Bourque in 00-01 vs Lidstrom in 10-11

[overpass]

Which season was better?

Both players were 40 years old and had visibly lost a step from their prime years, but both had very good seasons that added to their historical legacies. Bourque won his first and only Stanley Cup, and Lidstrom became the third defenceman to win 7 Norris trophies.

Ray Bourque in 2000-01

• 57 points (24 ES, 33 PP), tied for 3rd among defencemen.
• +25 on a team that was +57
• Average TOI of 26:06.
• First team All-Star.
• Second in Norris voting, well behind Lidstrom and slightly ahead of Scott Stevens and Rob Blake.
• Played a key role in Colorado's playoff run as they won the Stanley Cup.

Nicklas Lidstrom in 2010-11

• 62 points (22 ES, 39 PP), 2nd among defencemen.
• -2 on a team that was +6.
• Average TOI of 23:28.
• First team All-star.
• Won the Norris trophy in a very close vote, ahead of Shea Weber and Zdeno Chara.
• Lost in the second round of the playoffs.

I know there's been a lot of Bourque-Lidstrom discussion already, but I think this particular comparison is interesting.

Click to read more...

 

[seventieslord]

It was an outstanding season by Bourque, and he'd have won the norris if there wasn't a prime lidstrom to compete against... like lidstrom doesn't have now.

By the numbers, bourque appears to have the edge (I like !) But i'd like to hear what others think.

 

[Regal]

I was actually thinking about this after Lidstrom won. They're pretty similar seasons in my opinion, and obviously there wasn't a defenseman this year comparable to 00-01 Lidstrom to run away with the award, so you can't just base it on who won the Norris.

There was a lot of talk about Lidstrom falling off a bit at even strength this year, but both his and Bourque's splits are pretty similar. When considering the team around him, I think Lidstrom was a bit better offensively. I think defenseman points are much more dependent on team than forwards, and while this Detroit team was good, it doesn't match the offensive weapons on that Colorado team. Lidstrom also more than double the number of goals. In the playoffs even, Lidstrom almost matched Bourque's point total in half the games (though Colorado played a more defensive game after they lost Forsberg in the playoffs, and Lidstrom played against a terrible Bryzgalov performance in the first round)

Defensively, there seems to be various opinions of Lidstrom this season, but I think it's hard to say he didn't at least take a step back. The question is how much of one. Watching him, I didn't think he looked particularly dominant and made more errors than usual, though he was still good. His in depth statistical numbers also suggest he wasn't a superior defensive player. I think Bourque was slightly worse than Lidstrom defensively in his prime, but I'm not sure he regressed in his last season as much as Lidstrom has. At the same time, he also had a lot more help than Lidstrom with prime Blake and Foote on the backend with him.

In all I think I like Bourque just a little more, because I think he was a bit better overall at even strength, and he was doing it while playing a decent amount more minutes in the season and a lot more in the playoffs.

 

[Kraden]

It's very close between them. But I discovered something pretty cool about Lidstrom that he has 4 seasons with 60+ points after he turned 35. And he's the only defenseman with a 60+ point season at the age of 40.

35+

Age 40+

 

[BraveCanadian]

I was actually thinking about this after Lidstrom won. They're pretty similar seasons in my opinion, and obviously there wasn't a defenseman this year comparable to 00-01 Lidstrom to run away with the award, so you can't just base it on who won the Norris.

There was a lot of talk about Lidstrom falling off a bit at even strength this year, but both his and Bourque's splits are pretty similar. When considering the team around him, I think Lidstrom was a bit better offensively. I think defenseman points are much more dependent on team than forwards, and while this Detroit team was good, it doesn't match the offensive weapons on that Colorado team. Lidstrom also more than double the number of goals. In the playoffs even, Lidstrom almost matched Bourque's point total in half the games (though Colorado played a more defensive game after they lost Forsberg in the playoffs, and Lidstrom played against a terrible Bryzgalov performance in the first round)

Defensively, there seems to be various opinions of Lidstrom this season, but I think it's hard to say he didn't at least take a step back. The question is how much of one. Watching him, I didn't think he looked particularly dominant and made more errors than usual, though he was still good. His in depth statistical numbers also suggest he wasn't a superior defensive player. I think Bourque was slightly worse than Lidstrom defensively in his prime, but I'm not sure he regressed in his last season as much as Lidstrom has. At the same time, he also had a lot more help than Lidstrom with prime Blake and Foote on the backend with him.

I agree with some of your points.

Both of their seasons were outstanding, especially considering their age. Lidstrom is actually the better part of a year older in this comparison, having turned 40 6 months before the season started whereas Bourque turned 40 in December of the season.

However, in this case one of the usual arguments the Bourque supporters use: "Lidstrom had better help" is reversed.

There is no doubt that 00-01 Colorado team is better than the most recent edition of the Red Wings by a large margin.

It is a cointoss for me.

 

[Roy S]

What were Colorado's defensive pairings that season? All 3 of Rob Blake, Foote and Bourque were pretty similar in ice time in the playoffs, but who got the toughest matchups?

Lidstrom's pairing still got far and away the toughest matchups on the Wings without much help by the secondary pairings, so its tough to compare without that context provided.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Overlooked Consideration

An overlooked consideration is that Ray Bourque was playing his first full season with the Avalanche so he had to undergo a team integration process, learning the individual player skills and traits, team systems and adapting his skills and strengths to the optimum within the structures of the Avalanche.

Nicklas Lidstrom on the other hand during the 2010-11 season had all the benefits of familiarity and continuity with few exceptions, minor roster adjustments.Many of the core Red Wings have been together with Lidstrom for well over five seasons and the mutual support shown as the team gets older makes each individual's performance better.

 

[overpass]

What were Colorado's defensive pairings that season? All 3 of Rob Blake, Foote and Bourque were pretty similar in ice time in the playoffs, but who got the toughest matchups?

Lidstrom's pairing still got far and away the toughest matchups on the Wings without much help by the secondary pairings, so its tough to compare without that context provided.

Definitely a relevant point. Bourque and Foote got the tough matchups in the playoffs. Not sure about the regular season.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Which season was better?

Both players were 40 years old and had visibly lost a step from their prime years, but both had very good seasons that added to their historical legacies. Bourque won his first and only Stanley Cup, and Lidstrom became the third defenceman to win 7 Norris trophies.

Ray Bourque in 2000-01

• 57 points (24 ES, 33 PP), tied for 3rd among defencemen.
• +25 on a team that was +57
• Average TOI of 26:06.
• First team All-Star.
• Second in Norris voting, well behind Lidstrom and slightly ahead of Scott Stevens and Rob Blake.
• Played a key role in Colorado's playoff run as they won the Stanley Cup.

Nicklas Lidstrom in 2010-11

• 62 points (22 ES, 39 PP), 2nd among defencemen.
• -2 on a team that was +6.
• Average TOI of 23:28.
• First team All-star.
• Won the Norris trophy in a very close vote, ahead of Shea Weber and Zdeno Chara.
• Lost in the second round of the playoffs.

I know there's been a lot of Bourque-Lidstrom discussion already, but I think this particular comparison is interesting.

Bourque's goalie was Patrick Roy.

Lidstrom's were Howard/Osgood/Macdonald.

I take Lidstrom.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

IMO both seasons were overrated by the voters. I don't think Lidstrom was the best d-man this season and I don't think Bourque was the 2nd best that season. Their vote standings were rep related IMO.

That said, I think Bourque played a better all round game that season than Lidstrom this season.

 

[Super Fadio Bro]

Which season was better?

Both players were 40 years old and had visibly lost a step from their prime years, but both had very good seasons that added to their historical legacies. Bourque won his first and only Stanley Cup, and Lidstrom became the third defenceman to win 7 Norris trophies.

Ray Bourque in 2000-01

• 57 points (24 ES, 33 PP), tied for 3rd among defencemen.
• +25 on a team that was +57
• Average TOI of 26:06.
• First team All-Star.
• Second in Norris voting, well behind Lidstrom and slightly ahead of Scott Stevens and Rob Blake.
• Played a key role in Colorado's playoff run as they won the Stanley Cup.

Nicklas Lidstrom in 2010-11

• 62 points (22 ES, 39 PP), 2nd among defencemen.
• -2 on a team that was +6.
• Average TOI of 23:28.
• First team All-star.
• Won the Norris trophy in a very close vote, ahead of Shea Weber and Zdeno Chara.
• Lost in the second round of the playoffs.

I know there's been a lot of Bourque-Lidstrom discussion already, but I think this particular comparison is interesting.

The Red Wings were +20, not +6

 

[YGH*]

Did Bourque have good chemistry with Foote? (assuming he played with him in the reg.)

Stuart is a less than adept partner for Lidstrom, I think.

 

[overpass]

The Red Wings were +20, not +6

They were +6 after removing power play goals, as in individual plus-minus.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

An overlooked consideration is that Ray Bourque was playing his first full season with the Avalanche so he had to undergo a team integration process, learning the individual player skills and traits, team systems and adapting his skills and strengths to the optimum within the structures of the Avalanche.

Nicklas Lidstrom on the other hand during the 2010-11 season had all the benefits of familiarity and continuity with few exceptions, minor roster adjustments.Many of the core Red Wings have been together with Lidstrom for well over five seasons and the mutual support shown as the team gets older makes each individual's performance better.

Excellent point.

Also, the fact that Bourque played more minutes than anyone else in the league (counting playoffs) was quite remarkable.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Bourque had a full month of the regular season plus playoffs after being traded at the end of 1999-00 to adjust. By 2000-01, he was much more settled and it showed in his play.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Team Structure

Bourque had a full month of the regular season plus playoffs after being traded at the end of 1999-00 to adjust. By 2000-01, he was much more settled and it showed in his play.

The 1999-00 Avalanche team was put together in training camp without any consideration for Ray Bourque arriving at the trade deadline. When Bourque arrived late in the season the resulting numbers were attractive but you could see the team lacking cohesion at times and searching especially moving the puck in the defensive zone.

The 2000-01 Avalanche team was put together from the start with Ray Bourque as one of the key elements. As the season progressed you could see the levels of familiarity increasing and the team looking sharper .peaking during the playoffs with a Stanley Cup.

 

[DRWCountryClub]

So in every other comparison people bring up that Lidstrom played for "powerhouse, all star" Wings teams(not the case, but ok), yet in this comparison it's basically thrown out the window because it goes against Bourque and works in Lidstrom's favour.

I mean, give me a break, Bourque played with a prime Sakic, Forsberg, Blake, Foote, and Roy. Lidstrom had Datsyuk and Zetterberg, no comparable dmen, and a second year Jimmy Howard in net.

And still put up more points and was only -2. The other two Norris Finalists this year played in front of Vezina Finalists...

But of course, Bourque was so much better in his year, the team had nothing to do with it, yada yada.

If only Lidstrom were Canadian.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I don't think Bourque was the 2nd best that season. Their vote standings were rep related IMO.

I think it had more to do with voters not knowing where to slot Pronger and Leetch on their ballots. Health permitting, Pronger would've had the Norris in the bag with his stat line. Leetch was cursed with still being the best player on a non-playoff team. By the eyesight test, Bourque was probably the 4th best defenseman that year, but circumstances allowed for him to get the nomination.

I still had him above Blake, Stevens, Foote, and Gonchar though.

 

[quoipourquoi]

If only Lidstrom were Canadian.

How would that have helped him? Some Canadians don't even like Bourque because of alleged international apathy. That comment is as asinine as someone else saying "If only Lidstrom played on a less popular franchise."

 

[Gobo]

Lidstrom. Colorado had a far superior team, supporting cast and Lidstrom still managed an equally impressive season.

 

[quoipourquoi]

What were Colorado's defensive pairings that season? All 3 of Rob Blake, Foote and Bourque were pretty similar in ice time in the playoffs, but who got the toughest matchups?

Bourque/Foote
Blake/Klemm
de Vries/Skoula

Bourque and Foote took the tough matchups at even strength and on the penalty kill, while Blake replaced Foote on the powerplay.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

So in every other comparison people bring up that Lidstrom played for "powerhouse, all star" Wings teams(not the case, but ok), yet in this comparison it's basically thrown out the window because it goes against Bourque and works in Lidstrom's favour.

I mean, give me a break, Bourque played with a prime Sakic, Forsberg, Blake, Foote, and Roy. Lidstrom had Datsyuk and Zetterberg, no comparable dmen, and a second year Jimmy Howard in net.

And still put up more points and was only -2. The other two Norris Finalists this year played in front of Vezina Finalists...

But of course, Bourque was so much better in his year, the team had nothing to do with it, yada yada.

If only Lidstrom were Canadian.

Wow, that's saying a lot.

Not to mention that of the regular 6 dmen on the Wings, Lidstrom's -2 was the worst. That must be a first for Norris Trophy winner.

As for the Avs being loaded, they were only 4th in the league that year is scoring, where Detroit was 2nd this year.

If only Bourque weren't French.

 

[Briere Up There*]

I think Lidstrom's -2 is more a result of his hefty PP time and reduced ES minutes. I still believe he was or is Detroit's best defensive defenseman.

Babcock could have been protecting him I suppose, but I think it was more preserving an elderly man and reducing risks. Does anyone have his playoff minutes? That would be helpful.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Wow, that's saying a lot.

Not to mention that of the regular 6 dmen on the Wings, Lidstrom's -2 was the worst. That must be a first for Norris Trophy winner.

As for the Avs being loaded, they were only 4th in the league that year is scoring, where Detroit was 2nd this year.

If only Bourque weren't French.

Rob Blake was -3 in 1998, only 2 better than the defenseman with the lowest plus minus on the team.

Colorado in 2001 was stacked defenseively and in goal compared to Detroit last year.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Rob Blake was -3 in 1998, only 2 better than the defenseman with the lowest plus minus on the team.

Colorado in 2001 was stacked defenseively and in goal compared to Detroit last year.

That's close.

23 goals and big hits probably got him the Norris in another off year (though not as off as this one).