 6 foot top 6 centers.

Taking Bennett wouldn't be a loss for the Oilers. Neither would taking Draisaitl.

 

[TheClassicK*]

How is it not even close? Just because you've already made up YOUR mind that Ekblad is on a clear other level than Draisaitl? Ekblad isn't even the consensus first rated player among draft rankings, in fact a bunch of different services have made comments about how it's basically a four person race at times.

Are you serious? I'm not the only one who's made up my mind that Ekblad is above Draisaitl. Every draft rankings I'm seeing has Ekblad above Draisaitl AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE, EKBLAD VS. DRAISAITL.

NHL readiness doesn't define a player's long term implications and it doesn't translate to being the better player available.

I never said it does, can you find where I said that? The only thing I mentioned is that Ekblad would step up right away and be a top 4 defenseman, maybe on the boundaries of a 4th and a 5th D. However, you are rubbishing the significance of "NHL readiness" as it still has a moderate correlation with what kind of players will turn out better and how long they'll stay in the NHL. You said it "doesn't" define a player's long term implications and "doesn't" translate to being the better player available, but it sure has some level of influence.

EVERY SINGLE YEAR players drop unexpectedly when they were almost assumed to be locks for the top 5. Forsberg was virtually a top 5 lock in 2012 and fell all the way out the top 10. Couturier and Hamilton were pretty well regarded to go within the top 6 because they were "BPA" and they fell to 8/9. Hell Larsson was expected to go right behind RNH or even 1st overall and fell to 4th.

THE VERY SAME THING happened last year when Jones, regarded as a lock to go 1/2 with MacKinnon was passed over THREE times to get to Nashville at 4.

Teams often have VERY different lists than fans and scouting services do. Players fall regularly every single year. And in a year where it's been widely regarded as having no clear lock for the the number 1, BPA is probably the most subjective thing in the top 5.

You also keep bringing up cases from past drafts and to counter that - No, Forsberg was NOT A LOCK to go Top 5 as there clearly was a consensus on Yak-Mur-Gal as well as a plethora of defensemen projected to add to that list of Top 5. - and 2011, Couturier and Hamilton were not projected to go within the top 6 simply because of the clear consensus of RNH-Lan-Larsson, as well as the likes of Huberdeau, Scheifele, and Strome who were projected to go above Couturier and Hamilton because those that were already picked simply were the BPA. - 2013, Jones was definitely projected to go 1st or 2nd alongside MacKinnon but it sure was a strong draft, you never knew if Barkov (who tore up the Finnish league as an 18 year-old) and Drouin (more impressive WJC than MacKinnon) were going to challenge for those Top 3 spots.

However, I agree those things happen EVERY SINGLE YEAR, but we're talking about Ekblad and Draisaitl here. I'm not talking about who's locked as the number one pick, I'm arguing that in the Oilers' case, if they have Ekblad fall to them then their choice would either be Ekblad and Draisaitl. And although they have plenty of defenseman coming up, if they have Ekblad waiting there then they would have to take it, simply because he's the "better player" than Draisaitl, according to every draft rankings I could find.

Hell, why are we even using the "take the BPA" logic if we're going to convince ourselves that every team in the league will each have completely different opinions on who the BPA is, and that we shouldn't even discuss who the BPA would be? Sure, the list will look different outside of the top 5 or top 10, but it's absolutely appalling to say that the list will look completely different when it comes to a case in which two players are being compared, where one is universally projected to go 1st or 2nd and the other 4th or 5th.

 

[47]

I think the fact that Edmonton will get either a defenceman or a center is good for them no matter how you look at it..

They need another top-6 center to go along with RNH and they need defenceman so if they keep that pick they should come out ahead either way..

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think all that ForeverFlamesFan is trying to say (and I agree), is that the Flames are in an excellent position and cannot lose no matter what the outcome is. The Oilers are our provincial rivals, and while their main concern needs to be drafting for the betterment of their team; ForeverFlamesFan is just stating that in an ideal world, they would not want their pick to benefit us in the process. Because of our draft position, that is unavoidable for the Oilers and the Flames are in a win/win situation.

We are going to get better no matter who they pick and we will be a very hard matchup for them in the process. At the same time I fully agree that they will obviously be getting better as well. They really should pick Draisaitl IMO.

 

[Pirate King Luffy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think all that ForeverFlamesFan is trying to say (and I agree), is that the Flames are in an excellent position and cannot lose no matter what the outcome is. The Oilers are our provincial rivals, and while their main concern needs to be drafting for the betterment of their team; ForeverFlamesFan is just stating that in an ideal world, they would not want their pick to benefit us in the process. Because of our draft position, that is unavoidable for the Oilers and the Flames are in a win/win situation.

We are going to get better no matter who they pick and we will be a very hard matchup for them in the process. At the same time I fully agree that they will obviously be getting better as well. They really should pick Draisaitl IMO.

You are correct.

 

[Mr Lebowski]

The Oilers don't lose no matter who they pick, tgey lost because they're awful and they mis-handled their re-build. Calgary gets a lethal 1-2 combo no matter what. I believe the draft goes Ekblad, Reinhart, Draisaitl, Bennett. Bennett/Monahan combo will be amazing.