Boston Bruins Bruins Prospects Discussion IV - Mod warning 565

[finchster]

So, skill development is not linear in Pro leagues, but it is linear in amateur leagues like the CHL?

Interesting.

Isn't that self-evident?
There is a completely different dynamic when you play in the NHL against 700ish of the best players in the world and youth leagues that have a limited talent pool due to age or players signing pro-contracts. In that environment (CHL), performance will obviously be more linear than the NHL; players leave the NHL when they are not good enough and players leave the CHL when they are too good or too old.

Take a look at the Bruins forwards who played in the CHL what they did after their draft year.

Player|After the draft
Krejci|CzechU20 to QMJHL
Bergeron|QMJHL to NHL
Marchand|Higher GPG and PPG and a killer playoff
Beleskey|Higher GPG and PPG
Spooner|Higher GPG and PPG

How about former Bruins?

Player|After the draft
Lucic|Much higher GPG and PPG
Horton|OHL to NHL
Ryder|Higher GPG and PPG
Campbell|Higher GPG and PPG
Paille|Higher GPG and PPG (same amount of points in 8 fewer games)
Kelly|Fewer points, less GPG but the same PPG in 5 fewer games

While scoring more points after your draft is no guarantee of future success, it is a good indicator. Now since this was originally about Zboril, I've already stated it doesn't really work the same way for defencemen. But having a bad year after your draft is a red flag unless there is a very good reason.

 

[Montecristo]

Isn't that self-evident?
There is a completely different dynamic when you play in the NHL against 700ish of the best players in the world and youth leagues that have a limited talent pool due to age or players signing pro-contracts. In that environment (CHL), performance will obviously be more linear than the NHL; players leave the NHL when they are not good enough and players leave the CHL when they are too good or too old.

Take a look at the Bruins forwards who played in the CHL what they did after their draft year.

Player|After the draft
Krejci|CzechU20 to QMJHL
Bergeron|QMJHL to NHL
Marchand|Higher GPG and PPP and a killer playoff
Beleskey|Higher GPG and PPP
Spooner|Higher GPG and PPP

How about former Bruins?

Player|After the draft
Lucic|Much higher GPG and PPP
Horton|OHL to NHL
Ryder|Higher GPG and PPP
Campbell|Higher GPG and PPP
Paille|Higher GPG and PPP (same amount of points in 8 fewer games)
Kelly|Fewer points, less GPG but the same PPG in 5 fewer games

While scoring more points after your draft is no guarantee of future success, it is a good indicator. Now since this was originally about Zboril, I've already stated it doesn't really work the same way for defencemen. But having a bad year after your draft is a red flag unless there is a very good reason.

Right because as a dman a less productive year statistically may also mean a far more productive year in the defensive zone meaning they developed another area of their game. With forwards offensive production is more important

 

[Mr. Make-Believe]

Isn't that self-evident?
There is a completely different dynamic when you play in the NHL against 700ish of the best players in the world and youth leagues that have a limited talent pool due to age or players signing pro-contracts. In that environment (CHL), performance will obviously be more linear than the NHL; players leave the NHL when they are not good enough and players leave the CHL when they are too good or too old.

Take a look at the Bruins forwards who played in the CHL what they did after their draft year.

Player|After the draft
Krejci|CzechU20 to QMJHL
Bergeron|QMJHL to NHL
Marchand|Higher GPG and PPP and a killer playoff
Beleskey|Higher GPG and PPP
Spooner|Higher GPG and PPP

How about former Bruins?

Player|After the draft
Lucic|Much higher GPG and PPP
Horton|OHL to NHL
Ryder|Higher GPG and PPP
Campbell|Higher GPG and PPP
Paille|Higher GPG and PPP (same amount of points in 8 fewer games)
Kelly|Fewer points, less GPG but the same PPG in 5 fewer games

While scoring more points after your draft is no guarantee of future success, it is a good indicator. Now since this was originally about Zboril, I've already stated it doesn't really work the same way for defencemen. But having a bad year after your draft is a red flag unless there is a very good reason.

And for those challenging you...

If you can't state concerns about statistical declines, then you should be equally criticized for optimism based on statistical improvement.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[Mr. Make-Believe]

I have "heard" things like he MAY have some character issues, he MAY be selfish at times. I also see a kid that went from a player who was used in all roles in his draft year and was taken 13th. Then the following year was asked to play as the defensive stopper because the Seadogs had more offensive guys like Chabot and Green.

Understandable that an 18/19 year old kid might be a little peeved about being asked to step back and play a less "glamorous" role. By all accounts he adjusted and played well after a slow start and put up 10 pts is 17 playoff games. This year he had 41 pts in 50 games and played a large role on a very good team.

I'm sure the kid has some warts, most of them do, but I'm hardly going to write him off based on some very vague reports and whispers. I would rather see for myself, and so far he seems to be saying/doing all the right things. Sometimes these kids just mature at different rates (see Marchand). They aren't all going to be Bergeron and 18 going on 80.

Bill had a great write-up in the camp thread where he sang the praises of a dozen of our prospects. Your response to him was solely focused on the ONE negative review where you accused him of a personal bias against Zboril.

Youve done this with me too. I state a bunch of positive stuff, one criticism... And down comes GDs hammer.

I don't think people are as negative as you believe. I think you're focusing on the negative and responding as though it's representative of the whole.

There are genuine concerns about Zboril. Let's not pretend otherwise. Doesnt mean he sucks or that people are writing him off. They're just disappointed that we haven't seen enough evidence that his game has grown as hoped. As (if it's fair) expected.

 

[Montecristo]

I would say in defense of zboril, that some very prominent posters criticized the players effort and make up as an instant analysis and many people on the site latched onto that scouting report and have essentially held Zboril guilty of laziness for the duration of his tenure as a prospect. For that reason I feel like he's gotten a bad rap and like I've said, every time I've watched him he's been a physical impactful player with a great 1st pass. In a lot of ways he reminds me of Charlie mcavoy more so than any other defender in the pool, which puts him at 2nd highest upside in my opinion. So many people use the tired line of how he has all the tools but no toolbox. I hate that analogy. All prospects have tools and the reason they aren't pros is because they haven't been able to consistently use all of them together. So senyshyn has 1 tool, speed. And because he's always fast we don't criticize the fact he doesn't play defense. Meanwhile Zboril can do everything and we know he can so when he doesn't cover someone or makes a bad decision we criticize said decision whereas lauzon will be lauded for "pushing himself beyond his own limitations" or some BS

 

[DKH]

I would say in defense of zboril, that some very prominent posters criticized the players effort and make up as an instant analysis and many people on the site latched onto that scouting report and have essentially held Zboril guilty of laziness for the duration of his tenure as a prospect. For that reason I feel like he's gotten a bad rap and like I've said, every time I've watched him he's been a physical impactful player with a great 1st pass. In a lot of ways he reminds me of Charlie mcavoy more so than any other defender in the pool, which puts him at 2nd highest upside in my opinion. So many people use the tired line of how he has all the tools but no toolbox. I hate that analogy. All prospects have tools and the reason they aren't pros is because they haven't been able to consistently use all of them together. So senyshyn has 1 tool, speed. And because he's always fast we don't criticize the fact he doesn't play defense. Meanwhile Zboril can do everything and we know he can so when he doesn't cover someone or makes a bad decision we criticize said decision whereas lauzon will be lauded for "pushing himself beyond his own limitations" or some BS

The good thing is from here on in we all get to watch him in games.

The odds are in his favor. The Bruins liked his camp and where he is at and now he's there guy.

The Boston coach and GM were both defenseman and if there is one thing this group seems to be good at its defenseman - identifying or training

I went the last 3 days and walked out giving him thumbs up but we will know a lot more when he's playing in the Forum or Maple Leafs Garden

If he's good and I think he is it's a big win for the team and us fans - the Bruins just get deeper and deeper with more options

 

[neelynugs]

There are genuine concerns about Zboril. Let's not pretend otherwise. Doesnt mean he sucks or that people are writing him off.

yes. zboril's play is all over the map, and as i've said before, numerous people have questioned his hockey sense and selfishness. but he's a talented mofo and if he can ever put it together, that's a really good player. since i'm one of the more vocal zboril critics, i want to point to a post by randy who has seen him play a ton since he lives up there:

ranold26 Take it from someone who has seen him countless times here in Saint John, you'll see that wide range consistently. I've seen him play like a man among boys, then play stupidly(cross-ice turnovers) and counter-intuitively(half-assed over-committed pinching). The kid is talented, but he'll need AHL time before people start slotting him in the lineup.

with all that said, i was not at camp and didn't see him play this week...so good to hear the positive reviews from most.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Showed you up? I hope that's not what you think I was intending...

I've seen the light. The holy light. I will never again say anything that could be interpreted as even mildly critical.

Wouldn't want to "pile on" by saying that he hadn't progressed as much as I'd hoped. That was such a brutal beating I brought upon him.

But you and Joe are here to rescue against such atrocity. Thank the almighty.

I came down on Bill because I disagree with him on Zboril. Imo, he was good last year and looked even better this year. There were prospects that I was not that impressed with so I'm not making some general candy cane and sunshine statement.

I don't see what Bill sees with Zboril.

That's it.

As a general rule of thumb, I would say this board is at least 60/40 to the negative (and that's conservative). I find it pretty damn amusing that with all the **** that comes out of people's mouths here, you take such issue with me defending a player and voicing a positive review of his performance. If I had gone along with the majority and said that I was concerned with his play and he underwhelmed me, I guess that would have been ok? I'm sorry, but that's not what I saw.

Also, I have zero issue with Bill having a voice and speaking his mind about any player. I do have an issue with his comments about Zboril falling in a drill and then making assumptions. I would have said the same about any other player in that situation. On Friday, Donato fell in one of the early drills, it happens and is not even worth mentioning unless it's something that occurs consistently.

I think you need to chill a bit.

 

[Mr. Make-Believe]

I came down on Bill because I disagree with him on Zboril. Imo, he was good last year and looked even better this year. There were prospects that I was not that impressed with so I'm not making some general candy cane and sunshine statement.

I don't see what Bill sees with Zboril.

That's it.

As a general rule of thumb, I would say this board is at least 60/40 to the negative (and that's conservative). I find it pretty damn amusing that with all the **** that comes out of people's mouths here, you take such issue with me defending a player and voicing a positive review of his performance. If I had gone along with the majority and said that I was concerned with his play and he underwhelmed me, I guess that would have been ok? I'm sorry, but that's not what I saw.

Also, I have zero issue with Bill having a voice and speaking his mind about any player. I do have an issue with his comments about Zboril falling in a drill and then making assumptions. I would have said the same about any other player in that situation. On Friday, Donato fell in one of the early drills, it happens and is not even worth mentioning unless it's something that occurs consistently.

I think you need to chill a bit.

If there's enough negativity on the boards already, then why do you insist on putting the microscope on positive posts that happen to have criticism in them?

And I have ZERO issue with a positive review of a player. None whatsoever. I respect your opinion just as much as I do Bill's and if you see two different things, I find it interesting and I follow the conversation.

The issue I took, is that out of all the positive he had to say, you had to pick on the one thing he was disappointed with. And as part of your defense, you state your belief that Bill just has something personal against the kid. And if it was just the first time I caught it, I'd have let it be... But we both know it isn't.

When someone is absurdly positive or ludicrously negative, they deserved to be called out. The insane hyperbole... I can't stand it. But when that same philosophy is applied whenever a perceived slight is stated? I'm gonna take exception to that as well.

 

[HumBucker]

I see a few people penciling Bjork into the B's opening lineup. Do people think he's ready for the big club? I really can't say I've followed his progress. What is it that has people so high on him?

 

[ashnathan]

I see a few people penciling Bjork into the B's opening lineup. Do people think he's ready for the big club? I really can't say I've followed his progress. What is it that has people so high on him?

Yeah im waiting for real camp to begin and see how he looks against guys like DeBrusk/Heinen and other Pro guys before i let my expectations go overboard. If he still stands out then by all means roll him!

 

[neelynugs]

I see a few people penciling Bjork into the B's opening lineup. Do people think he's ready for the big club? I really can't say I've followed his progress. What is it that has people so high on him?

i think he's NHL ready, but he's only passed test 1 of 3 tests so far:

1) development camp
2) rookie camp/tournament
3) training camp/preseason games

assuming he continues to impress in each step, he makes the team. why people are high on him: he's quick/fast, smart, responsible defensively, underrated offensively. after watching him following his draft year, he looked more of a pj axelsson-type guy. and since then, he's continued to develop the offensive side of his game to become a dominant player at the college level. i don't think we're talking super high ceiling, but he looks the part of a guy who can eventually be a 20 G/50 PT guy.

 

[DKH]

I'm ecstatic about our prospects and future

This rivals the 79-82 group for both quality and quantity

Until I can see the Zboril, Senyshyn, JFK, Bjork and others in a handful of games I'm basing everything on D.C., college viewing, tape, reading up on from you folks

When they go up against bigger faster stronger guys with reduced decision-making time I can give you my assessment but I'm super super optimistic on all 4 of those guys

Not much to talk about and I'm on to baseball till September 7

Everyone have a safe and happy summer and 'See you in September' (loved that song as a kid

 

[Blowfish]

i think he's NHL ready, but he's only passed test 1 of 3 tests so far:

1) development camp
2) rookie camp/tournament
3) training camp/preseason games

assuming he continues to impress in each step, he makes the team. why people are high on him: he's quick/fast, smart, responsible defensively, underrated offensively. after watching him following his draft year, he looked more of a pj axelsson-type guy. and since then, he's continued to develop the offensive side of his game to become a dominant player at the college level. i don't think we're talking super high ceiling, but he looks the part of a guy who can eventually be a 20 G/50 PT guy.

Is there a rookie camp/tourney this year? Hoping it's in Buffalo again.

 

[Blowfish]

i think he's NHL ready, but he's only passed test 1 of 3 tests so far:

1) development camp
2) rookie camp/tournament
3) training camp/preseason games

assuming he continues to impress in each step, he makes the team. why people are high on him: he's quick/fast, smart, responsible defensively, underrated offensively. after watching him following his draft year, he looked more of a pj axelsson-type guy. and since then, he's continued to develop the offensive side of his game to become a dominant player at the college level. i don't think we're talking super high ceiling, but he looks the part of a guy who can eventually be a 20 G/50 PT guy.

Would you say he has Vesey point total potential first year? Is he a better player?

 

[Fenian24]

Yeah im waiting for real camp to begin and see how he looks against guys like DeBrusk/Heinen and other Pro guys before i let my expectations go overboard. If he still stands out then by all means roll him!

From all that I read he had an outstanding developmental camp but he is much older and more physically mature than most of the prospects at camp, let's see how he does when he gets to the rookie tourney and real camp as some have pointed out.

There will be a huge difference between playing with a small group of one teams prospects as opposed to 3 or 4 other teams prospects, where he will still be older and should have a physical edge over many others in that tournament and especially between playing with peers and then going to a real NHL camp and pre season games. I still think a season or half season in Providence adapting to the pro game and schedule will benefit Bjork n the long run, instead of being forced into a spot he may not be ready for.

To me this is dealer Donny reaching and hoping instead of acquiring an established player in a spot that in my opinion requires one. Donnie's faith in his prospects better be realized otherwise he will be left with little to show for a number of questionable moves, whether they were brought on by Chiarelli's inability to manage the salary cap or not.

 

[Alicat]

is there a rookie camp/tourney this year? Hoping it's in buffalo again.

 

[s3antana5757]

I see a few people penciling Bjork into the B's opening lineup. Do people think he's ready for the big club? I really can't say I've followed his progress. What is it that has people so high on him?

I think, and I don't know for this for sure, there was some promises made to get him to sign. Reading through the lines, that's the conclusion I've drawn. It also wouldn't surprise me in the least if he opened up the season on the RW with Marchand and Bergeron. Whether that's the right decision, we could debate until the season starts and until Christmas if we wanted. Obviously, we'll have to see how he performs and any number of issues could occur. Others can and have given you more information on his skills than I can.

I would really enjoy getting one more veteran to play in the top 6, atleast to have as an option. Or a guy like Duchene that we could play from the 1st-3rd line and could really take some pressure off.

 

[ODAAT]

I think, and I don't know for this for sure, there was some promises made to get him to sign. Reading through the lines, that's the conclusion I've drawn. It also wouldn't surprise me in the least if he opened up the season on the RW with Marchand and Bergeron. Whether that's the right decision, we could debate until the season starts and until Christmas if we wanted. Obviously, we'll have to see how he performs and any number of issues could occur. Others can and have given you more information on his skills than I can.

I would really enjoy getting one more veteran to play in the top 6, atleast to have as an option. Or a guy like Duchene that we could play from the 1st-3rd line and could really take some pressure off.

Not so sure DS makes the kind of promises to try and sweeten the pot or entice a kid to come out early. What I heard Bjork say in his interview on the B`s website is that in talks with the Bruins, it was made clear that there will be spots open for the taking up front and that they (Bruins) believe he has the skill set and the readiness to seriously challenge for one of those spots

https://www.nhl.com/bruins/video/locker-room-raw-anders-bjork/t-277437088/c-52405703

 

[GloryDaze4877]

If there's enough negativity on the boards already, then why do you insist on putting the microscope on positive posts that happen to have criticism in them?

And I have ZERO issue with a positive review of a player. None whatsoever. I respect your opinion just as much as I do Bill's and if you see two different things, I find it interesting and I follow the conversation.

The issue I took, is that out of all the positive he had to say, you had to pick on the one thing he was disappointed with. And as part of your defense, you state your belief that Bill just has something personal against the kid. And if it was just the first time I caught it, I'd have let it be... But we both know it isn't.

When someone is absurdly positive or ludicrously negative, they deserved to be called out. The insane hyperbole... I can't stand it. But when that same philosophy is applied whenever a perceived slight is stated? I'm gonna take exception to that as well.

So, I read Bill's review and agree with the majority of it, (except his take on Zboril) and because he was positive about most of the prospects, I should not say anything?

Please. Of course I'm going to comment on the part/parts I disagreed with.

The thing that I found odd was that when Bill spoke about the other prospects, there was great detail about different facets of their game. The hands, the vision, how they performed in certain drills. With Zboril, it was all generalities. He didn't impress me, hasn't impressed me in any camp, he fell in a drill, "of course he was last". He came back out after leaving the ice, but all we got was "maybe there was something nagging him the rest of the way." No negative details about his performance in the drills or mistakes he made in the scrimmage to let us know why he wasn't impressed.

I suspect it was because Bill had already made up his mind about Zboril after the first few minutes, and probably focused elsewhere. I have done the exact same thing when I was watching a player I wasn't fond of to begin with and they did something early on that I thought confirmed my opinion of them. If you are going to tell me you aren't impressed with a player, tell me why. Was it the stride or mechanics, did they lack speed, was their positioning bad, were they too slow, was the decision making bad, did they play with their head down and lack vision, were their hands bad.

There are a million reasons why you might not like a player. If you are going to give one "I wasn't impressed" in a lengthy review, give me some detail. Where's the beef?

 

[Blowfish]

Yes! So happy about this.

 

[mikelvl]

Not so sure DS makes the kind of promises to try and sweeten the pot or entice a kid to come out early. What I heard Bjork say in his interview on the B`s website is that in talks with the Bruins, it was made clear that there will be spots open for the taking up front and that they (Bruins) believe he has the skill set and the readiness to seriously challenge for one of those spots

https://www.nhl.com/bruins/video/locker-room-raw-anders-bjork/t-277437088/c-52405703

Seems like this kid has a great head on his shoulders and used the time at the WC to ask pro players what it's like prior to making a big decision. Looking forward to seeing him play.

 

[s3antana5757]

Not so sure DS makes the kind of promises to try and sweeten the pot or entice a kid to come out early. What I heard Bjork say in his interview on the B`s website is that in talks with the Bruins, it was made clear that there will be spots open for the taking up front and that they (Bruins) believe he has the skill set and the readiness to seriously challenge for one of those spots

https://www.nhl.com/bruins/video/locker-room-raw-anders-bjork/t-277437088/c-52405703

Again, it's alot of conjecture on my part, but just listening to some of the comments, and especially DS yesterday talking about how Bjork prefers the right side and BC comments about a kid playing with Marchand and Bergy. If he can play and earns it, I have no problem with it.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Isn't that self-evident?
There is a completely different dynamic when you play in the NHL against 700ish of the best players in the world and youth leagues that have a limited talent pool due to age or players signing pro-contracts. In that environment (CHL), performance will obviously be more linear than the NHL; players leave the NHL when they are not good enough and players leave the CHL when they are too good or too old.

Take a look at the Bruins forwards who played in the CHL what they did after their draft year.

Player|After the draft
Krejci|CzechU20 to QMJHL
Bergeron|QMJHL to NHL
Marchand|Higher GPG and PPG and a killer playoff
Beleskey|Higher GPG and PPG
Spooner|Higher GPG and PPG

How about former Bruins?

Player|After the draft
Lucic|Much higher GPG and PPG
Horton|OHL to NHL
Ryder|Higher GPG and PPG
Campbell|Higher GPG and PPG
Paille|Higher GPG and PPG (same amount of points in 8 fewer games)
Kelly|Fewer points, less GPG but the same PPG in 5 fewer games

While scoring more points after your draft is no guarantee of future success, it is a good indicator. Now since this was originally about Zboril, I've already stated it doesn't really work the same way for defencemen. But having a bad year after your draft is a red flag unless there is a very good reason.

Good stuff.

I tend to think that development is not always linear in either the pros, college, or juniors. I like to look at the individual situations. Was a kid only better statistically because he got more PP time, were this kid's numbers down because he was asked to play a different role, things like that.

For example, I just read that Donato is going to play center this year at Harvard. IMO, it's a harder position to play than wing. I won't be surprised or overly concerned if his numbers were to go down as long as he was playing a strong two-way game.

 

[mikelvl]

http://thehockeywriters.com/bruins-top-4-prospects-2017/

Many of the Bruins top prospects have an opportunity to make the team’s roster next season – beyond just the names mentioned above. In a salary cap era so highly dependent on entry-level contracts to offset bigger cap hits, the Bruins could be set up for years to come with the current pool they’ve compiled.

You have to be a real curmudgeon not to be stoked about the talent accumulated over the past couple of years. Thirteen names listed in this article in total and that's not including Pasta,Carlo, Kuraly, Acciari. As a certain famous Kazakhstani citizen once said 'Very niiiiiiice'!!.........he also said 'Be careful C.J.'! which could be applied to a certain Montreal coach