C Jack Hughes - USNTDP (2019, 1st, NJD) Part 5

[Rabid Ranger]

Don’t act dense. This discussion was had many times throughout the season. You can disagree, but you surely know what the criticisms are about his ability to play center.

....which chiefly revolve around his size, unless you're in the wide turn camp.

 

[DVision44]

Don’t act dense. This discussion was had many times throughout the season. You can disagree, but you surely know what the criticisms are about his ability to play center.

Honestly never heard this

Can you give the reason?

Please...

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

....which chiefly revolve around his size, unless you're in the wide turn camp.

You are choosing to be intellectually dishonest, so I’ll re-explain it. You didn’t forget these discussions throughout the season, you want to conveniently not acknowledge them because you think it helps your argument, as if doing so would make this discussion go away and no one would ever re-explain to those that didn’t follow. The only thing this accomplished is making someone explain this again. When people act like this to be the message board champion, my level of respect for them goes down.

The areas of concern with Hughes ability to play center are nearly every part of the game. He plays nothing like a center. People mention his height, but height is not something that keeps players from playing center. Size could, which is height and build. Hughes is built like a kid. He’ll be tossed around physically in the NHL in board battles, which is required more of centers than wingers. That can improve, but I can’t remember a player his size in recent memory that played center in the NHL. He’s not even good in board battles against junior players right now.

Hughes plays almost entirely a perimeter game that is predicated on a pond hockey style. It is antithetical to his style to ask him to play with more responsibility in his decision making, positioning and approach to creating plays. He rarely ventured to the middle of the ice against juniors. Some NHL centers play on the perimeter, but one thing all of them do is take up some positions centrally. They aren’t all perimeter. Hughes is all perimeter right now.

Hughes is a bad defensive player against juniors. He was the captain of the NTDP both years, but he wasn’t a penalty killer. I think you can count on one hand the captains in the NHL that don’t penalty kill. How can you lead your team when you forget to play in one zone? He’s a very gifted hockey player and we are always told how hard he works, but at least in games, the defensive zone is not part of how hard he works. He rarely shows the same level of effort defensively, and even the times he does show defensive effort, he doesn’t exhibit much caution in a zone where you can’t be attempting to dangle players in. Hughes also had a habit at the NTDP of double shifting himself and being left out on the ice very tired, although I saw less of this his second season and I’m sure this would be sorted out in an NHL locker room.

He’s horrible on face offs. This is not only about being 18 years old, considering the face-off stats come only from international tournaments, and he was always way behind his teammates in the faceoff categories. Those NTDP centers were great on face offs, occupying the top spots at the WJC18 this year, except for Hughes. He lags well behind his teammates in that area. I can’t imagine he’ll be better against NHL’ers in this category right now than he would be against kids his own age.

I don’t understand the insistence for Hughes to play center. It doesn’t mean he’s bad if he plays wing, but professional hockey is a business. Why would you use him at a position he doesn’t have the skill set to play just because he’s a good player that was picked 1OA? You are going to get less out of him, if you force him into playing the position to satisfy what he wants and what the prevailing thoughts are about his position. There are many good players who were moved off center because stylistically their game was better suited to playing the wing.

 

[Blender]

You can't remember a player of similar size to Hughes that plays center? You just aren't looking.

Brayden Point - 5'10" 166lbs
Claude Giroux - 5'11" 185lbs
Max Domi - 5'10" 193lbs
Matt Duchene - 5'11" 195lbs
Joe Pavelski - 5'11" 190lbs

Jack Hughes is listed at 5'10" 170lbs right now, and younger than all of them so he will put on more muscle. They were all much slighter at his age.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

You can't remember a player of similar size to Hughes that plays center? You just aren't looking.

Brayden Point - 5'10" 166lbs
Claude Giroux - 5'11" 185lbs
Max Domi - 5'10" 193lbs
Matt Duchene - 5'11" 195lbs
Joe Pavelski - 5'11" 190lbs

Jack Hughes is listed at 5'10" 170lbs right now, and younger than all of them so he will put on more muscle. They were all much slighter at his age.

If you want to take the heaviest weight for Hughes, you should do the same for Point. Be consistent. Don't inflate the one that plays for your team and then take the lowest listed weight for other players. I don't even know if those other weights you listed are accurate, considering the weight you listed for Point isn't accurate. The heaviest I can find for him is 174.

If so, you have one comparable in the league for Hughes build and playing center. Players who are 20+ pounds more than him are not the same size.

 

[Blender]

If you want to take the heaviest weight for Hughes, you should do the same for Point. Be consistent. Don't inflate the one that plays for your team and then take the lowest listed weight for other players. I don't even know if those other weights you listed are accurate, considering the weight you listed for Point isn't accurate. The heaviest I can find for him is 174.

If so, you have one comparable in the league for Hughes build and playing center. Players who are 20+ pounds more than him are not the same size.

I took all of them from NHL.com except for Hughes (since he obviously isn't listed there as a player). Although his profile on NHL.com also lists him as 5'10" 170lbs, the exact weight I got from eliteprospects for him. So I don't see any consistency issues here, the same source has been used for every one of them. If you want to go cherry pick weights from different sources to fit your argument...

Weight isn't the only factor, and in the modern NHL most players are looking to shed weight not add it. I doubt Hughes ever even tries to get into the 190s, he'll lose speed to do it. More likely he'll be in the Point and Giroux range in the 170s or 180s at most.

Point and Giroux are probably the two closest comparables, and are the best of the group anyways. That you "can’t remember" that either of them exist, especially Point who is listed as smaller than Hughes and was 12th in scoring this season while playing center, seriously questions either your knowledge of the league or your sincerity.

 

[bigdog16]

I took all of them from NHL.com except for Hughes (since he obviously isn't listed there as a player). Although his profile on NHL.com also lists him as 5'10" 170lbs, the exact weight I got from eliteprospects for him. So I don't see any consistency issues here, the same source has been used for every one of them. If you want to go cherry pick weights from different sources to fit your argument...

Weight isn't the only factor, and in the modern NHL most players are looking to shed weight not add it. I doubt Hughes ever even tries to get into the 190s, he'll lose speed to do it. More likely he'll be in the Point and Giroux range in the 170s or 180s at most.

Point and Giroux are probably the two closest comparables, and are the best of the group anyways. That you "can’t remember" that either of them exist, especially Point who is listed as smaller than Hughes and was 12th in scoring this season while playing center, seriously questions either your knowledge of the league or your sincerity.

There are exceptions but players definitely dont look to shed weight. They pack as much as they can on in the offseason and end up losing 10-15 lbs throughout the season

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I took all of them from NHL.com except for Hughes (since he obviously isn't listed there as a player). Although his profile on NHL.com also lists him as 5'10" 170lbs, the exact weight I got from eliteprospects for him. So I don't see any consistency issues here, the same source has been used for every one of them. If you want to go cherry pick weights from different sources to fit your argument...

I am not cherry picking anything, considering I made no initial reference to his weight compared to those players. You made the reference, and you either cherry-picked the website that gives you a more favorable weight for the comparison you want to make or you weren't aware that Point weighs more than that listing.

Weight isn't the only factor, and in the modern NHL most players are looking to shed weight not add it. I doubt Hughes ever even tries to get into the 190s, he'll lose speed to do it. More likely he'll be in the Point and Giroux range in the 170s or 180s at most.

Players who are undersized are rarely among those players trying to shed weight. Right now, we don't know how he'll do physically in the NHL. He might need to gain 25 pounds to not be a huge negative physically in the NHL.

 

[Blender]

There are exceptions but players definitely dont look to shed weight. They pack as much as they can on in the offseason and end up losing 10-15 lbs throughout the season

We're talking about different things here, there has been a huge push in recent years to get faster across the league. Guys that used to play with more muscle mass for strength are now focusing much more on cardio and quickness exercises to stay in competitive in the league. Most players who have been around awhile are now playing lighter than they were before, and you're also seeing more lighter guys being able to quickly step into the league because physical and mental speed are emphasized more than ever in the modern NHL.

 

[Blender]

I am not cherry picking anything, considering I made no initial reference to his weight compared to those players. You made the reference, and you either cherry-picked the website that gives you a more favorable weight for the comparison you want to make or you weren't aware that Point weighs more than that listing.

[citation needed]

Going to have to prove that he actually weighs more than the official NHL and Tampa Bay websites state.

 

[Platypus420]

You are choosing to be intellectually dishonest, so I’ll re-explain it. You didn’t forget these discussions throughout the season, you want to conveniently not acknowledge them because you think it helps your argument, as if doing so would make this discussion go away and no one would ever re-explain to those that didn’t follow. The only thing this accomplished is making someone explain this again. When people act like this to be the message board champion, my level of respect for them goes down.

The areas of concern with Hughes ability to play center are nearly every part of the game. He plays nothing like a center. People mention his height, but height is not something that keeps players from playing center. Size could, which is height and build. Hughes is built like a kid. He’ll be tossed around physically in the NHL in board battles, which is required more of centers than wingers. That can improve, but I can’t remember a player his size in recent memory that played center in the NHL. He’s not even good in board battles against junior players right now.

Hughes plays almost entirely a perimeter game that is predicated on a pond hockey style. It is antithetical to his style to ask him to play with more responsibility in his decision making, positioning and approach to creating plays. He rarely ventured to the middle of the ice against juniors. Some NHL centers play on the perimeter, but one thing all of them do is take up some positions centrally. They aren’t all perimeter. Hughes is all perimeter right now.

Hughes is a bad defensive player against juniors. He was the captain of the NTDP both years, but he wasn’t a penalty killer. I think you can count on one hand the captains in the NHL that don’t penalty kill. How can you lead your team when you forget to play in one zone? He’s a very gifted hockey player and we are always told how hard he works, but at least in games, the defensive zone is not part of how hard he works. He rarely shows the same level of effort defensively, and even the times he does show defensive effort, he doesn’t exhibit much caution in a zone where you can’t be attempting to dangle players in. Hughes also had a habit at the NTDP of double shifting himself and being left out on the ice very tired, although I saw less of this his second season and I’m sure this would be sorted out in an NHL locker room.

He’s horrible on face offs. This is not only about being 18 years old, considering the face-off stats come only from international tournaments, and he was always way behind his teammates in the faceoff categories. Those NTDP centers were great on face offs, occupying the top spots at the WJC18 this year, except for Hughes. He lags well behind his teammates in that area. I can’t imagine he’ll be better against NHL’ers in this category right now than he would be against kids his own age.

I don’t understand the insistence for Hughes to play center. It doesn’t mean he’s bad if he plays wing, but professional hockey is a business. Why would you use him at a position he doesn’t have the skill set to play just because he’s a good player that was picked 1OA? You are going to get less out of him, if you force him into playing the position to satisfy what he wants and what the prevailing thoughts are about his position. There are many good players who were moved off center because stylistically their game was better suited to playing the wing.

Dang I gotta say that was a well thought out and lucid reply . Are you a professional scout or did Hughes steal you’re girlfriend . All your points are over exaggerated and clearly you have bias towards Hughes maybe it’s because you are fond of another center say Turcotte who you feel is overshadowed in the public eye and feel the need to bring Hughes down to satisfy your personal agenda IDK , but it’s pretty obvious . Let’s chat at the end of the season and see how it plays out then we’ll know for certain how valid your points are

 

[Blender]

Players who are undersized are rarely among those players trying to shed weight. Right now, we don't know how he'll do physically in the NHL. He might need to gain 25 pounds to not be a huge negative physically in the NHL.

I didn't say anything about Hughes trying to shed weight, that's completely misrepresenting what I said. Of course Hughes is going to need to get stronger, but saying he needs to be 195lbs to not be "a huge negative physically" is laughable.

Your concern trolling in this thread has long become tiresome.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I didn't say anything about Hughes trying to shed weight, that's completely misrepresenting what I said. Of course Hughes is going to need to get stronger, but saying he needs to be 195lbs to not be "a huge negative physically" is laughable.

Your concern trolling in this thread has long become tiresome.

I didn't say you said that Hughes is trying to shed weight, so I didn't misrepresent anything. I'm saying that shedding weight is something that almost certainly will not apply to Hughes at any point in his career, so its a worthless point to bring up.

We don't know what weight he'll need to be to to not be a huge negative physically. Point makes up for his lack of weight with a very good motor, work ethic and smart defensive play. The comparison with Hughes stops and ends with their weight. Hughes isn't close to that level of two-way player, so to say that Hughes will play at a similar weight to Point or Giroux is highly speculative.

I don't know what concern trolling is. You don't monopolize the thread because your team drafted this player. If you want to cheerlead for the player your team drafted, go to your team section. I don't go there because I don't have interest in cheerleading for Hughes or any player. I comment in threads in this section as I see fit, irregardless of team. The fact that you are so worried about some comments that don't paint your team's player in the most positive light shows that you aren't here to actually discuss the player, you are here to try to shape the way that Hughes is perceived.

 

[Oak]

I think Hughes will start at wing and probably stay there for a while. I can see him being a player similar to Nikita Kucherov. A skilled play making winger who can also score. You guys are bringing up the Brayden Point comparisons because of size but Hughes does not play the same style of hockey as Point. Point thrives in physicality, Hughes does not.

Just my opinion though. Guess we will all see when the season starts. Good luck to the Devils. Lot of exciting stuff happening in the metro hockey area.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Dang I gotta say that was a well thought out and lucid reply . Are you a professional scout or did Hughes steal you’re girlfriend . All your points are over exaggerated and clearly you have bias towards Hughes maybe it’s because you are fond of another center say Turcotte who you feel is overshadowed in the public eye and feel the need to bring Hughes down to satisfy your personal agenda IDK , but it’s pretty obvious . Let’s chat at the end of the season and see how it plays out then we’ll know for certain how valid your points are

That must be it. Try to convince everyone here that my opinion must be dismissed because I hate your team's player instead of trying to address anything thats been said. I've seen this drill from Devils fans in recent months many times. Of course, in 90+% of those instances, you lot couldn't possibly address what I said because you don't have the knowledge about the player to form an opinion. Yet, I'm wrong and I hate your team's player.

Why even try to make this type of point? You obviously are trying to shape how Hughes is viewed, otherwise you wouldn't try to attack me. Who would read this thread, and be convinced by this type of argument? Some people might disagree with my opinion, but I don't think anyone is going to be convinced by your conspiracy theories of why I hate your team's player. It only looks pathetic to try to hate on someone because they gave an unfavorable opinion about what they've seen from a player on your team.

 

[Platypus420]

Because I’m right about you and you’re wrong about Hughes . But hey you keep trolling .

 

[DVision44]

I've heard nothing....ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... about Hughes being unable to handle the center position from ANYONE but some of the pro scouts in here... but hey nobody knows jack about Jack accept Pavel

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

First I've heard of this perimeter thing. From what I've heard the concern is the opposite: That he was able to slice and dice the middle of the offensive zone for the USNTDP but won't be able to do that in the NHL against MEN.

Why? Because he's too small, which is really the root cause for all of Hughes criticism, either explicitly or implicitly.

 

[Blender]

I didn't say you said that Hughes is trying to shed weight, so I didn't misrepresent anything. I'm saying that shedding weight is something that almost certainly will not apply to Hughes at any point in his career, so its a worthless point to bring up.

We don't know what weight he'll need to be to to not be a huge negative physically. Point makes up for his lack of weight with a very good motor, work ethic and smart defensive play. The comparison with Hughes stops and ends with their weight. Hughes isn't close to that level of two-way player, so to say that Hughes will play at a similar weight to Point or Giroux is highly speculative.

I don't know what concern trolling is. You don't monopolize the thread because your team drafted this player. If you want to cheerlead for the player your team drafted, go to your team section. I don't go there because I don't have interest in cheerleading for Hughes or any player. I comment in threads in this section as I see fit, irregardless of team. The fact that you are so worried about some comments that don't paint your team's player in the most positive light shows that you aren't here to actually discuss the player, you are here to try to shape the way that Hughes is perceived.

It's not worthless to bring up because players are all trying to get lighter and faster, as I said. Hughes isn't going to need to "bulk up" substantially, nor will he try to as that isn't where the league is at right now. That was my point, and that's why it's relevant. Does he need to get stronger? Yes, absolutely, but no where close to what you have been claiming.

Neither Point nor Giroux were great defensive players at 18. Hughes is an exceptional skater and is going into a team with some very good defensive forward. He'll get better in this area, and the fact that he is bad at it now is inconsequential. Crosby as one example was horrendous defensively at 18, and now he's one of the top two-way players in the game.

You clearly don't know what concern trolling is, because nothing in your last paragraph is relevant to it. Concern trolling is when you obfuscate your position by pretending to be an ally of people who hold a different position than you on the same topic. This usually takes the form of hiding criticism in a lot of "expressing concerns" (where the term comes from), "just asking questions", etc. All things you have done a ton of in this thread and others since the draft lottery. It's an incredibly dishonest tactic instead of being upfront about your position and motivation, you pretend like you really want Hughes and the Devils with Hughes to succeed but you're just "concerned" about certain issues and think they should handle it differently. I have no problem with honest criticism, but your routine is far from that.

Still waiting on responses from you on the following:

• Why isn't the NHL and each team a reliable source for height/weight data?
• What is your explanation for "not remembering" smaller players that play center exist? Shifting the goal posts by heaping on tons of extra criteria after the fact isn't going to cut it.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Why? Because he's too small, which is really the root cause for all of Hughes criticism, either explicitly or implicitly.

This is an argument grounded in such incredibly bad faith. There is no room for discussion when you can pull this argument out. In other words, you can't be wrong because if you are, you can just throw out this rubbish that there's no way of devising any barometer to judge right or wrong.

I think people who read these threads and aren't fans of the Devils are able to see who tries to muddy the waters of discussion about Hughes because its not favorable towards their team, and who posts in these threads to discuss these players because they are fans of hockey.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

You clearly don't know what concern trolling is, because nothing in your last paragraph is relevant to it. Concern trolling is when you obfuscate your position by pretending to be an ally of people who hold a different position than you on the same topic. This usually takes the form of hiding criticism in a lot of "expressing concerns" (where the term comes from), "just asking questions", etc. All things you have done a ton of in this thread and others since the draft lottery. It's an incredibly dishonest tactic instead of being upfront about your position and motivation, you pretend like you really want Hughes and the Devils with Hughes to succeed but you're just "concerned" about certain issues and think they should handle it differently. I have no problem with honest criticism, but your routine is far from that.

Thanks for stating the obvious that I already said that I don't know what it is, nor do I care. You are trying to play amateur psychologist about my motivations. How about just addressing the arguments made and stop trying to muddy the waters?

I've been posting about Hughes game for two seasons now. I post my opinion in the threads of the prospects I see play. There's nothing complicated about it. You don't need to try to play amateur psychologist about it.

Since you are such a good amateur psychologist, why is this only a problem with Devils fans and only a problem the last few months? Other teams fans aren't trying to attack anyone who criticizes their team's prospect.

Still waiting on responses from you on the following:

• Why isn't the NHL and each team a reliable source for height/weight data?
• What is your explanation for "not remembering" smaller players that play center exist? Shifting the goal posts by heaping on tons of extra criteria after the fact isn't going to cut it.

I apologize for not giving you a response to every bad point you make. The NHL website is not an end all be all source for heights and weights. Why would it be? When it comes to the weight of a player listed between 165-174 pounds, I'll tend to believe the heavier weight. It's likely that a young player will gain weight as they get older. If you want to believe the NHL website, knock yourself out. It makes no sense why you'd want to do that instead of believing the heavier weight.

Your list of smaller players is not accurate. Smaller doesn't connote height. Devils fans keep conflating this. I wonder why.

At best, you might have a list of two. I wouldn't say Hughes build particularly resembles Giroux. 15 pound difference. Weak example at best. I thought Point weighed more than he does. This isn't a weight remembering contest. It doesn't take away from the point being made that there's one example or borderline a second.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Let us know if you need any help getting down from that cross.

Though, by the look of it you seem pretty comfortable up there.

 

[goonybird]

I demand an apology

 

[TheUnseenHand]

I haven't seen anything to suggest Hughes is strictly a perimeter player. He looks to me to be more of an all over the damn place player. He may find less room to opperate that way in the NHL, but I don't think that means he fears playing on the inside or is some passive, float around the outside type player. He's just been so far ahead of his peers for so long that he's been able to dance around the entire rink.

 

[93LEAFS]

Hughes is a bad defensive player against juniors. He was the captain of the NTDP both years, but he wasn’t a penalty killer. I think you can count on one hand the captains in the NHL that don’t penalty kill. How can you lead your team when you forget to play in one zone? He’s a very gifted hockey player and we are always told how hard he works, but at least in games, the defensive zone is not part of how hard he works. He rarely shows the same level of effort defensively, and even the times he does show defensive effort, he doesn’t exhibit much caution in a zone where you can’t be attempting to dangle players in. Hughes also had a habit at the NTDP of double shifting himself and being left out on the ice very tired, although I saw less of this his second season and I’m sure this would be sorted out in an NHL locker room.

I thought this claim was a bit bold. So, I actually looked into it. Very few of the forwards who are captains are actually full-time PKers for their teams. In many cases they are swingmen (they fill in for a forward on one of the two units if one of those forwards is serving the penalty). Ovechkin and Lee just aren't ever used. All these guys played less than 50 minutes Landeskog, Benn, Crosby, Eichel, Stamkos and McDavid. The only guys who were really used as primary PKers are Barkov, Kopitar, Toews, Giroux and Mikko Koivu. Marner who was the Leafs swing guy, and only put full-time on the PK after the deadline due to the trade of Par Lindholm played more PK minutes than everyone but Barkov, Kopitar, Giroux, and Toews, he played more than Koivu due to Koivu's injury. So of the 16 forwards who are captains, only 5 are really full-time PKers. Wheeler would be next on the list playing 90 pk minutes this year. Pretty much all defenceman who are captains though are full-time PKers. There's also quite a few teams who don't have captains. For example, unless the Leafs make Rielly or Marner captain (both unlikely, it's probably going to Matthews or JT if they ever name one) it is likely that they add to the list of captains who aren't full-time PKers.