Brooks Orpik - trade him sooner than later?

[jmelm]

Given a number of guys have had their own threads started (Jeffrey, Sutter, etc.), I feel Orpik deserves his own, too.


I really like the idea of having size/toughness/veteran presence, and I really don't like the idea of rushing young guys or giving them too much too soon -- but man, Brooks Orpik was awful tonight. He was responsible for the goal against and the best scoring chance against tonight, and perhaps we should consider trading him sooner than later, before his value diminishes and other teams realize how bad he can be at times.


Today, Orpik stepped up totally unnecessarily on the goal against by Giroux, pinching in to hit a guy on a play that had no upside other than selfish physicality, which directly caused the 2-on-1 on which Giroux scored. (I know Kunitz didn't play this great, but as a forward, you may get a sense of when to cover back because your Dman pinched up on a play that makes sense, but this one did not, and Kunitz wasn't really prepared or thinking properly defensively).


Also, on the pass (unbelievable pass) by Giroux to Wayne Simmonds on the PP that was tipped just wide of a wide-open net that should have been a goal, Brooks was the guy covering Simmonds and didn't take the stick or the body. We were darn lucky Simmonds flubbed on this and it wasn't in the back of our net.


Anyway, you can see both of these plays in great detail on the Game Highlights video on the Pens site or NHL.com. I'm really looking forward to the day, in the not-to-distant future when Brian Dumoulin will be able to step in and replace Orpik, and we'll be a better team for it and without losing any size in the process.


At the same time, Martin had a pretty good game today. Perhaps he is a steadying, veteran force that at only $1.25 mil more against the cap than Brooks, is maybe worth keeping to be paired with a younger guy like Despres, Dumoulin or Bortuzzo. Just sayin'...

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[Jag68Sid87]

I'm with you. If only we could send him to Therrien and Montreal. If you think about it, Brooks really hasn't been Brooks since we won it all. Coincidence?

Back in '09, I thought he was more valuable/important than either Scuderi or Gill. I was wrong. Those guys are better now, and together they were better then.

I think we'll be fine in the post-Orpik era. His physicality has waned too, not just his defensive ability.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The Pens held the Flyers to a single goal. One of the highest scoring teams in the league. Granted no Briere but still. The end result was pretty impressive.

If you trade Orpik who we going to put into the top four? This is a team that can legitimately talk about a cup run and not be laughed at. Unless you are bringing a defenseman in who is better, which is beyond doubtful at this point, Orpik needs to stay where he is. There will be a time soon enough, as some of these prospects become ready, to talk about, and likely acting on, moving him. But that day is a year or two away.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

The Pens held the Flyers to a single goal. One of the highest scoring teams in the league. Granted no Briere but still. The end result was pretty impressive.

If you trade Orpik who we going to put into the top four? This is a team that can legitimately talk about a cup run and not be laughed at. Unless you are bringing a defenseman in who is better, which is beyond doubtful at this point, Orpik needs to stay where he is. There will be a time soon enough, as some of these prospects become ready, to talk about, and likely acting on, moving him. But that day is a year or two away.

It's this kinda talk that gets us ousted in the first round.

 

[Dangles78]

It's this kinda talk that gets us ousted in the first round.

Hahahaha how?

Trading Orpik for futures significantly makes this team worse. There is no reason for the Pens to trade Orpik. Even if his trade value continues to decline season to season, he has greater value to the Pens. Their top-4 is nothing special and if you take him away then you're only setting the Pens back.

I'm not sure how many ******* times I have to say this, but the time is now and we won't get there by trading Orpik or Martin. For **** sake our problem is defense. Bolster the top-4, continue the special team success, you'll see this team go far.

Sure Orpik has been declining since the Cup run, but seriously (and I mean seriously) present a top-4 that will go deep in the playoffs if we trade Orpik. Since most proposed trades see Orpik going for a top-6 winger or less talented D-men.

Don't worry, I'll wait....

 

[Jaded-Fan]

It's this kinda talk that gets us ousted in the first round.

If you can pry a legit improvement from some team at a reasonable cost, sure go right ahead. Nice theory in principle. Now name some names that would reasonable be available at the right cost to make doing this a good idea.

 

[Captain Hook]

There's always been a mix of good and bad with Orpik. I still think his physicality is necessary on this team since no one else can realistically replace it (Engo is physical but not top 4 material imo).

I put that goal on Kunitz by the way. He should know by now that Orpik likes to run around and make hits. He needed to be alert and be ready to cover for him.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

There's always been a mix of good and bad with Orpik. I still think his physicality is necessary on this team since no one else can realistically replace it (Engo is physical but not top 4 material imo).

I put that goal in Kunitz by the way. He should know by now that Orpik likes to run around and make hits. He needed to be alert and be ready to cover for him.

He did cover for him, he just blew his coverage.

As a fwd you always backcheck to the middle when things breakdown. Hartnell was manned up and Kunitz floated to him and left CG wide open going to the post. I have no idea what he was thinking.

That's hockey 101 and Kunitz would be the first one to admit it.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Trade for who? Another Dman? I don't think that's very likely so:

Do you have any idea what our D corps would look like if we got rid of anybody right now? It's one friggin' game. He had problems with his ribs all of last year. Yeah he's been through a lot of wars but we still need him. Sorry but just because some young guys looked pretty good in spot duty doesn't mean I'm ready to get rid of ANOTHER top 4 Dman.

 

[WagonPensFansHater]

Actually if you watch the goal against, you'll see kunitz being out of position chasing the puck, and crosby half a$$ing it up ice on his backchecking on his shift. Keith Jones said as much on the intermission. Can't rush to judgments after one game, orpik looked rusty to me, as did a number of players did, he didn't play during the lockout, it'll take afew weeks for the d to get cohesive, and who is trading FOR orpik, right now????.... No one, let's trade our only physicality from our soft defense already....get idea!!!! Ugh

 

[Tender Rip]

I think this thread is likely about asset management, and looked upon in a certain light, I can kind of understand the sentiment.

Of course if we want to win anything this season, one should just discard this thread as meaningless, on par with wanting to give up Paul Martin for nothing prior to the season starting.

But I suppose the OP wants to insert the best shot blocker in the world of hockey, Scott Harrington (insert maniacal laugh here), straight out of junior, and then see him shut stuff down in the playoffs.... .

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

There's always been a mix of good and bad with Orpik. I still think his physicality is necessary on this team since no one else can realistically replace it (Engo is physical but not top 4 material imo).

I put that goal on Kunitz by the way. He should know by now that Orpik likes to run around and make hits. He needed to be alert and be ready to cover for him.

He did cover for him, it's just when you kick at a cross ice pass you better damn well pick it off and he didn't. Dumb decision. Not Orpik's fault and it was just one play, but let's start a thread about t rading him.

 

[clefty]

Brian Strait on waivers - Boo!
Trade Orpik - Hooray!

Okay.

 

[dr robbie]

Martin plays good for one game - maybe we should keep him and his 1.75 extra million

Orpik plays so/so for one game - maybe we should trade him

I mean, if this was one game ago (yes, last year), this discussion would be completely different. Give him a minute to get into his groove and we could evaluate then.

Personally, I like Orpiks. He's been our solid rock for many a year now. I would love for him to retire out with the Pens, even if that means moving him down on the d list.

 

[Bennett Brauer]

I don't understand. Orpik and Martin had a solid game today, but one or two iffy plays and Orpik needs to go?

He was out of position on Giroux's goal, I agree. But Kunitz didn't really help, and I don't buy that whole not thinking defensively, he's a two way forward, when you're going to your own zone, you should always be prepared to defend. I don't care what position.

And not that I have a problem with this, but isn't Giroux, Crosby's responsibility to defend also? He was nowhere in the picture when that goal was scored.

That power play pass to Simmonds? Come on, you don't trade a player because he allowed the pass, while you can blame it on Orpik, how many defensemen have made that exact play or even played worse? Nobody's perfect. In hockey, players make mistakes.

It truly doesn't make sense to trade a top 4 defenseman in favor of a rookie who has minimal NHL experience.

it's not like Orpik makes bad decisions all game every game, if he did that, then yes you don't keep him, but he's one of our better defensemen.

 

[Karnage420*]

you can really tell which posters know nothing about hockey by how good or bad they think paul martin played today.

to most of us - we think he played great and was possibly the best player on the ice (like he was 2 years ago in the playoffs).

to a smaller, less educated or quite frankly biased group of people he was "bad" because giroux did a cool move to get around him.

Paul Martin is our second best Dman by far. deal with it.


also, re: orpik. no sense in trading him, he'll be declining with the pens until his contract is up. and to be frank - he was never really amazing defensively, just a great physical player with puck handling skills and poise. now hes just less physical and even worse at the mental aspect of defense than he was previously.

 

[Dangles78]

you can really tell which posters know nothing about hockey by how good or bad they think paul martin played today.

to most of us - we think he played great and was possibly the best player on the ice (like he was 2 years ago in the playoffs).

to a smaller, less educated or quite frankly biased group of people he was "bad" because giroux did a cool move to get around him.

Paul Martin is our second best Dman by far. deal with it.


also, re: orpik. no sense in trading him, he'll be declining with the pens until his contract is up. and to be frank - he was never really amazing defensively, just a great physical player with puck handling skills and poise. now hes just less physical and even worse at the mental aspect of defense than he was previously.

Hmmm....yup....

This is the best portion of a post I've read. I don't even need to repeat the bolded part; it is simply accurate.

No idea where this thread is going, but an early guess would be nowhere

 

[IcedCapp]

Brian Strait on waivers - Boo!
Trade Orpik - Hooray!

Okay.

don't you see?!?!? Strait was Oprik's replacement!

 

[BigBenSF*]

Let's give it 10-15 more games and see where we are at. Trading Orpik now would hurt the Pens more then help (unless there is an overpayment) and a Despres-Letang Niskanen-Martin Bortuzzo-Engelland lineup doesn't look great in the playoffs. Hold on to our defensive guys for now, see how they do in the next couple of weeks. In the mean time let's trade that piece of **** Kunitz, my god he was invisible out there!!!1!!1!

Judging players based on one game is dumb. Everyone is rusty, give them at least five games and see how they preform then.

P.S, if anyone needs to be traded ASAP, it's Eric Tangradi.

 

[jmelm]

The Pens held the Flyers to a single goal. One of the highest scoring teams in the league. Granted no Briere but still. The end result was pretty impressive.

If you trade Orpik who we going to put into the top four? This is a team that can legitimately talk about a cup run and not be laughed at. Unless you are bringing a defenseman in who is better, which is beyond doubtful at this point, Orpik needs to stay where he is. There will be a time soon enough, as some of these prospects become ready, to talk about, and likely acting on, moving him. But that day is a year or two away.

It's this kinda talk that gets us ousted in the first round.

hahaha, I love it guys. Great debate, and good argument to be made both ways. I do believe that, in the absence of another trade to bring in a top-4 Dman, we may very well need Brooks THIS season. Or, as Jags said, while he can be scary to opposing forwards with his physical play, he can be scary to the Penguins for his defensive lapses. On balance, it will be interesting to see exactly what type of net impact we get from that duality of his play for this season.


And by the way: you want to talk about "top-4" or "shutdown pair"?? When you watch a team like, say, the Rangers, and you see a kid like McDonough, you see EXACTLY what you want from a top-4 "shutdown" type of defender: reliable, uses his strength and speed intelligently (i.e. in position, as opposed to Brooks who often uses it to be out of position), and more. Brooks just ain't that guy, and he hasn't been for the last few years. This thread I made is not rash & hyper-reactionary to one game. It is a continuation of a trend that has been prevalent in his game for the past few years now. Think about how much value Robin Regehr had a few years ago, and look at the piddly return he eventually netted. That's my concern with Orpik (and goals against).

Actually if you watch the goal against, you'll see kunitz being out of position chasing the puck, and crosby half a$$ing it up ice on his backchecking on his shift. Keith Jones said as much on the intermission. Can't rush to judgments after one game, orpik looked rusty to me, as did a number of players did, he didn't play during the lockout, it'll take afew weeks for the d to get cohesive, and who is trading FOR orpik, right now????.... No one, let's trade our only physicality from our soft defense already....get idea!!!! Ugh

Well you're kind of missing the point, because moving Orpik would be contingent upon bringing in one of Bortuzzo or Dumoulin in his place, both of whom are as big/bigger, even if not quite as physical. But hey: if being 'more' physical means giving up goals against, I'll take the safer, steadier guys. They may or may not be ready right now, however.

I think this thread is likely about asset management, and looked upon in a certain light, I can kind of understand the sentiment.
Of course if we want to win anything this season, one should just discard this thread as meaningless, on par with wanting to give up Paul Martin for nothing prior to the season starting.

But I suppose the OP wants to insert the best shot blocker in the world of hockey, Scott Harrington (insert maniacal laugh here), straight out of junior, and then see him shut stuff down in the playoffs.... .

Bingo, on the first part of your post. It's kind of a composite between trying to maximize the asset, and minimize the downside (both the potential downsides of losing him now vs. sub-par defensive play we have seen from him too often, like tonight)


As for the Harrington comment: I love it But NO: I never advocated even bringing him to camp this year; let him play out the year with London and compete for another Mem cup, and have a great summer of training and continuing to mature. But by next season, he's a legit NHL Dman, IMO. He is way more steady & reliable & safe than Dougie Hamilton, who has cracked another NHL contender's roster. But I'm happy to wait for next season.


Really my argument hinges on either a trade, or more likely the type of impact and NHL readiness Dumoulin and Bortuzzo have. We know that Bort is a legit NHL Dman and can play, but would he be ready to play with Martin in the top-4?


Dumoulin: many expected this player to be, perhaps, even more ready and more likely to play a significant role in the NHL this season over Simon Despres. By all accounts, he has been solid in WBS. But is he ready to play top-4 or top-6 minutes in the NHL? Maybe he is. And if the answer to Dumoulin and/or Bortuzzo is in the affirmative, it just may be worth the (perceived) risk of using them ahead of Brooks right now. We have time to make this decision, but Brooks could be worth a lot at the deadline. His value, because of his play/injury history/contract status, and a declining cap, will be significantly less this summer, however.

also, re: orpik. no sense in trading him, he'll be declining with the pens until his contract is up. and to be frank - he was never really amazing defensively, just a great physical player with puck handling skills and poise. now hes just less physical and even worse at the mental aspect of defense than he was previously.

Orpik may finish this season with us, but I doubt he starts next year with us. If Martin keeps up with his play, or even if he doesn't, Brooks and his salary, and the emergence and (by then) NHL-readiness of Dumoulin and Harrington mean we can do better than Brooks, and for a lot less $$$ (which needs to go to Letang, Geno, Kunitz, Kennedy, Cooke, Dupuis, and perhaps even Perry or Iginla).

 

[MonsterSurge]

It's been one game. Chill out.


To the guy saying Martin was bad today...What game did you watch?

 

[Jaded-Fan]

hahaha, I love it guys. Great debate, and good argument to be made both ways. I do believe that, in the absence of another trade to bring in a top-4 Dman, we may very well need Brooks THIS season. Or, as Jags said, while he can be scary to opposing forwards with his physical play, he can be scary to the Penguins for his defensive lapses. On balance, it will be interesting to see exactly what type of net impact we get from that duality of his play for this season.


And by the way: you want to talk about "top-4" or "shutdown pair"?? When you watch a team like, say, the Rangers, and you see a kid like McDonough, you see EXACTLY what you want from a top-4 "shutdown" type of defender: reliable, uses his strength and speed intelligently (i.e. in position, as opposed to Brooks who often uses it to be out of position), and more. Brooks just ain't that guy, and he hasn't been for the last few years. This thread I made is not rash & hyper-reactionary to one game. It is a continuation of a trend that has been prevalent in his game for the past few years now. Think about how much value Robin Regehr had a few years ago, and look at the piddly return he eventually netted. That's my concern with Orpik (and goals against).


[excised to keep quote short].

So what 'kid like McDonough' are we getting without trading away someone like Neal? If you can get me an Orpik and a pick for McDonough sign me up. That is the thing, when you start trying to assign names . . . . . and costs . . . or aquiring replacements this becomes an excersize in video game hockey and not reality.

The fact is that we crapped the bed in Philly, but were one of the best teams in the league last year and certainly built in a way good enough to win a cup:

* if I am remembering rightly, 3rd most man games lost to injury last year including most of our defense and Crosby for almost the entire year.

*108 points, 4th best in the NHL, and only 1 behind NY and St. Louis, 3 behind Vancouver.

* Most goals in the NHL, by ten points over the next highest

* 2nd Highest Goal differential, +61, and ten points higher than the team below then

* 5th on PP %, 4th in PP goals scored.

* 3rd on PK %, 2nd in PK goals scored against.

* the defense which went way south against philly had dropped from the top five defense it had been the year before, only dropped to middle of the pack at 16th, and had been decimated by injuries all year.

* the offseason losses were minimal, and the core is just entering its prime.

There are no perfect teams in a cap world. And though it was only one game, there is zero reason to believe that what we saw tonight is not indicitave of the kind of team we have this year. If you can upgrade on the cheap, and without mortgaging a future when we have Crosby and likely Malkin tied up for the next decade? Sign me up. It is not realistic to make more than a sideways move on Orpik though unless we are going to lose assets that are really going to hurt.

 

[jmelm]

So what 'kid like McDonough' are we getting without trading away someone like Neal? If you can get me an Orpik and a pick for McDonough sign me up. That is the thing, when you start trying to assign names . . . . . and costs . . . or aquiring replacements this becomes an excersize in video game hockey and not reality.

The fact is that we crapped the bed in Philly, but were one of the best teams in the league last year and certainly built in a way good enough to win a cup. There are no perfect teams in a cap world. And though it was only one game, there is zero reason to believe that what we saw tonight is not indicitave of the kind of team we have this year. If you can upgrade on the cheap, and without mortgaging a future when we have Crosby and likely Malkin tied up for the next decade? Sign me up. It is not realistic to make more than a sideways move on Orpik though unless we are going to lose assets that are really going to hurt.

Your point is fair about not having a perfect team, but we have two potential future McDonough's in our system, and one or both should be ready by next season: Harrington & Dumoulin (guys who can be legit, top-4, big-minuite Dmen), and the latter may be ready to step in now if he can adjust to the pro game at an accellerated pace -- a proposition unrealistic for most junior-age players, but this is a guy who is 23 years old and a two-time Hobey Baker finalist and has a team-winning pedigree.


It ultimately comes down to weighing asset management vs. NHL readiness of the only candidates to replace Brooks: Dumoulin or Bortuzzo in the top-4. If they're not ready, I say keep him, and get whatever we can for him in the off-season. But we might be able to get a really good return for him now; though if we trade him, I'd like to see him go out west, and obviously the return would need to be good.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Your point is fair about not having a perfect team, but we have two potential future McDonough's in our system, and one or both should be ready by next season: Harrington & Dumoulin (guys who can be legit, top-4, big-minuite Dmen), and the latter may be ready to step in now if he can adjust to the pro game at an accellerated pace -- a proposition unrealistic for most junior-age players, but this is a guy who is 23 years old and a two-time Hobey Baker finalist and has a team-winning pedigree.


It ultimately comes down to weighing asset management vs. NHL readiness of the only candidates to replace Brooks: Dumoulin or Bortuzzo in the top-4. If they're not ready, I say keep him, and get whatever we can for him in the off-season. But we might be able to get a really good return for him now; though if we trade him, I'd like to see him go out west, and obviously the return would need to be good.

I am not sure of your point then.

Everyone agrees that we have the best defensive prospects in the game and within a year or two they will step up as cheap replacements for who we have now. Orpik's days are obviously among the numbered. But you were talking right now in the thread. And that is crazy talk for a cup contender. Do you forget Goligoski's first couple years? Even Letang's? They were brutal. You want to toss a cup away, then bring a rookie into the top four. Even a good one.

 

[TyroneShoelaces]

IMO, it's a weird situation with Orpik. We trade him now and don't have anyone to fill in, also taking away from our already weak Top 4. We hold onto him, assuming his play/value continues to decline year in and year out, no one will want to trade for him. I think it's best to hold onto him and as time goes, lighten his load and move him down in the lineup when some of our young guys/prospects(Bortuzzo, Dumoulin, Harrington, Maatta) can step up.