Better GOALscoring season: Ovie 07-08 vs Matthews 23-24

[amnesiac]

You have to adjust for PP and ES... I did the math for you

ok, you can go deep into adjusting the PP toi vs gaols as much as you want. As I said, it is information, and its relevance is up to the reader. If thats the main factor that makes you think AM had the better goalscoring season, great! I wont debate that.

 

[34]

just so long as you are ready to declare Hyman and Reinhart better than Crosby, and Panarin better than every player from that generation, then you have my full respect.

That is not a proper argument. Hyman is a merchant of McDavid. He is a 25 goal scorer without him. I like Hyman, good Toronto kid…well they both are McDavid and him.

Matthews is an entirely different animal, he has scored more goals than everybody in the world since entering the NHL. I am also a big Ovi fan, but the fact is Matthews is ahead of him at the same points in their careers.

 

[notbias]

ok, you can go deep into adjusting the PP toi vs gaols as much as you want. As I said, it is information, and its relevance is up to the reader. If thats the main factor that makes you think AM had the better goalscoring season, great! I wont debate that.

It is only a factor when people bring up era-adjusted to try to say Ovi was better when he had a huge advantage with ~30-40% more PP time.

Otherwise, I don't care too much, but glad we can finally agree this season Matthews was better than Ovi's season.

 

[amnesiac]

It is only a factor when people bring up era-adjusted to try to say Ovi was better when he had a huge advantage with ~30-40% more PP time.

Otherwise, I don't care too much, but glad we can finally agree this season Matthews was better than Ovi's season.

Didnt say we agreed on that. I think its close, and theres arguments on both sides. Depends on you.

Thats all Ive been saying anyway. I dont have to choose a side and defend it to death. Both had their own advantages and disadvantages relative to the other.

 

[keglu]

But then you have to account for positional as well, Ovi is not as responsible defensively.

I don't think either team's D is overly offensive and their most common linemates are comparable to me... but sure, edge to Matthews there.

Matthews was with Marner/Knies most
Ovechkin was with Backstrom/Kozlov most

Does it matter which team had people that scored more on the 2nd line?

Ovi had 43 ESG and 22 PPG, he played 1879 at ES and 460 on the PP.
Matthews had 51 ESG and 18 PPG, he played 1698 at ES and 276 on the PP.

ESG/60
Ovi = 1.37
Matthews = 1.80

PPG/60
Ovi = 2.87
Matthews = 3.91

we should do some "ice-time adjusted stats" just like our era-adjusted.

Matthews had 56 ESG and 30 PPG using Ovi's TOI.

So Matthews' new ice-time adjusted goals is 86, which you can now era-adjust and tell me who had the better season.

Can also linemate adjust and then adjust for defensive impact if you'd like.

You have TOI described as ES and ESG/60 calculations incorrect as result.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Lock it up its not close , and the nerds are starting to write paragraphs about pp time and expected per 60 ,close it up

 

[amnesiac]

Lock it up its not close , and the nerds are starting to write paragraphs about pp time and expected per 60 ,close it up

some people just have an agenda..... those fanboys, usually

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Gotta love how the OP wants us not to be biased, then mentions how Matthews is better at defense and his goals should be valued higher because he had less chances.

OV is more physical. Can y’all imagine just how many goals he would have had if he didn’t throw 3X as many hits and could just focus on scoring goals?

 

[Old Gregg]

Does the era adjusted goals take into account schedule changes between the different eras? rule changes etc? Just curious

 

[Pi]

I'd be very interested to see a poll of the better assist season and see if it follows the same trend.

Thornton had a 96 assist season which is way better than McDavid and Kucherov's 100 assist seasons because the second best player that year only had 71 assists. Nobody lead the assist race this year and the third best player also had 85+ assists.

For some reason though, I think people will vote for McDavid and Kucherov.

Matthews had 50 freaking ES goals. That doesn't happen often.

 

[amnesiac]

Gotta love how the OP wants us not to be biased, then mentions how Matthews is better at defense and his goals should be valued higher because he had less chances.

OV is more physical. Can y’all imagine just how many goals he would have had if he didn’t throw 3X as many hits and could just focus on scoring goals?

gotta love how Y'ALL fail to mention that I pointed out Ovi having 72 adjusted goals and that Matthews had the better linemates.

Selective reading as usual.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

At the same time, Matthews was a significantly more efficient PP scorer but received much lower PP ice time even relative to the league.

Yet at the same time, OV drew more penalties and at a higher rate than Matthews due to his more physical nature and being more difficult to maintain off the rush.

Seems easier to just pretend OV didn’t deserve more power play chances than Matthews rather than having to admit he is a physical specimen that’s one of the hardest people to guard all time off the rush in during his prime.

 

[amnesiac]

Does the era adjusted goals take into account schedule changes between the different eras? rule changes etc? Just curious

Any rule changes, etc produce a league GPG avg over the course of a given season.

era adjusted stats simply takes the league's GPG avg ratio between 2 seasons, and multiply bu that factor, as thats all the matters in the end.\

This goes for any changes..... rules, sticks/equipment, goalie size, defensive systems, diluted defensive tealent due to expansion.... it ALL factors in to what the league GPG avg is at the end of the season. Thats what you compare.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

gotta love how Y'ALL fail to mention that I pointed out Ovi having 72 adjusted goals and that Matthews had the better linemates.

Selective reading as usual.

Bringing up that Matthews is more efficient on the power play and insinuating that he would have outscored OV should the power play time be higher is pathetic attempt to hide your bias.

It’s intellectually dishonest. Adjusted goals is a stat that has context inherently. Listing power play time down without any context is weak.

 

[amnesiac]

Bringing up that Matthews is more efficient on the power play and insinuating that he would have outscored OV should the power play time be higher is pathetic attempt to hide your bias.

It’s intellectually dishonest. Adjusted goals is a stat that has context inherently. Listing power play time down without any context is weak.

That was @notbias 's post, not mine!..... You really have reading comprehension issues, dude.

Jesus Christ, these posters on here. So quick to judge.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

That was @notbias 's post, not mine!..... You really have reading comprehension issues, dude.

Jesus Christ, these posters on here. So quick to judge.

Nah. I already brought up your bias showing on the original post when you brought up Matthews’ better defensive stats as a reason he might not have scored more. An absolute ridiculous assertion that is only used by Matthews fanboys and not by normal fans that come to appreciate both OV and Matthews.

You just responded with the ‘I am not biased, I brought up OVs linemates!’ Which is the equivalent of ‘I’m not ___, my friend is ____! I love ___!

 

[amnesiac]

Nah. I already brought up your bias showing on the original post when you brought up Matthews’ better defensive stats as a reason he might not have scored more. An absolute ridiculous assertion that is only used by Matthews fanboys and not by normal fans that come to appreciate both OV and Matthews.

You just responded with the ‘I am not biased, I brought up OVs linemates!’ Which is the equivalent of ‘I’m not ___, my friend is ____! I love ___!

are you for real, man? Its because Im acutally a bigger overall fan of Ovi than Matthews, believe it or not (not many Montrealers like Matthews!). Ive defended both side equally if you acutally took the time to read because it is indeed CLOSE.

Quote my posts about all the Ovi vs Matthews PP time, and how I continually defend AM. Go ahead Im waiting..... (but I know you wont since you wont find any, and that youre a lazy ass who just accuses other without quoting them)

I mean, you really as pathetic as they come here. You and that last guy I mentioned are EXACTLY what I pointed out in the OP. A couple of fanboys with agendas without putting any time or thought into this. Youre here just to pick a side and defend them to death. The fact that you cant even ACKNOWLEDGE thats its a very close comparison, and that there are indeed arguments for both sides is just telling of who you are.

 

[Old Gregg]

Gotta love how the OP wants us not to be biased, then mentions how Matthews is better at defense and his goals should be valued higher because he had less chances.

OV is more physical. Can y’all imagine just how many goals he would have had if he didn’t throw 3X as many hits and could just focus on scoring goals?

He would also be suspended in today's NHL for some of his hits

 

[keglu]

I'd be very interested to see a poll of the better assist season and see if it follows the same trend.

Thornton had a 96 assist season which is way better than McDavid and Kucherov's 100 assist seasons because the second best player that year only had 71 assists. Nobody lead the assist race this year and the third best player also had 85+ assists.

For some reason though, I think people will vote for McDavid and Kucherov.

Matthews had 50 freaking ES goals. That doesn't happen often.

05/06 scoring was almost identical to this season so McDavid/Kucherov>Thornton.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

are you for real, man? Ive defended both side equally if you acutally took the time to read. Youre really as pathetic as they come here.

Quote my posts about all the Ovi vs Matthews PP time, and how I continually defend AM.

Go ahead Im waiting.....

I literally have no idea what you are trying to say here. It actually kind of hurts to read.

Look, it is just a silly argument to bring up Mathews being 'better at defense' as a reason he might have scored more. You are saying if he focused more on the offensive end he would somehow score more? It just makes no sense. Matthews doesn't play significant PK time. It is actually what is keeping him from being a realistic Selke candidate. Are you saying the extra efforts hustling back on defense is keeping him from being able to exert effort when the play goes the other way? I don't know what the logic is here from Matthews fans that actually bring this up.

Yeah, OV cheated on defense and sometimes wandered at the blue line in the defensive zone looking for the chance to create a turnover and a breakaway or get an odd man rush going the other way or a pass for a breakaway. But he was one of the best in the world and all time off the rush. Every time he got an odd man rush he would score or create a very dangerous chance. You would have to illegally hook or hold him up because he was so big and explosive. Matthews wouldn't be as effective in that role.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

05/06 scoring was almost identical to this season so McDavid/Kucherov>Thornton.

Fair point. The reason why Thornton wasn't as effective as Kucherov/McDavid was because nobody ever feared that Thornton was a goal scoring threat or even would have the guts to shoot so they were looking for the pass and expecting the pass. McDavid and Kucherov can actually sell the defense on the shot threat which opens up better passing lanes.

 

[amnesiac]

I literally have no idea what you are trying to say here. It actually kind of hurts to read.

Look, it is just a silly argument to bring up Mathews being 'better at defense' as a reason he might have scored more. You are saying if he focused more on the offensive end he would somehow score more? It just makes no sense. Matthews doesn't play significant PK time. It is actually what is keeping him from being a realistic Selke candidate. Are you saying the extra efforts hustling back on defense is keeping him from being able to exert effort when the play goes the other way? I don't know what the logic is here from Matthews fans that actually bring this up.

Yeah, OV cheated on defense and sometimes wandered at the blue line in the defensive zone looking for the chance to create a turnover and a breakaway or get an odd man rush going the other way or a pass for a breakaway. But he was one of the best in the world and all time off the rush. Every time he got an odd man rush he would score or create a very dangerous chance. You would have to illegally hook or hold him up because he was so big and explosive. Matthews wouldn't be as effective in that role.

exactly, you wont find a single post of me continuously defending Matthews. See how pathetic that is? How you accuse and quote the wrong people? And cant even man up to say "sorry my bad, i misquoted the wrong person"..... With that kind of mentality, you must be a Gen Z.

I mean, youre the one coming in here and being the fanboy, exactly what I pointed out in the OP. You just have an agenda, and cant acknowledge the fact that its ACUTALLY CLOSE between to the 2.

And yes playing more defense does take away from your offensive chances. Thats just logic. Its the reason why guys like Bergeron, Kopitar, Toews etc didnt put up 90+P a season. I know its hard for you to comprehend, though, but I cant help you there.

But then Toronto had the better overall team and PP, so that helped AM too.

See how I can acutally give arguments to BOTH sides? You should try it, fanboy.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

He would also be suspended in today's NHL for some of his hits

Hey, OV is playing in today's NHL. It isn't too different from 10 years ago with regards to physicality. OV was also suspended back then for his hits. His suspension for his hit to Brian Campbell cost him a Hart.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

exactly, you wont find a single post of me continuously defending Matthews. See how pathetic that is? How you accuse and quote the wrong people? And cant even man up to say "sorry my bad, i misquoted the wrong person"..... With that kind of mentality, you must be a Gen Z.

I mean, youre the one coming in here and being the fanboy, exactly what I pointed out in the OP. You just have an agenda, and cant acknowledge the fact that its ACUTALLY CLOSE between to the 2.

Is English your first language? Serious question.

And yes playing more defense does take away from your offensive chances. Thats just logic. Its the reasons why guys like Bergeron, Kopitar, Toews etc didnt put up 90+P a season. I know its hard for you to comprehend, though, but I cant help you there.

No it doesn't. That is a silly argument brought up by someone way too deep on one player. I won't entertain silly arguments like that. There have been reasonable arguments for why Matthews' goal scoring season is more impressive, and that isn't one of them.

Bergeron, Kopitar, and Toews kill nearly half of their teams' penalties. Matthews kills a fraction of that. The argument you are presenting isn't even apples to apples.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Era adjusted is shoulda coulda woulda...

This whole thread is people arguing that if Prime Ovi was in the NHL today he would have got more than 69...

Posts like these are hilarious.

Good chance he would have. OV was a beast.