Blues Trade Proposals 2023-2024

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TheOrganist

Don't Call Him Alex
Feb 21, 2006
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Krug blocked trade bc he didn’t want to go to crappy Philly team, didn’t want to play for torts, and his wife was expecting. Situation this summer is different. I expect if we deal him this summer, at least to a us team, he will agree to go.
That trade materialized b/c of our draft capital...I mean let's be honest the stars aligned with that deal and we got f***ed...I don't see a scenario where that realistically happens again w/ Krug.
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
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I honestly didn't know you get such little Cap relief when you waive a player with a one-way contract. I get the real dollar implications for a small-mid market team that has to eat significant money over 3-4 yrs for a veteran scrub buried in the minors but I thought the Cap relief was greater for some reason. He's unmovable. Buyout or nada.
From teh cap website:

What is a Buried Contract?​

Teams do not receive full cap relief when a player on a one-way NHL contract is reassigned to the American Hockey League, or is loaned to a team in another professional league.
The players salary cap hit, minus the sum of the minimum NHL salary for the respective season and $375,000, still counts towards the team’s salary cap total.
The cap hit relief is therefore equal to the minimum salary of the respective season + $375,000:
  • 2024-25: $775,000 + $375,000 = $1,150,000
  • 2025-26: $775,000 + $375,000 = $1,150,000

So actually, I slightly overstated the savings it would be to send him down. He'd count $5.35 million on the cap, $16.05 million across the 3 years.

It's OK, though. I'm sure we can find a free agent for ... [does the actuarials] ... $1.15 million, who performs like a $6M or $6.5M player. Those guys are practically everywhere.
 
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AyeBah

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Apr 5, 2019
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Because that worked wonders for every other player who was ever assigned to the minors because they wouldn't take a trade to wherever.

Oh, wait. It didn't. It only caused players to increasingly demand NMCs to avoid being sent to the minors, to reinforce their contractually-agreed upon, CBA-protected no-trade clause.


I'm sure he has zero pride, no self-esteem, just wants to be loved by someone, will do whatever it takes to get love and affection even if it means rolling over like a beached whale and completely surrendering.

Same for his agent. Probably thankful his guy is in the league in any capacity. They're probably collectively so sorry about his play, if contracts could be renegotiated Krug would take the league minimum and then pay half of it back, and his agent would pay his commission directly to the team.


No, it's not that there's zero chance he'd get waived. I wouldn't be surprised if we waived him. Pointless, likely, wouldn't prove anything just like getting waived in-season around the trade deadline doesn't prove that guy has no value at all when someone later trades for him by moving a contract in return, but ... that's much less risk.

It's zero chance he gets assigned to the AHL and Armstrong still has a job.


Yeah, that totally got Wade Redden to quit on his contract the 2 years he was on the bus.
Thanks for stopping by the board Torey
 

sfvega

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Apr 20, 2015
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Agreed. Army held firm on the NMC vs. NTC, seemingly with top-down approval. For ownership to then lambast him for sticking to negotiating this contractual point and then actually leveraging it when the time comes sounds farfetched.

At the end of the day, I don't think anything this dramatic is going to happen, mainly b/c I think Krug is going to see the writing on the wall that getting bought out is possibly the end of his career, if not at the very least a huge reduction in his potential overall earnings. Krug is currently guaranteed 21M dollars over the next three years of his contract. A buyout reduces that to 14M. This summer he's going to be a 33 year old undersized Dman coming off two disappointing seasons in which he was clearly exposed as an unfit top 4 everyday player. Does he really believe he can make up 7M dollars on the open market over the next 2-4 years of his career, if it even lasts that long?

I think AT BEST he's looking at a Shattenkirk type scenario where he jumps to a contender on a 1 year deal for around 1-2M and has a monster bounceback season with a crazy good playoffs, then convinces some rebuilding team that wants veteran leadership to massively overpay him on a 2-3 year deal. There are two issues with this path:

1. Shattenkirk started down this road when he was 30 and got bought out, Krug will start at 33. That age gap is pretty substantial as Shattenkirk got to cash in on his "Veteran Leadership," (With a Ring) at 31 instead of 34.
2. Shattenkirk got extremely lucky to get a contract with the Lightning, as they had a real need for a RHD to pair with one of their LH monsters in Hedman, Sergachev, or (at the time) McDonagh. I can't think of a team out there with a plethora of RHD that can all carry a pairing the way the Lightning had with LHD in 2020.

In short, the stars aligned for Shattenkirk to get his 3.9M deal with Anahiem in 2021. For Krug, it's much more likely he will have to settle for a bunch of one year, 1-1.5M dollar deals, as no one is going to sign a smaller, mid-30's defenseman who can't play in the top 4 and frankly hasn't shown the ability to drive success on the PP recently either for big money or term, even if he wins a Cup and can provide, "Veteran Leadership." I think if he gets bought out he's looking at anywhere between a 3-5 million dollar difference in his career earnings.

TLDR - The calculus has changed since last off-season and I think Krug is far more willing to accept a trade vs. getting bought out and losing out on some serious career earnings.

Let's be completely honest here. How much of that is thinking he can really move and how much of it is "Man, it'd REALLY help us out if he did a complete 180 in 1 year you guys"?

I don't think there's any kind of real chance of Krug taking a trade. As mentioned by someone else, we don't have those bonus 1sts this year. Arizona is full up on prospects and picks, so there's no built-in place for the league to banish their bad contracts. No one is really hurting for his skill set to make it more viable. And ultimately, the ball is in his court and he's made it pretty clear he wants to be here a lot more than we want him here.

Which is fine, because in any other industry I'd think an employer pulling a bait and switch with an employee is shitty.
 

Celtic Note

Living the dream
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Army could tell Krug he is waiving him, but if he would prefer not to go to the minors Army could look for a trade to a team that wants to play him.

Army could waive Krug and then look for takers. Teams do this.

He doesn’t have to threaten Krug with it. He doesn’t have to be a douche about it.

Do both he and ownership want to go that route right now? Probably not, but I also wouldn’t be surprised.
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
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Army could tell Krug he is waiving him, but if he would prefer not to go to the minors Army could look for a trade to a team that wants to play him.

Army could waive Krug and then look for takers. Teams do this.

He doesn’t have to threaten Krug with it. He doesn’t have to be a douche about it.

Do both he and ownership want to go that route right now? Probably not, but I also wouldn’t be surprised.
What to do with Krug is not an ownership call, unless "can you pay him $8.5 million to ride the bus in Springfield?" gets asked - which, I think is absolutely an ownership call for the reasons I mentioned. What to do with Krug is a Doug Armstrong call. If ownership is involved in Krug going or not going, or where he's going, and is deciding what tactics to use as part of that, ... well, you tell me how likely that is.

I still think at the end of the day you treat this like it's a business but you do it with respect. You can do right for Krug and the organization and move him out, and not be an asshole in the process.
 

Celtic Note

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What to do with Krug is not an ownership call, unless "can you pay him $8.5 million to ride the bus in Springfield?" gets asked - which, I think is absolutely an ownership call for the reasons I mentioned. What to do with Krug is a Doug Armstrong call. If ownership is involved in Krug going or not going, or where he's going, and is deciding what tactics to use as part of that, ... well, you tell me how likely that is.

I still think at the end of the day you treat this like it's a business but you do it with respect. You can do right for Krug and the organization and move him out, and not be an asshole in the process.
And I think Army has shown he is willing to look out for players even if they are not likely any longer key to the vision for the team. He did that with Fabbri and recently Bortuzzo. I do respect that about him.
 

Ted Hoffman

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Tell that to the "yeah, if Krug won't waive his NTC threaten his ass with being bought out or having his lazy ass shipped to Springfield where he can ride the bus for 12 hours and have shitty sandwiches daily, that'll show him, he'll waive that NTC in no time!" crowd.

[Responding to @Blueston and I f***ed up quoting his post]
 

Blueston

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Tell that to the "yeah, if Krug won't waive his NTC threaten his ass with being bought out or having his lazy ass shipped to Springfield where he can ride the bus for 12 hours and have shitty sandwiches daily, that'll show him, he'll waive that NTC in no time!" crowd.

[Responding to @Blueston and I f***ed up quoting his post]
first, that isn't gonna happen. second, there is no indication that blues view krug as so bad they would want to do anything drastic. he isn't even getting sheltered minutes this year, as he has more d zone than o zone starts 5x5. he plays 22 minutes per night. so long as he is clearly one of our top 4 d they ain't gonna just bury him. they would presumably still love to deal him bc we have multiple holes and he is overpaid for what he brings here, but having krug in our lineup still makes us better than just subtracting him would.
 

Majorityof1

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Mar 6, 2014
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Tell that to the "yeah, if Krug won't waive his NTC threaten his ass with being bought out or having his lazy ass shipped to Springfield where he can ride the bus for 12 hours and have shitty sandwiches daily, that'll show him, he'll waive that NTC in no time!" crowd.

[Responding to @Blueston and I f***ed up quoting his post]

You're way overthinking this. Armstrong is not going to fight so hard against No Movement Clauses vs Full No Trade Clauses if he would never use the threat of the AHL. That is literally the only difference between the two clauses but he is willing to give full NTC for the majority of years in a contract, but he will not give a single year of NMC. Why not if he can't or won't use the AHL?

He waived Vrana, so he is not above waiving a 1-way player. Is Tory Krug too special for the same treatment?

Finally, what does Krug's salary have to do with anything. As you pointed out, the cap savings are minimal, so our spending isn't going to go up by waiving Krug. Ownership doesn't make hockey decisions. They'll ask army is it makes hockey sense. He'll say yes. They'll ask him if it will cost them anything. He'll say no, and if it works, it might save you money when he waives his NTC. Then they'll say ok.
 
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Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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1. Want to waive Krug, see if anyone else will take him for free? Sure, fine. Whatever. He probably clears, simply because no one wants to pick up $6.5M on the cap straight-up for a 33-year old defenseman who's getting weaker on offense and already is poor on defense without moving crap cap dollars off their own roster, but if you think you're going to prove something about his worth to the rest of the league by doing that, ... OK. Good luck with that.

2. There is no way Krug is going to Springfield. Like, "I will bet my existence on HF vs. anyone else's existence on HF" kind of none. If I'm Krug's agent and Armstrong makes that threat, I ultimate-dog-dare Armstrong to do it. The moment Armstrong goes to ownership and says "I want you guys to agree to pay Krug $8.5 million this season to go play in Springfield" and when asked why, responds with "because he wouldn't waive his NTC for me" is the moment I think someone in ownership says "no, no f***ing way I'm paying a guy $8.5 million to go play in the minors" and Armstrong is either fired on the spot or told "do it and you're fired." There is an infinitely better chance ownership agrees to a buyout.

3. I would never fault a player for exercising his NTC to block a trade, no matter how aggressively he exercises it. If you didn't want him to exercise it, you shouldn't have given it to him in the first place. To hold that against a player, especially when you're the guy who handed him the NTC in the first place, is a great way to get other players to demand a NMC instead or to get some players and agents - including ones you want to deal with, including guys in the system right now - to steer clear knowing when you say "I'll give you a NTC" you're going to be petty about it when it doesn't suit you.

4. If you want to buy Krug out, just do it. Don't make threats about "either waive your NTC and take whatever trade I find, or I'm buying you out" - something that's going to get remembered for the reasons noted in #3. Just say "look, we're moving on, good luck elsewhere" and send the paperwork and take the cap hit.

In this whole "dealing with Krug" thing: have some class. Don't act like a shitty 12-year old boy who asked Jenny Jones in 6th grade out and she told you no, and now you're pissed off at the world about it.
A buyout would cost Krug $7M in actual dollars. No one is giving him $7M on a 1 year deal this summer and I'm not 100% convinced that he would get $7M on a 2 year deal unless he is willing to go to a destination that he clearly doesn't want to go to. I think he has a good chance of losing real money (in addition to delaying the payment of a lot of money) if he is bought out. As a player, I would be absolutely livid if my GM bought me out without giving me an opportunity to provide a list of realistic trade destinations to keep my guaranteed money. An empty threat of a buyout is a crappy move by a GM, but if you actually intend to buy a guy out if he isn't moved by X date, telling him that as a way to foster a better outcome for the player is the mature and classy thing to do.

"I'm going just going to say nothing and then cost you money instead of having a conversation about a mutual beneficial solution" isn't remotely close to a 12 year old tantrum.

I have no ill will toward Krug exercising the clause he negotiated. I have said that around here repeatedly. But that is a 2 way street. When you get a NTC instead of a NMC from a GM who has made it publicly clear that he places a high value on the difference between the two clauses, you can't acted shocked and offended when the GM actually exercises the difference between the two clauses.

While it is not a requirement, I think a GM has a moral obligation to try and find a solution with the player before going nuclear. I think any good GM should attempt to work with a player to get them to a good situation before getting to the point of waivers or a buyout. That's how you earn a quality reputation with players, not by just ghosting the player and then buying them out.
 
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Shwabeal

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Feb 24, 2016
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@Brian39 what are the cap ramifications of a buyout of Krug this summer with 3 years remaining.
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Brian39

Registered User
Apr 24, 2014
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@Brian39 what are the cap ramifications of a buyout of Krug this summer with 3 years remaining.
Noticeably worse than trading him with retention, as posted by @Shwabeal

Having an adult conversation with Krug and his professionally licensed representation in order to try and facilitate a deal to a place he would accept is a massively better option than a buyout that stretches a $2.33M cap commitment to 2030.
 
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Celtic Note

Living the dream
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With such a large sum owed this coming year, I would expect a buyout would only really happen after this coming year. At which point if Krug was playing that bad and still not moved, I would assume he would have been waived by then. And if he were waived, he would be much more open to expanding his willing destinations list.
 

TurgPavs

Registered User
Jan 7, 2019
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Count me as a guy who sees just as big of an issue with the Faulk contract, as the Blues have with Krug.

I think the Team can ride out one of those contracts but not both.

The guy who I would love to sign in UFA this summer, DEPENDING ON THE CONTRACT, is Pesce. Not sure Carolina is going to have the cap space for him.
This is what makes the off-season this summer interesting. The Blues really dont have guys ready to make a jump on D. Do you try to move out what is not working, i.e. Faulk/Krug, and replace those guys with some guys on 2-3 year deals? Do you trade for a guy like Chycrun?

It will be interesting to see where Army goes with this.

Besides the UFA's i.e. Peru, Scandy, Blais, Kappy, Vrana, I would expect there is 3-5 guys on the current roster who maybe gone before UFA starts, i.e. Kyrou, Saad, Hayes, Buch, Krug, Leddy, Faulk....
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
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A buyout would cost Krug $7M in actual dollars. No one is giving him $7M on a 1 year deal this summer and I'm not 100% convinced that he would get $7M on a 2 year deal unless he is willing to go to a destination that he clearly doesn't want to go to. I think he has a good chance of losing real money (in addition to delaying the payment of a lot of money) if he is bought out. As a player, I would be absolutely livid if my GM bought me out without giving me an opportunity to provide a list of realistic trade destinations to keep my guaranteed money. An empty threat of a buyout is a crappy move by a GM, but if you actually intend to buy a guy out if he isn't moved by X date, telling him that as a way to foster a better outcome for the player is the mature and classy thing to do.
Hopefully, you realize there is a quantum difference between a GM going to a player and saying "look, I'm thinking about buying you out but I'm willing to try and help out as much as I can, let me know where you're be willing to waive your NTC to go to and I'll see what I can do" and exhausting those options and maybe having another discussion before moving to a buyout, and "waive your goddamn NTC for wherever the hell I want to send you, or I'm buying your ass out."

I'm OK with the first approach. You and others were [maybe still are] advocating the 2nd approach.


"I'm going just going to say nothing and then cost you money instead of having a conversation about a mutual beneficial solution" isn't remotely close to a 12 year old tantrum.
"Do what I say or I'm going to punish you for exercising the contractual rights I agreed to give you" is a 12-year old tantrum.

I do love the concern for Krug's future financial well-being, though. Touching, almost had a tear going down my cheek ... and then you pivoted to "this is a business, folks" with:

I have no ill will toward Krug exercising the clause he negotiated. I have said that around here repeatedly. But that is a 2 way street. When you get a NTC instead of a NMC from a GM who has made it publicly clear that he places a high value on the difference between the two clauses, you can't acted shocked and offended when the GM actually exercises the difference between the two clauses.
Again, for the 27th time: there is a massive difference between a GM making moves that aren't prohibited by a player's contractual rights and a GM telling a player to give up contractual rights or the resulting actions will be intentional and punitive.

While it is not a requirement, I think a GM has a moral obligation to try and find a solution with the player before going nuclear. I think any good GM should attempt to work with a player to get them to a good situation before getting to the point of waivers or a buyout. That's how you earn a quality reputation with players, not by just ghosting the player and then buying them out.
So ... why did you advocate for Armstrong going nuclear? Let me remind you of your exact statement:

I want Army aggressively trying to move Krug, which would include a conversation with his agent about waivers, actually assigning him to the AHL if he clears, and potentially even threatening a buyout if he intends to exercise his NTC aggressively. We have Krug in large part because of the difference between a NTC and NMC. I want this summer to be the time when Army exercises the contractual freedom that he deemed so important.
That is going nuclear, unless you want to come up with some tortured explanation as to how "if Krug exercises his NTC, punish his ass in any of these ways for it" isn't going nuclear.

If you want to say "look, I've rethought this, I was wrong, let me restate" fine. I'm totally fine with that. But please do not trying some hair-splitting gobbledygook, "well ackshualye assigning him to the AHL if he won't waive his NTC isn't being punitive, it's just business and it's within Armstrong's rights to do so - and really, he's still getting all his money so if that happens he should be thankful we're still giving him all that money." Please don't do that when it's readily apparent the only reason to do that is to punish Krug for using his NTC and not because he's so f***ing inept, he should be there. Really don't do that and pretend it's better for everyone - including Krug - than buying him out because we're "doing Krug a favor" by paying him all the money he'd still have on his contract [which comes out of the pockets of the owners] than making him suffer through a buyout and never making it up later on.
 

bleedblue1223

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Jan 21, 2011
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Brett Pesce gives me Jay McKee vibes. He’s more talented, sure…but I’m still not sure I want to be the team on the winning side of that UFA contract.
I'd be worried he'd age like Vlasic. It's not like Krug where once they go down, you can at least say he can still run the PP. Once defensive guys can't handle the big defensive minutes, it can get rough.

I'd be fine overpaying per year to get a short term deal, but I don't want to give a 6-8 year deal and end up with another Krug/Faulk/Parayko situation, especially if we don't remove one of those guys from the roster.
 

Stealth JD

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Hopefully, you realize there is a quantum difference between a GM going to a player and saying "look, I'm thinking about buying you out but I'm willing to try and help out as much as I can, let me know where you're be willing to waive your NTC to go to and I'll see what I can do" and exhausting those options and maybe having another discussion before moving to a buyout, and "waive your goddamn NTC for wherever the hell I want to send you, or I'm buying your ass out."

I'm OK with the first approach. You and others were [maybe still are] advocating the 2nd approach.
I don’t know anyone who suggested, "waive your goddamn NTC for wherever the hell I want to send you, or I'm buying your ass out."

My approach was to go to him and say, “the club has decided to move on. We thank you for your contributions, but we need to try something different. You’re not in those plans.

We will attempt to find a trade-partner to pick up your contract, but if that’s not possible we will be assigning you to Springfield”.

I guarantee he won’t be so picky with his destination at that point. I’m sure Wade Redden would’ve welcomed a trade to Buffalo or Anaheim as opposed to the AHL. He lasted in the minors until the Blues came calling because he wasn’t worth the contract, and ultimately proved that he was in fact washed up.
 

bleedblue1223

Registered User
Jan 21, 2011
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I don’t know anyone who suggested, "waive your goddamn NTC for wherever the hell I want to send you, or I'm buying your ass out."

My approach was to go to him and say, “the club has decided to move on. We thank you for your contributions, but we need to try something different. You’re not in those plans.

We will attempt to find a trade-partner to pick up your contract, but if that’s not possible we will be assigning you to Springfield”.

I guarantee he won’t be so picky with his destination at that point. I’m sure Wade Redden would’ve welcomed a trade to Buffalo or Anaheim as opposed to the AHL. He lasted in the minors until the Blues came calling because he wasn’t worth the contract, and ultimately proved that he was in fact washed up.
Right, basically what Tampa did with McDonagh.
 
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Celtic Note

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Pesce and Skjei seem like we are asking for the same problems we are or will have with Krug, Schenn and Faulk (probably even Parayko at some point). If we only had one or maybe two guys with those types of contracts, that would be one thing. Having three and likely four is just too much. I am forgetting how long Leddy and Saad contracts, so maybe their are included to lesser degrees too.
 
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