Then why was no one else close to Thornton in assists? Last I checked, 25 assist lead is a lot bigger than 0.
It's mighty impressive because he got traded in that season. Played under two different systems and still managed to get a 25 assist lead.
Better GOALscoring season: Ovie 07-08 vs Matthews 23-24
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Then why was no one else close to Thornton in assists? Last I checked, 25 assist lead is a lot bigger than 0.
It's mighty impressive because he got traded in that season. Played under two different systems and still managed to get a 25 assist lead.
Except you don't do that based on one season (where his goal scoring was propped up by McDavid in a similar fashion to Thornton and Cheechoo in 2005-06)
If you take their 3 best peak seasons I'm pretty sure Matthews has the slight edge over Ovechkin anyway in adjusted stats and dominance over their peers (on a per game basis)
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From the looks of it, it seems there wasn't anybody as good as Joe Thornton that year at getting apples. Not sure what this argument has to do with league scoring. A rookie Crosby had 63 and then 84 the next year.
It really as impressive. Earned him the Hart that year. Still don't know how that is an argument centered around league scoring.
It is, did you pass grade 4 reading? Im still waiting for you to quote my posts about this "PP time adjustment", as well as everything else I was allegedly defending Matthews for. Seems like you have no proof. Yet you accuse me, A Montrealer no less, of being a Matthews fanboy. You ok up there? Overall Im a bigger Ovi fan believe it or not.
As for the defense argument, I cant help you there. When you have a better comprehension of how the game of hockey is played you can come back instead of running your mouth like a teenage boy.... Just another HF kid who has an agenda, making biased statements and false accusations against other posters. Gen Z at its best.
You know it is actually possible to give sound arguments for BOTH sides, and have intelligent discussions here. You should try it.
If Matthews scored on 1/3 of the posts he hit this season he could've had 76 goals even without it. Even still, their totals were adjusted for PP time, ES time and shorthanded time separately (which is the best form of adjusted stats available) and Matthews has the edge anyway. This is far better than the general league wide adjustment and also doesn't even take into account that a big reason for how much scoring has risen is the rise in empty net points which Matthews hardly scores on compared to the rest of the top scorers. This is all while being an elite two-way center instead of an entirely one way offensive winger who had the offense run through him 24/7.
This is funny though because the same posters that agree adjustments should be made for league wide scoring (and they should) and also agree that the hockeyreference adjusted stats are not very good don't want to use better adjustment methods that take into account their deployment at ES, PP, and SH when it comes to Matthews vs. Ovechkin, possibly because it might slightly tip the scales in favour of the player they don't like as much?
Yes I passed the 4th grade. No i don't believe you.
I have a pretty good comprehension, as displayed by my write up around the topic that was pretty detailed in where I poke holes at that silly argument and show how it doesn't hold water. I will assume by your lack of response and wanting to blame your poor ability to express your point on Gen Z. Go yell at clouds.
Hi kettle.
Dingo
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I have no problem with someone comparing ES, PP, and SH times. As I mentioned to the last poster, it is information, and up to reader whether its truly relevant or not.
The GPG avg comparison encompasses the league wide scoring over a full season, ie. a VERY large sample size of goals scored..... Its not the same calculation as taking the difference in minutes for ES PP SH time between 2 players.
Theres a reason why acutal hockey statisticians refer to GPG avg when comparing stats from eras, and dont get into all these specific minutes played/game.
That all said, sure it does give AM a bit more weight in this debate. I can readily admit that. You should try convincing this MacBarbie poster.
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I can actually show you where I defend both side throughout this thread. Cant say the same about you. Looks like you were the fanboy all along. Funny.
Still waiting for all those "I love Matthews" posts that I never said. Its so hard to admit when youre wrong, huh?
I find it absolutely crazy how you posters come in here just picking a side. Really says a lot about you as a true hockey fan.
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Dirty Dan
Saturday Night Lupul
Ovechkin was a completely different class than the rest back then, and that was his peak season.
Not sure why you keep derailing the conversation. When you want to defend your ridiculous 'Matthews would have more goals if he focused more on offense' take, let me know. I pointed out how he wouldn't, and went into depth with supporting points on physical factors, style of play, and powerplay minutes.
genk
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Pretty clearly Matthews.
Only 3 less expected goals, but OV had 1 more ENG (worthless stat), 196 more TOI (equivalent of an extra 3.3 games), and *151.4 more PP TOI* (equivalent of 2.5 GAMES WORTH of extra man advantage time).
The Capitals had 108 more power plays than the Leafs this season. This is because the league generally preferred more power play opportunities in 2007-2008 than they do now. The LOWEST number of PPs per game in 2007-2008 belonged to the Sens at 4 per game. The HIGHEST number of PPs per game this season also coincidentally belongs to the Sens at 3.45 (the lowest is the Leafs at 2.9).
Expected goals don’t account for league tendencies to call penalties. Matthews very clearly and objectively had the better goal scoring season, even without accounting for the position played (C vs. W) or defensive responsibilities.
Only 3 less expected goals, but OV had 1 more ENG (worthless stat), 196 more TOI (equivalent of an extra 3.3 games), and *151.4 more PP TOI* (equivalent of 2.5 GAMES WORTH of extra man advantage time).
The Capitals had 108 more power plays than the Leafs this season. This is because the league generally preferred more power play opportunities in 2007-2008 than they do now. The LOWEST number of PPs per game in 2007-2008 belonged to the Sens at 4 per game. The HIGHEST number of PPs per game this season also coincidentally belongs to the Sens at 3.45 (the lowest is the Leafs at 2.9).
Expected goals don’t account for league tendencies to call penalties. Matthews very clearly and objectively had the better goal scoring season, even without accounting for the position played (C vs. W) or defensive responsibilities.
In goal scoring or in general?. Because in general if you take 3years peak Ovi is second only to McDavid in last 20 years.
Any logical person who understands how the game of hockey is played knows that playing more defensively takes away from your offense to a certain degree. Its really not hard to understand (but apparently it is for some)..... Only fanboys like yourself turn a blind eye to this factor since it doesnt help their argument for their beloved player in this debate.
Your arguments for Ovi are fine, Im not even saying youre wrong about those points. But it sure as hell isnt the deciding factor here. There are arguments for both sides whether you can actually admit to them or not.
THe fact that you CANT just tells me what kind of poster you are. Truly as biased as they come.
Still waiting for my Matthews posts..... yeah, didnt think so. Try reading who says what next time before running your mouth.
Except Matthews has better defensive stats revolved around out scoring opponents at even strength, takeaways, blocks, etc. He doesn’t have large amounts of penalty kill time, defensive zone starts, and being placed in a shutdown role like the names you wanted to compare him to unfortunately.
I haven’t made any arguments for OV. Just silly tongue in cheek comments about his physicality to highlight how silly your former argument is, but I guess you didn’t pick up on that. Oh well.
I don’t even know what you’re saying here. I just wish you would back up your ridiculous comment that i originally called you out on that you never defended besides with tropes of ‘you should just know’ and ‘if you don’t know, you don’t know hockey’
Lol there is no convincing him, and to be clear this was not directed at you.
Most people on this board have agreed that those adjusted stats are not the best though, adjusting for the average in each game state while also adjusting for ice time makes more sense as many players are not deployed equally, and in the case of Matthews vs. Ovechkin the discrepancy in their ES and PP time is massive. One thing I will say though is that Ovechkin was a dominant ES scorer that season more so than on the powerplay anyway, so that also may cause some to ignore this... but even still, give Matthews 2nd in the league powerplay time and in all likelihood he scores about 5 more goals.
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So Matthews's coaches are just stupid then? Or tanking?
All they had to do was give him more minutes and the Leafs score more and win more games? But they decided not to...for no apparent reason?
you come here and accuse me of constantly defending Matthews throughout this thread, specifically saying Im adjusting goals based on PP times etc.... yet that wasnt even ME! So right off the bat, its clear you have reading comprehension problems. And if you made a simple mistake in quoting the wrong person, thats fine, but clearly have too big an EGO to admit it. Again, Gen Z at its best.
Theres nothing to "back up" in saying Matthews plays more defense than Ovi in his overall game. Its called watching them play with your eyes. You should try it. eg. Barkov plays more defense than say Kyle Connor. Its a known fact, we dont need to see stats.
Still yelling at Gen Z and clouds?
You need to tell me how Matthews is going to score more goals than he otherwise would by 'focusing less on defense and more on offense' because I don't think him deciding not to block a shot or go for a takeaway is affecting his ability to score more goals. In fact his takeaway stats going down probably leads to slightly less goals.
Fair point. Ovechkin had 55 drawn penalties to 18 for Matthews. Of course, penalties were more prevalent in 07-08, with Washington having 346 and Toronto having 238, so the difference isn’t quite as large as that, but without Ovechkin’s extra 37 penalties drawn, Washington would have been second last in PPOs. He would still have an advantage in PP time, but it would be smaller.
It’s also should be noted that, despite Ovechkin’s PP time, the team was only middle of the pack for PPOs. So while the Caps had more PPs relative to the league, it wasn’t a huge advantage, and a lot of Ovechkin’s extra PP time was just due to playing longer per PP. He averaged an extra 10 seconds per PPO (1:21 to 1:11). That would have added up to an extra 38:30 for Matthews, which would have put him up to 9th in the league in PP minutes. So are those 10 seconds a PP really a huge advantage? Obviously that’s an average so some PPs would be longer and some shorter. But considering a minor penalty ends after a goal is scored, if you take longer to score on average it would lead it more minutes but not more potential for goals. It’s one of the reasons adjusting for PP time can be problematic
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Rude Dog
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Well Matthews played just over 14 minutes total recently in one of the remaining games of the season in his chase for 70... So maybe? Lol
But realistically this is a situation Ovechkin has benefitted from his entire career even to this day, he's the only one who plays 5+ minutes on the powerplay just about every year, and the only season he played under 4 minutes there (but still more than Matthews has ever played in his career) he scored 33 goals. There's also the fact that the Leafs are in the bottom 10 in powerplay opportunities every single season of Matthews' career.
As noted above though, Washington was 17th in PPOs in 07-08 and were only middle of the pack due to Ovechkin’s ability to draw penalties being so good. He was 13th in the league in penalties drawn, whereas Matthews was 143rd.
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