Sportsnet: Burke says outscoring your opponent is "Beer League" really likes Campbell/Clifford trade.

[BertCorbeau]

The Isles are a funny comparison for the Leafs. A team with questionable underlying numbers that got propped up by unsustainably hot goaltending, and then began to go south when goaltending couldnt keep up.

Leafs have great underlying numbers and got constrained by awful goaltending.

So I dont know why the Isles shpuld be viewed as this modle to envy....

The Leafs have $40 mill tied up in Matthews, Marner, Tavares, and Nylander for at least the next 3+ years.

The Isles have $40 mil tied up in Lee, Nelson, Bailey, Ladd, Eberle, Boychuk, and Leddy for the next 3+ years.

Remember quantity =/= quality

 

[4thline]

So I dont know why the Isles shpuld be viewed as this modle to envy....

It's genious, holding the Isles up to scrutiny let's us figure out the their cap mis-management has turned them into a prime OS target for a one of a pair of great young defensemen.

 

[Azail]

And yet, better than us this year and a deeper playoff run last year.

I am confused how a team out of the playoffs is better than a team in.
OK, lets take points percentage, NYI have 1 or 2 points more. OK, go take your 'better' NYI team, I'll stick with the young Leafs thanks.

 

[The CyNick]

I am confused how a team out of the playoffs is better than a team in.
OK, lets take points percentage, NYI have 1 or 2 points more. OK, go take your 'better' NYI team, I'll stick with the young Leafs thanks.

Both teams would be in the playoffs. Isles ahead of us.

Which is sad given the head start Lou gave Young Kyle. It's like Lou ran the first two legs of a relay race, handed off to Kyle, started back at the start line and passed him before Kyle could get to the last leg.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Both teams would be in the playoffs. Isles ahead of us.

Which is sad given the head start Lou gave Young Kyle. It's like Lou ran the first two legs of a relay race, handed off to Kyle, started back at the start line and passed him before Kyle could get to the last leg.

I'm curious as to why you think we would be in better hands with Lou. You as well as many others think he would have done better on the contract negotiations with our big 3 yet he gave Lee a 7M aav and has 43 pts this year, Nelson a 6M aav and has 43 pts, Bailey a 5M aav with 54 pts, Eberle a 5M aav with 40 pts. He also has almost 9M tied up in his 4th line. Meanwhile comparable players pts wise in Kapanen, Johnsson and Kerfoot are making almost half the money with 3.2, 3.4 and 3.5 cap hits and our 4th line makes less than 3M combined.

Matthews was on pace for 93 pts and around 55 goals as well as being in contention for the rocket richard as the league's best goal scorer and being a top 10 center in the league making 11.63M. I would say that is close to fair value. Marner was on pace for 92 pts at 10.893M. Again close to fair value for one of the top playmaking wingers in the league. Nylander was on pace for 71 pts and 35+ goals at 6.9 which is fair to great value. I don't see these as terrible contracts as their production currently stands. Also based on the contracts Lou has given out to complimentary players and grinders on the Isles I don't see how he would have manhandled our star players on their RFA contracts.

Lou's big move was signing imo the league's best coach. He is probably the leagues best defensive coach and has their roster built through workers and grinders buying in and their goalies are greatly benefitting from it as well. However they're a team that struggles to score goals but are paying their players to produce points. The isles only have 3M in cap space. So which would you rather have, a team that has many star players locked up that can add the complimentary, worker, grinder type players for cheap or a team full of highly paid grinders that lack the talent to sustain their success long term?

 

[The CyNick]

I'm curious as to why you think we would be in better hands with Lou. You as well as many others think he would have done better on the contract negotiations with our big 3 yet he gave Lee a 7M aav and has 43 pts this year, Nelson a 6M aav and has 43 pts, Bailey a 5M aav with 54 pts, Eberle a 5M aav with 40 pts. He also has almost 9M tied up in his 4th line. Meanwhile comparable players pts wise in Kapanen, Johnsson and Kerfoot are making almost half the money with 3.2, 3.4 and 3.5 cap hits and our 4th line makes less than 3M combined.

Matthews was on pace for 93 pts and around 55 goals as well as being in contention for the rocket richard as the league's best goal scorer and being a top 10 center in the league making 11.63M. I would say that is close to fair value. Marner was on pace for 92 pts at 10.893M. Again close to fair value for one of the top playmaking wingers in the league. Nylander was on pace for 71 pts and 35+ goals at 6.9 which is fair to great value. I don't see these as terrible contracts as their production currently stands. Also based on the contracts Lou has given out to complimentary players and grinders on the Isles I don't see how he would have manhandled our star players on their RFA contracts.

Lou's big move was signing imo the league's best coach. He is probably the leagues best defensive coach and has their roster built through workers and grinders buying in and their goalies are greatly benefitting from it as well. However they're a team that struggles to score goals but are paying their players to produce points. The isles only have 3M in cap space. So which would you rather have, a team that has many star players locked up that can add the complimentary, worker, grinder type players for cheap or a team full of highly paid grinders that lack the talent to sustain their success long term?

I'll take the GM that took a team that was expected to be bottom 5 and in one offseason got them out of the first round vs the GM who was given elite level stars and turned them into a bubble playoff team that looks like they have little chance of winning a game in the playoffs much less win a round.

 

[Bomber0104]

I'll take the GM that took a team that was expected to be bottom 5 and in one offseason got them out of the first round vs the GM who was given elite level stars and turned them into a bubble playoff team that looks like they have little chance of winning a game in the playoffs much less win a round.

Yeah but the lead singer of the Arkells and the fanboys say Stick Boy is doing a great job...

You make an argument, but I'm still not sure who to believe?

 

[Bomber0104]

The Leafs have $40 mill tied up in Matthews, Marner, Tavares, and Nylander for at least the next 3+ years.

The Isles have $40 mil tied up in Lee, Nelson, Bailey, Ladd, Eberle, Boychuk, and Leddy for the next 3+ years.

Remember quantity =/= quality

And also remember, fudging numbers doesn't do the Leafs any favors either.

The top 7 Leafs players next year: $56.10 million
The top 7 Isles players next year: $40.5 million

Tell me what good you're doing comparing the caphits of the top 4 Leafs versus the top 7 Islanders players?

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

I'll take the GM that took a team that was expected to be bottom 5 and in one offseason got them out of the first round vs the GM who was given elite level stars and turned them into a bubble playoff team that looks like they have little chance of winning a game in the playoffs much less win a round.

You didn't address my question about the contracts given out by both GMs and roster construction.

Again Lou hired the best coach in the league imo. Other than that all Lou has done to that team is bring in Lehner for 1 year and then signed Varlamov the next and then brought back Martin and sign Komarov. Lou hasn't done much with building that team.

Most of the credit should go to Trotz for their early success. That team plays great defensive hockey due to Trotz's system and the goalies have been outstanding behind them. Hard work will only get you so far. You need talent and eventually that will trump over hard work. Look at what Trotz did with Nashville all those years. They had a team that was amazing defensively and would grind out low scoring games but could never get beyond the 2nd round because they never had star players. Then Trotz takes his system and applies it to a star filled team with the caps. All of a sudden he has the best pure goal scorer the planet has ever seen as well as Kuznetsov, Backstrom, Oshie and Carlson. It took them a few years but eventually won the cup.

As far as the regression under Dubas, I don't think half of our D core being injured for a good portion of the season, 2 of which are our best 2 dmen, a month or so of poor play by our starting goalie is on the GM. It also appears that coaching played a factor. A full season with Keefe and we could possibly have another 10 or so points in the standings.

 

[Joey Hoser]

And also remember, fudging numbers doesn't do the Leafs any favors either.

The top 7 Leafs players next year: $56.10 million
The top 7 Isles players next year: $40.5 million

Tell me what good you're doing comparing the caphits of the top 4 Leafs versus the top 7 Islanders players?

I want the Leafs' core 10 times out of 10 over the Islanders', regardless of how you frame it.

 

[4thline]

And also remember, fudging numbers doesn't do the Leafs any favors either.

The top 7 Leafs players next year: $56.10 million
The top 7 Isles players next year: $40.5 million

Tell me what good you're doing comparing the caphits of the top 4 Leafs versus the top 7 Islanders players?

How about top 9 F vs top 9F

Barzal 9.5* + Lee 7 + Nelson 6 + Eberle 5.5 + Ladd 5.5 + Bailey 5+ Pageau 5 + Clutterbuck 3.5 + Cizikas 3.25
=50.25

Matthews 11.63 + Tavares 11 + Marner 10.93 + Nylander 6.96 + Kerfoot 3.5 + Kapanen 3.2 + Hyman 2.25 + Mikheyev 2.25* + Engvall 1.25
=52.95

* Estimates, assuming Johnsson traded,

Keep in mind that there's a good chance that Lou is going to erase that gap with a Ladd for Parise move, and that even if they were to make their equivalent of a Johnsson move with Clutterbuck than Komarov just steps into the top 9.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Yeah but the lead singer of the Arkells and the fanboys say Stick Boy is doing a great job...

You make an argument, but I'm still not sure who to believe?

Perhaps you should try actually adding substantial arguments to a debate rather than just saying someone is doing a bad job and making condescending remarks.

 

[4thline]

From the mouths of Isles fans..This Team is Horrible (All Purpose Venting Thread)

"Someone says Lou was brought in to clean up Snow's mess.
Who's going to clean up Lou's ?"

"Our “core” is a bunch of 30 year olds locked up in long term contracts. We have no assets to move them, little draft stock, very little roster flexibility and a shitty prospect pool. We couldn’t rebuild if we wanted to because all our veterans are on extended deals. Hate to break it to all the people touting that Lou had a “3 -5 year plan” but this situation is going to be a lot worse in the next few years."

"If the Islanders aren't going to rebuild than they will be in limbo for a long time."

"Sad to say but Lou's a big part of the equation and has been a problem rather than a solution. Lou is hugely responsible for our bad cap situation and the 30 and over aging core."


When you actually take a minute to look at the islanders situation (beyond Trotz's uncanny ability to get the most out of teams) it's pretty clear why we moved on from Lou. The man wants to win again before he dies, and f*** whoever comes after him. Twice now he's built competitive teams on the backs of underpaid young talent, but had no plan to transition once that talent needed to be paid.

Maybe he would have given us a slightly better chance to win these last two seasons, but it's pretty clear that he'd be perfectly willing to ruin us long term to do it.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

From the mouths of Isles fans..This Team is Horrible (All Purpose Venting Thread)

"Someone says Lou was brought in to clean up Snow's mess.
Who's going to clean up Lou's ?"

"Our “core” is a bunch of 30 year olds locked up in long term contracts. We have no assets to move them, little draft stock, very little roster flexibility and a shitty prospect pool. We couldn’t rebuild if we wanted to because all our veterans are on extended deals. Hate to break it to all the people touting that Lou had a “3 -5 year plan” but this situation is going to be a lot worse in the next few years."

"If the Islanders aren't going to rebuild than they will be in limbo for a long time."

"Sad to say but Lou's a big part of the equation and has been a problem rather than a solution. Lou is hugely responsible for our bad cap situation and the 30 and over aging core."


When you actually take a minute to look at the islanders situation (beyond Trotz's uncanny ability to get the most out of teams) it's pretty clear why we moved on from Lou. The man wants to win again before he dies, and f*** whoever comes after him. Twice now he's built competitive teams on the backs of underpaid young talent, but had no plan to transition once that talent needed to be paid.

Maybe he would have given us a slightly better chance to win these last two seasons, but it's pretty clear that he'd be perfectly willing to ruin us long term to do it.

Great post. Thanks for sharing

 

[Bomber0104]

Perhaps you should try actually adding substantial arguments to a debate rather than just saying someone is doing a bad job and making condescending remarks.

Nah, I'm good.

Dubas diehards are way softer and easier to deal with than the Burke ones I used to go toe-to-toe with.

But that shouldn't be a surprise.

 

[Bomber0104]

I want the Leafs' core 10 times out of 10 over the Islanders', regardless of how you frame it.

And you pay for that choice.

$40 million is considerably more than $24.5 million for the same amount of players.

With that comes opportunity costs.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Nah, I'm good.

Dubas diehards are way softer and easier to deal with than the Burke ones I used to go toe-to-toe with.

But that shouldn't be a surprise.

You run away from an argument but call the other person soft

I guess you can't dismantle my argument. Can't say I was surprised by your response.

 

[Joey Hoser]

And you pay for that choice.

Yeah, gladly.

$40 million is considerably more than $24.5 million for the same amount of players.

Yeah, but they're like, way better players.

With that comes opportunity costs.

Whatever man. I'll never understand the logic of wishing our players weren't so good.

 

[Bomber0104]

You run away from an argument but call the other person soft

I guess you can't dismantle my argument. Can't say I was surprised by your response.

Who's running? You never made an argument junior.

Results are held to a higher standard for some people. For other people/fanboys, less so.

We can all tell where your standards rest.

 

[Bomber0104]

Yeah, gladly.



Yeah, but they're like, way better players.





Whatever man. I'll never understand the logic of wishing our players weren't so good.

When the best players in the world are being paid several million less across the board for higher terms, that's going to matter in the end.

Ignore that all you want Joey, but you'll be disappointed by the result in the end.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Who's running? You never made an argument junior.

Results are held to a higher standard for some people. For other people/fanboys, less so.

We can all tell where your standards rest.

You originally replied to the Cynick's reply to one of my posts in which I made several points. Instead of arguing any of my points you just made a sarcastic comment about Dubas fanboys thinking he's doing a great job. I then asked you to make an argument and you replied with " nah, I'm good". Looks like running to me.

 

[Menzinger]

How about top 9 F vs top 9F

Barzal 9.5* + Lee 7 + Nelson 6 + Eberle 5.5 + Ladd 5.5 + Bailey 5+ Pageau 5 + Clutterbuck 3.5 + Cizikas 3.25
=50.25

Matthews 11.63 + Tavares 11 + Marner 10.93 + Nylander 6.96 + Kerfoot 3.5 + Kapanen 3.2 + Hyman 2.25 + Mikheyev 2.25* + Engvall 1.25
=52.95

* Estimates, assuming Johnsson traded,

Keep in mind that there's a good chance that Lou is going to erase that gap with a Ladd for Parise move, and that even if they were to make their equivalent of a Johnsson move with Clutterbuck than Komarov just steps into the top 9.

Its crazy this is even a debate. I think thats also being a bit low in Barzal too. Fun game with the Isles is guessing how many of those 2nd and 3rd tier guys Lous replacement will have to buyout

 

[Bomber0104]

Its crazy this is even a debate. I think thats also being a bit low in Barzal too. Fun game with the Isles is guessing how many of those 2nd and 3rd tier guys Lous replacement will have to buyout

Remember when you were littering threads saying Brock Nelson was the worst contract of all time?

Tell us more about your expertise of Islanders players.

He nearly beat your boy Nylander in point totals this year on a UFA contract (as a centre)

Shows what you know...

 

[Menzinger]

Remember when you were littering threads saying Brock Nelson was the worst contract of all time?

Tell us more about your expertise of Islanders players.

He nearly beat your boy Nylander in point totals this year on a UFA contract.

Shows what you know...

"My boy"? Hes a Leafs player, you know the team we're both supposedly cheering for....

Nylander was on pace for 90+points following the coaching change. So im pretty fine sticking with my priase of him. And hes still cheaper than Lee

What a strange thing to bring up lol

 

[Bomber0104]

"My boy"? Hes a Leafs player, you know the team we're both supposedly cheering for....

Nylander was on pace for 90+points following the coaching change. So im pretty fine sticking with my priase of him. And hes still cheaper than Lee

What a strange thing to bring up lol

We were talking about Nelson, not Lee. Stop trying to BS like always.

You were dead wrong about Nelson with your doom and gloom assessment of his UFA contract.

He nearly eclipsed Nylander in points this year while playing a premium position.

I know you think you're a professional student of hockey, but sorry, once again you were professionally dead wrong.