C Mathew Barzal - Seattle Thunderbirds, WHL (2015, 16th, NYI) III

[Gardner McKay]

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[NickLidstrom]

I really hope the next CBA allows AHL exceptions for 19 year olds. Barzal doesn't have much left to learn in the W.

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

I really hope the next CBA allows AHL exceptions for 19 year olds. Barzal doesn't have much left to learn in the W.

Alot of people say this but IMO it isnt true. I feel he has things to work on. Strength, faceoffs and defensive play are a few things. Also sure he is real special offensively, but its not like he is getting 120+ points a year in junior

 

[Fixed to Ruin]

I really hope the next CBA allows AHL exceptions for 19 year olds. Barzal doesn't have much left to learn in the W.

This. It's a failure on the system. If the kid has enough talent to play pro hockey he should be able to do so. NHL or AHL.

EDIT: As a reminder, Jack Roslovic who was drafted in the same year and 9 spots later than Barzal is playing the AHL and leading all rookies in scoring. I'm sure he's learning more playing against men than going to the OHL and playing against boys.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I really hope the next CBA allows AHL exceptions for 19 year olds. Barzal doesn't have much left to learn in the W.

The problem is that it then waters down the entire CHL, making it less effective as a development environment for ALL the other players in that league. The 16 and 17 YO CHL rookies benefit from playing against the Barzals.

The thinking was (and probably still is) that if the player is so good then he probably belongs in the NHL.

 

[Fixed to Ruin]

The problem is that it then waters down the entire CHL, making it less effective as a development environment for ALL the other players in that league. The 16 and 17 YO CHL rookies benefit from playing against the Barzals.

The thinking was (and probably still is) that if the player is so good then he probably belongs in the NHL.

You don't think having 60 CHL teams isn't watering down the product? Especially in Canada where hockey participation is declining.

Also if you are 16 and playing in the CHL you are most likely a 1st round talent. It's fairly rare to see 16 year olds play full time in the CHL. Most rookies are 17 or 18.

 

[tigervixxxen]

The problem is that it then waters down the entire CHL, making it less effective as a development environment for ALL the other players in that league. The 16 and 17 YO CHL rookies benefit from playing against the Barzals.

The thinking was (and probably still is) that if the player is so good then he probably belongs in the NHL.

Barzal isn't there now so it's not doing a darn thing to the CHL to have him playing in the AHL or sitting around in NY.

 

[mouser]

Empirical evidence would suggest he's not ready for the NHL.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

Barzal isn't there now so it's not doing a darn thing to the CHL to have him playing in the AHL or sitting around in NY.

You're missing the point. It's not about the absence of a single player.

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

Barzal isn't there now so it's not doing a darn thing to the CHL to have him playing in the AHL or sitting around in NY.

the main issue right now in CHL with Barzal gone is the Seattle Tbirds future.

There are rumors that the whole season and many Tbirds junior career path are waiting on the Barzal situation.

Ive heard that if Barzal is returned, they are going to be making a couple massive deals for a push but if he isn't returned, the team may get rid of a few extremely good players(Kolesar, Bear, Gropp, Eansor) to contenders for massive returns and do a full rebuild

I don't think many people outside of Kent, Washington and fans/scouts/management realize the magnitude of this situation throughout the Seattle organization with the looming NYI decision

 

[93LEAFS]

You don't think having 60 CHL teams isn't watering down the product? Especially in Canada where hockey participation is declining.

Also if you are 16 and playing in the CHL you are most likely a 1st round talent. It's fairly rare to see 16 year olds play full time in the CHL. Most rookies are 17 or 18.

There are usually about 2 16 year olds on each CHL team. That would mean about 120 in the league.

As for Barzal, he hasn't outgrown the CHL. When we talk of kids who've outgrown a stage of development, its when you are looking at kids like McDavid who have absolutely destroyed the level and are NHL ready. Could the AHL be a better solution, yes, but he still has a bunch he could learn at the CHL level. Mainly improving his goal scoring and general compete.

 

[landy92mack29]

This. It's a failure on the system. If the kid has enough talent to play pro hockey he should be able to do so. NHL or AHL.

EDIT: As a reminder, Jack Roslovic who was drafted in the same year and 9 spots later than Barzal is playing the AHL and leading all rookies in scoring. I'm sure he's learning more playing against men than going to the OHL and playing against boys.

Actually Jake Guentzel is and even AJ Greer from the same draft year has more points


As for Barzal he still would benefit from being in the WHL playing 25+ minutes. I do think there should be an AHL option for some 19 yr old CHL players but the NHL team should have to pay a significant amount to the CHL team who has that players rights as it impacts that CHL team in a very significant way both in team play and money they'd make.

 

[NickLidstrom]

Empirical evidence would suggest he's not ready for the NHL.

No one is saying he is. He is 100% ready for the AHL, however.

Alot of people say this but IMO it isnt true. I feel he has things to work on. Strength, faceoffs and defensive play are a few things. Also sure he is real special offensively, but its not like he is getting 120+ points a year in junior

He played in the WHL, not the OHL. Literally only one player hit 120 last year, Adam Brooks, and no one did at all the 2 before. He would have easily hit 100 if not for getting injured last year. Strength comes more with age than the league he is in, and faceoffs and defensive play can be improved upon in the AHL just as easily as in the W.

If you saw him last year in the playoffs you saw how dominant he can be on both ends of the ice. The W is obviously preferable to the pressbox, but he would be much better off playing againt men.

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

No one is saying he is. He is %100 ready for the AHL, however.


He played in the WHL, not the OHL. Literally only one player hit 120 last year, Adam freaking Brooks, and no one did at all the 2 before. He would have easily hit 100 if not for getting injured last year. Strength comes more with age than the league he is in, faceoffs and defensive play can be learned in the AHL just as easily as in the W.

If you saw him last year in the playoffs you saw how dominant he can be on both ends of the ice. The W is obviously preferable to the pressbox but he would be much better off playing againt men.

Oh I saw him playoffs, and have seen him very extensively for many years. He still has things he needs to work on before he is successful VS men in my opinion

I am a massive fan of Barzal and have been speaking extremely high of him since before he played major junior and believe me it pains me to say that I think he needs more time in the WHL. But I try to never be biased on here and always speak what I find to be the truth.

I am sure many people agree with me and im sure many people disagree with me, but everyone is entitled to their opinion on here

 

[Colt.45Orr]

Getzlaf and Weber went back to the WHL for 2 years posted draft.... it isn't going to kill his development. Send him back already.

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

Getzlaf and Weber went back to the WHL for 2 years posted draft.... it isn't going to kill his development. Send him back already.

exactly... I can think of many many extremely good current NHLers that did.

Completely absurd situation going on in NYI

 

[Le Barron de HF]

Getzlaf and Weber went back to the WHL for 2 years posted draft.... it isn't going to kill his development. Send him back already.

Was there really a choice though? The lockout prevented any possibility of them playing in the NHL that year.

 

[tigervixxxen]

You're missing the point. It's not about the absence of a single player.

He's not the only one either, this happens every year to several players. I'm not sure why there's this attitude that it's going to be a mass exodus for every 19 year old in CHL that's going to end up in the AHL if they slightly tweak the rule. Adding in the players who sit around or are kept in the NHL early (who therefore are not in the CHL either) it might add a few more exiting 19 year old CHLers. The late birthday CHLers or the Euros on "loan" to the CHL get to skip out early too already. It's putting the development focus back in the development league.

But back to Barzal, seems he's going to wait for the WJC at this point.

 

[Pi]

He's not the only one either, this happens every year to several players. I'm not sure why there's this attitude that it's going to be a mass exodus for every 19 year old in CHL that's going to end up in the AHL if they slightly tweak the rule. Adding in the players who sit around or are kept in the NHL early (who therefore are not in the CHL either) it might add a few more exiting 19 year old CHLers. The late birthday CHLers or the Euros on "loan" to the CHL get to skip out early too already. It's putting the development focus back in the development league.

But back to Barzal, seems he's going to wait for the WJC at this point.

There is nothing wrong with the CHL rule at all. If guys like Barzal play for the AHL instead of the CHL, the product in the CHL is watered down, and there is less competition for the young guys coming in the league at 16,17 years old.

It's not going to hurt Barzal at all to go down and play in the CHL, he's only had one year where he's been above average offensively. It can't hurt him to go down and rack up the points.

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

Was there really a choice though? The lockout prevented any possibility of them playing in the NHL that year.

But even then, there have been so many guys...Brayden Schenn, Ryan Strome, Max Domi, Mark Schiefele, Matt Dumba are just a few that have and they are doing just fine. Some guys just need extra time

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

They will never change that NHL or CHL rule for that age group after drafted... A lot of CHL teams would probably have to fold if they lost their top 18 and 19 year olds to the AHL. There are so many teams that have real bad attendance numbers and then if you take away the players that people pay to see, teams will fold.

I know a lot of teams are already facing issues with the growing numbers deciding to go the Junior A route.

We can squash this idea... its never gonna happen

 

[tigervixxxen]

It's like repeating the 6th grade, it doesn't hurt but doesn't get you closer to graduation. Most players can benefit from AHL time and if they don't get it now then they will just have to wait and do that step later, even those who stick in the NHL first.

We are talking about a dozen players at most, many of whom aren't in the CHL right now. Across three leagues that is not going to water it down. If anything giving jobs to talented younger players could even be a benefit. Or the league appealing to players who could play there in their draft year and then not have to worry about getting stuck with no options afterwards.

I'm a fan of the CHL, I get how important young stars are in those leagues (funny most are actually mid round picks) but I also know how beneficial the AHL is for young players and I don't like seeing players who could benefit right now from it just because they happen to be born a couple months later.

Barzal is going to force a trade to one of the "haves" if they send him back anyway, that's real great for the integrity of the league too.

 

[Devil Dancer]

Empirical evidence would suggest he's not ready for the NHL.

What empirical evidence is that? The kid has only played in two games.

 

[landy92mack29]

What empirical evidence is that? The kid has only played in two games.

The fact he's only played 2 games IS the evidence

 

[mouser]

Was there really a choice though? The lockout prevented any possibility of them playing in the NHL that year.

Whether there was an NHL choice or not, it remains true their development wasn't harmed by going back to the CHL instead of the AHL that season. If anything, players who were NHL-ready and couldn't play in NHL due to the lockout would strengthen the opinion that players who aren't NHL-ready are not harmed by going back to the CHL ("where they have nothing left to learn") instead of the AHL.