Better GOALscoring season: Ovie 07-08 vs Matthews 23-24

[amnesiac]

So Im pretty certain this topic will be littered with a bunch of "Leaf haters vs Leaf fan" type replies. Lets just try to be objective, please, HF.

I think its very close, personally.

Ovie has the edge in terms of the "adjusted goals", where in 07-08 the GPG avg was 5.56 vs 23-24 was/is 6.22

65G x 6.22/5.56 = 72.7 adjusted goals for Ovie

On the other hand, you have Matthews who clearly played a better defensive game all year round compared to Ovie. So you can argue AM had less chances in that regard.

Matthews also had significantly less shots, if that has any significance, 339 SOG for AM vs 446 for OV.

EV : PPG goals: AM 51:18, OV 43:22, advantage AM.

Comparing linemates.... you can say each had an elite playmaker in Backstrom (though a rookie!) and Marner. PP lines WSH had (I think) Semin and Green, TOR had Rielly and Nylander. Advantage AM there, imo.

Overall, I say Matthews, mainly due to his defensive awareness that definitely took away some more goals, theoretically. THat said, the poll does ask who had the better GOAL scoring season, so you could argue that AM's defense is a moot point.


What say you?

Click to read more...

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Ovechkin's defense was tilting the ice whenever he had a shift.

Matthews had less chances because he wasn't shooting as much as Ovechkin.

Ovechkin has/had that dog in him that Matthews doesn't.

 

[authentic]

So Im pretty certain this topic will be littered with a bunch of "Leaf haters vs Leaf fan" type replies. Lets just try to be objective, please, HF.

I think its very close, personally.

Ovie has the edge in terms of the "adjusted goals", where in 07-08 the GPG avg was 5.56 vs 23-24 was/is 6.22

65G x 6.22/5.56 = 72.7 adjusted goals for Ovie

On the other hand, you have Matthews who clearly played a better defensive game all year round compared to Ovie. So you can argue AM had less chances in that regard.

Matthews also had significantly less shots, if that has any significance, 339 SOG for AM vs 446 for OV.

EV : PPG goals: AM 51:18, OV 43:22, advantage AM.

Comparing linemates.... you can say each had an elite playmaker in Backstrom and Marner. Both had great a offensive Dman as well in Carlson and Rielly. I think thats a bit of a wash.

Overall, I say Matthews, mainly due to his defensive awareness that definitely took away some more goals, theoretically. THat said, the poll does ask who had the better GOAL scoring season, so you could argue that AM's defense is a moot point.


What say you?

Ovechkin also played 5:43 (2nd) on the powerplay and Matthews 3:37 (44th) and that’s what makes me lean slightly towards Matthews here along with his defensive game.

Ovechkin's defense was tilting the ice whenever he had a shift.

Matthews had less chances because he wasn't shooting as much as Ovechkin.

Ovechkin has/had that dog in him that Matthews doesn't.

Comes down to entirely different play styles, not a lack of ‘dog’ in Matthews

 

[authentic]

Also Matthews just led the league in posts hit (NHL record) with 20, a little more luck and he could’ve actually scored around 80 goals

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

Ovi easily. Matthews had a great year but Ovi's '07-08 season is one of the best seasons by any individual player at any position of all time. Dude was so outrageously dominant that year it's not even funny.

 

[authentic]

Ovi easily. Matthews had a great year but Ovi's '07-08 season is one of the best seasons by any individual player at any position of all time. Dude was so outrageously dominant that year it's not even funny.

This is about goal scoring only, how would you figure it’s Ovechkin easily?

So both are about equally as dominant but one does it while abandoning all defensive aspects of the game (which to be fair he was able to do and still be dominant overall) and the other plays an elite two-way game with a little over half the powerplay time and he’s somehow had the clearly worse goal scoring season?

 

[Regal]

Ovechkin’s totals are a little better relative to the league, but Matthews was more efficient in terms of minutes so it depends a bit on what you value.

I don’t buy the idea that Matthews sacrificed goals for defense. He’s a good defensive player but it’s mainly due to his ability to break up plays and win puck battles then go the other way. It’s not like he’s shadowing players in a defensive role and playing it safe offensively. It adds to his overall value but doesn’t take away from his offense.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Didn't we just have this poll? It was closed after Ovechkin led with over 80% of the votes.

Oh, okay. This is asking who was better at just goal scoring. The other was asking which season was better in general. I went with Ovechkin in that poll.

In terms of pure goal scoring Matthews has a better argument than he has if you ask which season was plain better in my opinion. Won't vote yet, however.

 

[ESH]

So Im pretty certain this topic will be littered with a bunch of "Leaf haters vs Leaf fan" type replies. Lets just try to be objective, please, HF.

I think its very close, personally.

Ovie has the edge in terms of the "adjusted goals", where in 07-08 the GPG avg was 5.56 vs 23-24 was/is 6.22

65G x 6.22/5.56 = 72.7 adjusted goals for Ovie

On the other hand, you have Matthews who clearly played a better defensive game all year round compared to Ovie. So you can argue AM had less chances in that regard.

Matthews also had significantly less shots, if that has any significance, 339 SOG for AM vs 446 for OV.

EV : PPG goals: AM 51:18, OV 43:22, advantage AM.

Comparing linemates.... you can say each had an elite playmaker in Backstrom and Marner. Both had great a offensive Dman as well in Carlson and Rielly. I think thats a bit of a wash.

Overall, I say Matthews, mainly due to his defensive awareness that definitely took away some more goals, theoretically. THat said, the poll does ask who had the better GOAL scoring season, so you could argue that AM's defense is a moot point.


What say you?

Carlson wasn’t even drafted at that point and Backstrom was a rookie

 

[amnesiac]

Carlson wasn’t even drafted at that point and Backstrom was a rookie

I stand corrected, Mike Green was the 1D of course... and Backstrom was still no slouch amassing 55 assists, but yeah, Marner is the superior linemate.

Didn't we just have this poll? It was closed after Ovechkin led with over 80% of the votes.

Oh, okay. This is asking who was better at just goal scoring. The other was asking which season was better in general. I went with Ovechkin in that poll.

In terms of pure goal scoring Matthews has a better argument than he has if you ask which season was plain better in my opinion. Won't vote yet, however.

I figured it was done, but didnt find it in the recent pages.

But yeah, goalscoring alone is an interesting question. Hard to compare eras as we know, but I wouldve liked to have included Brett Hull, Mario, and Bure's peak seasons..... I think Hull wouldve won.

 

[authentic]

I stand corrected, Mike Green was the 1D of course... and Backstrom was still no slouch amassing 55 assists, but yeah, Marner is the superior linemate.


I figured it was done, but didnt find it in the recent pages.

But yeah, goalscoring alone is an interesting question. Hard to compare eras as we know, but I wouldve liked to have included Brett Hull, Mario, and Bure's peak seasons..... I think Hull wouldve won.

Matthews had about a goal a game without Marner this season.

 

[amnesiac]

Also Matthews just led the league in posts hit (NHL record) with 20, a little more luck and he could’ve actually scored around 80 goals

as they say "Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades”

Though Im curious how many Ovi had in 07-08.

If thats an argument, then we can also get into how many times each player were "robbed" by a goalie, who faced a weaker class of goalies, etc etc

 

[authentic]

as they say "Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades”

Though Im curious how many Ovi had in 07-08.

If thats an argument, then we can also get into how many times each player were "robbed" by a goalie, who faced a weaker class of goalies, etc etc

I mean Matthews did score more actual goals too, and was almost as dominant with far less opportunities. Not surprised to see Ovechkin runaway with this though

 

[Steven Toast]

So Im pretty certain this topic will be littered with a bunch of "Leaf haters vs Leaf fan" type replies. Lets just try to be objective, please, HF.

When trying to have an "objective" discussion, probably best not to preemptively accuse everyone of bias.

Its close, I lean Matthews though I accidentally voted Ovi and can't change it.

 

[norrisnick]

Ovechkin had 220 hits that season. Not winning a Selke any time soon, but he made himself known when his team didn't have the puck.

EDIT - if we're going to list a bunch of things that don't actively deal with GOALscoring seasons.

 

[Sky04]

Ovy easily, are we just discounting the rest of the game because it doesn't favor Matthews? Ovy was the best forward in the league that year bar none, Matthews isn't even top3.

 

[amnesiac]

Ovy easily, are we just discounting the rest of the game because it doesn't favor Matthews? Ovy was the best forward in the league that year bar none, Matthews isn't even top3.

but... thats not the question. You can be better goalscorer than someone in a given season, and also not be the better player overall.

Ovechkin had 220 hits that season. Not winning a Selke any time soon, but he made himself known when his team didn't have the puck.

EDIT - if we're going to list a bunch of things that don't actively deal with GOALscoring seasons.

no doubt, Ovie wasnt strictly one-dimensional.... but being a better defensive forward does take away from time spent in the offensive zone, and hence you get less chances to score over a full season. Not saying Ovie was a blatant cherry picker, but he did have that advantage as an offensive winger, not having to backcheck as much.

 

[norrisnick]

no doubt, Ovie wasnt strictly one-dimensional.... but being a better defensive forward does take away from time spent in the offensive zone, and hence you get less chances to score over a full season. Not saying Ovie was a blatant cherry picker, but he did have that advantage as an offensive winger, not having to backcheck as much.

That's not how that works. The better you are defensively the less time you end up spending in your own end because you cause a change in possession and transition to offense. If all you do is chase, you waste a lot of shifts on the wrong end of the ice.

 

[Zuluss]

2007-08:
#1 (Ovechkin) - 65, #2 (Kovalchuk) - 52, #10 (Lecavalier) - 40, #20 (Sundin) - 32

2023-24
#1 (Matthews) - 69, #2 (Reinhart) - 57, #10 (Kucherov) - 44, #20 (Tkachuk Jr) - 37

Percentage leads, Ovechkin vs. Matthews
Over #2 25% vs. 21%
Over #10 62.5% vs. 57%
Over #20 103% vs. 86.5%

Clear edge Ovechkin no matter how you cut it.

Also, beating peak Kovalchuk by 13 goals is different from beating Sam Reinhart by 12.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

I think more shots for Ovy is an advantage to Ovy not AM.

This is a good thread—initially the reader is like, duh, Ovy, but after looking at the numbers its a lot closer. Still Ovy.

 

[Regal]

2007-08:
#1 (Ovechkin) - 65, #2 (Kovalchuk) - 52, #10 (Lecavalier) - 40, #20 (Sundin) - 32

2023-24
#1 (Matthews) - 69, #2 (Reinhart) - 57, #10 (Kucherov) - 44, #20 (Tkachuk Jr) - 37

Percentage leads, Ovechkin vs. Matthews
Over #2 25% vs. 21%
Over #10 62.5% vs. 57%
Over #20 103% vs. 86.5%

Clear edge Ovechkin no matter how you cut it.

Also, beating peak Kovalchuk by 13 goals is different from beating Sam Reinhart by 12.

At the same time, Matthews was a significantly more efficient PP scorer but received much lower PP ice time even relative to the league. Of course PP efficiency is up and it’s difficult to assume rate statistics hold, but the difference is large enough where I think there’s an argument for it being better if we consider that context.

Also, I don’t think using name value is a very good argument. Reinhart obviously had a massive outlier year. By the same token you could say he outscored a prime Pastrnak by 22 goals.

 

[Zuluss]

At the same time, Matthews was a significantly more efficient PP scorer but received much lower PP ice time even relative to the league. Of course PP efficiency is up and it’s difficult to assume rate statistics hold, but the difference is large enough where I think there’s an argument for it being better if we consider that context.

Ovechkin was always used very heavily on PP, to the point where his efficiency was not too good (though better than that of any Caps player who could have replaced him). He had enough stamina to afford this use and delivered a lot of PP goals in return.

Also, I don’t think using name value is a very good argument. Reinhart obviously had a massive outlier year. By the same token you could say he outscored a prime Pastrnak by 22 goals.

2007-08 was in fact the best Kovalchuk's season goal-scoring-wise (he had the same 52 goals in 2005-06 as well, but scoring was much higher then). So Ovechkin gets full credit for outscoring Kovalchuk in 2007-08, it is not like outscoring Pasta this season when Pasta was not close to his peak form.

 

[Midnight Judges]

On the other hand, you have Matthews who clearly played a better defensive game all year round compared to Ovie.

I think you are making an assumption here.

Ovechkin was on the ice for 66 non-power play goals against in '07-08.

Matthews was on the ice for 75 despite playing for a superior team to the '07-08 Capitals.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Comparing linemates.... you can say each had an elite playmaker in Backstrom (though a rookie!) and Marner. PP lines WSH had (I think) Semin and Green, TOR had Rielly and Nylander. Advantage AM there, imo.

Ovie wasn't united with Backstrom until part way through the season. Backstrom was about a .62 PPG through mid December. Then after that he started playing much more with Ovie and his PPG was .96 for the duration of the season.

 

[34]

Matthews scored more goals. So yeah…Matthews. Easy answer.