Best Player In the World

[FinProspects]

Crosby really was the best player in the NHL in 2013-14. That is the only time you could say that in the past 10 seasons, and he hasn't cracked 90 points since.

.

How on earth you dont see Sid as the best player in 12-13? I mean..how? 1.56ppg, the second best had 1.25ppg. 3rd in scoring despite missing 25% of the regular season.

Also in 10-11 he was THE best player in NHL. 1.61ppg, the second best had 1.27ppg. But as he missed 50% of the season we cannot really be 100% sure he would have won it all that season, but he was very clearly ahead of anyone during those 41 games so it kinda feels wrong to say that D Sedin or Corey Perry were the best players in that season, simply because they were not. We really dont need Sid to play those missing 41 games to prove a point. He was the best, simple as that.

 

[SUX2BU]

Harold Snepsts .....

 

[quoipourquoi]

Do not use this thread as a means of talking about hockey from the last week on the history board. Guy is rolling nothing but 7s, no doubt, but you all have takeout in your fridge that's older than Game 1 of this round.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Final warning.

 

[daver]

Being the best player in the world is not always shown through award voting or statistics. For example: Sidney Crosby hasn't won a single individual award the past two seasons, but he's been considered the best player in the world over that time.


I would like to try to reconstruct a timeline of the players that were considered "The Best In The World" for as far back as we can go. There will be transition years where there might be 2 players to list and there might even be a period where there is no consensus best. Also, to keep it simpler, please exclude goalies.

Here is a VERY RAW attempt at starting things off...

2017: Crosby
2016: Crosby
2015: Crosby
2014: Crosby
2013: Crosby
2012: Crosby
2011: Ovechkin/Crosby
2010: Ovechkin/Crosby
2009: Ovechkin/Crosby
2008: Ovechkin/Crosby
2007: Lidstrom/Crosby
2006: Nicklas Lidstrom
2004: Peter Forsberg
2003: Peter Forsberg
2002: Jagr/Lemieux/Lidstrom/Forsberg???
2001: Jaromir Jagr
2000: Jaromir Jagr
1999: Jaromir Jagr
1998: Jaromir Jagr
1997: Lemieux/Jagr
1996: Mario Lemieux
1995: Mario Lemieux
1994: Mario Lemieux
1993: Mario Lemieux
1992: Mario Lemieux
1991: Mario Lemieux
1990: Lemieux/Gretzky
1989: Lemieux/Gretzky
1988: Wayne Gretzky
1987: Wayne Gretzky
1986: Wayne Gretzky
1985: Wayne Gretzky
1984: Wayne Gretzky
1983: Wayne Gretzky
1982: Wayne Gretzky
1981: Wayne Gretzky
1980: Trottier/Gretzky?
1979: Guy Lafleur
1978: Guy Lafleur
1977: Guy Lafleur
1976: Orr/Lafleur
1975: Bobby Orr
1974: Bobby Orr
1973: Bobby Orr
1972: Bobby Orr
1971: Bobby Orr
1970: Bobby Orr
1969: Hull/Orr
1968: Bobby Hull
1967: Bobby Hull
1966: Bobby Hull
1965: Bobby Hull
1964: Bobby Hull
1963: Howe/Hull
1962: Howe/Hull
1961: Gordie Howe
1960: Gordie Howe
1959: Gordie Howe
1958: Gordie Howe
1957: Gordie Howe
1956: Gordie Howe
1955: Gordie Howe
1954: Gordie Howe
1953: Gordie Howe
1952: Gordie Howe
1951: Richard/Howe
1950: Maurice Richard
1949: Maurice Richard
1948: Maurice Richard
1947: Maurice Richard


I figured the end of WWII was a good place to stop. I pretty much did this off the top of my head, so I'm sure there will be a lot of things that need to be changed, especially for the earlier years. Looking forward to everyone's contributions...

2018 - McDavid/Crosby
2019 - Has McDavid shown enough to take the title alone? Did Crosby rebound enough this year to keep his name up there? What about Kucherov?

 

[bobholly39]

2018 - McDavid/Crosby
2019 - Has McDavid shown enough to take the title alone? Did Crosby rebound enough this year to keep his name up there? What about Kucherov?

You need to do a ton of mental acrobats to claim Sidney Crosby is the best player in the world in 2019.

McDavid has clearly earned the title of the best. I'd say as far back as 2017 i'd have McDavid/Crosby together at the top. 2018 is McDavid solo, and 2019 is McDavid and probably Kucherov split.

You can still answer Crosby first to the question "who would you pick for just 1 series, or just 1 season+playoffs" going into next year - and normally to me that is a huge component of being best in the world - but i think it's more reputation by now. He's not done enough the past 2 years to still be up there at #1.

I think McDavid has earned the right to be a level up (Kucherov is a bit more subjective - but to me it's not just last season, i think he should have been in running for hart the year prior too).

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby 11-17 no debate

 

[VanIslander]

Crosby 11-17 no debate

3-time 1st team (1 Hart, 2 Pearson)
2-time 2nd team all star,
1.5 Conn Smythes (cuz no way both're deserved).

Goals 1st, 7th, 7th
Assists 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 9th

This decade he is 6th in goals, 3rd in assists...

... looks worthy i guess...

Not the greatest time period in hockey history for offense (or defense or goaltending).

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

3-time 1st team (1 Hart, 2 Pearson)
2-time 2nd team all star,
1.5 Conn Smythes (cuz no way both're deserved).

Goals 1st, 7th, 7th
Assists 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 9th

This decade he is 6th in goals, 3rd in assists...

... looks worthy i guess...

Not the greatest time period in hockey history for offense (or defense or goaltending).

2 Richards
2 smythes
2 Lindsay’s
Art Ross
Hart
World Cup MVP

 

[VanIslander]

If you double dip...

Putting overlapping accomplishments on separate lines is misleading.

 

[daver]

You need to do a ton of mental acrobats to claim Sidney Crosby is the best player in the world in 2019.

McDavid has clearly earned the title of the best. I'd say as far back as 2017 i'd have McDavid/Crosby together at the top. 2018 is McDavid solo, and 2019 is McDavid and probably Kucherov split.

You can still answer Crosby first to the question "who would you pick for just 1 series, or just 1 season+playoffs" going into next year - and normally to me that is a huge component of being best in the world - but i think it's more reputation by now. He's not done enough the past 2 years to still be up there at #1.

I think McDavid has earned the right to be a level up (Kucherov is a bit more subjective - but to me it's not just last season, i think he should have been in running for hart the year prior too).

Wasn't making that claim; put the question out there given the "bigger picture" emphasis from the OP.

Crosby was still the clear best player after the 16/17 season, and now has had two seasons of 2nd tierish play. I can see some making it a three way tie at the top as Kucherov has arguably as strong a case as McDavid and then wondering if Kucherov is clearly ahead of Crosby.

Or McDavid alone may be the safest bet. As some of the earlier picks are based on retrospect, Crosby could sneak back in there (or never left) with another top tier season.

 

[bobholly39]

3-time 1st team (1 Hart, 2 Pearson)
2-time 2nd team all star,
1.5 Conn Smythes (cuz no way both're deserved).

Goals 1st, 7th, 7th
Assists 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 9th

This decade he is 6th in goals, 3rd in assists...

... looks worthy i guess...

Not the greatest time period in hockey history for offense (or defense or goaltending).

Between 2011 and 2017 Sidney Crosby was considered the best player in the world.

Today in 2019 - Connor McDavid has that mantle. If he only plays 20 games next year because of injury - he'll still be considered the best player in the world going into the following season (short of Kucherov repeating/surpassing him of course - not something anyone did to Crosby in 2011-2017).

There's a difference between being considered the best player in the world and having the best season.

The way I like to pick the best player in the world is by asking "who would you pick going into the new season - in a vacuum - for a team, for one year". I think Crosby wins that between 2011 and 2017 pretty easily

 

[VanIslander]

Between 2011 and 2017 Sidney Crosby was considered the best player in the world....

There's a difference between being considered the best player in the world and having the best season....

Gee, that explains how between 2011 and 2017:

Hart trophy winners included 7 different players: Perry, Malkin, Ovechkin, Crosby, Price, Kane, McDavid.

Art Ross trophy winners included 7 different players: D.Sedin, Malkin, St. Louis, Benn, Crosby, Kane, McDavid.

What an underwhelming edge anyone could claim, relative to other eras with much more dominant performers!

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

3-time 1st team (1 Hart, 2 Pearson)
2-time 2nd team all star,
1.5 Conn Smythes (cuz no way both're deserved).

Goals 1st, 7th, 7th
Assists 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 9th

This decade he is 6th in goals, 3rd in assists...

... looks worthy i guess...

Not the greatest time period in hockey history for offense (or defense or goaltending).

That's because today's players are much better.

 

[daver]

3-time 1st team (1 Hart, 2 Pearson)
2-time 2nd team all star,
1.5 Conn Smythes (cuz no way both're deserved).

Goals 1st, 7th, 7th
Assists 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 9th

This decade he is 6th in goals, 3rd in assists...

... looks worthy i guess...

Not the greatest time period in hockey history for offense (or defense or goaltending).

Why would you not list any of his Art Ross finishes along with his other Hart and Lindsay finishes and compare those to the best of everyone else? You list his goal and assist placings so you obviously feel there is relevance to elite offensive performances and elite MVP performances. Then you would see that he is clearly the dominant player of the decade after being no worse than the clear #2.

I would also be interested to see your list of best players from other eras using the same criteria.

 

[daver]

That's because today's players are much better.

I don't think we need to go down this rabbit hole. There have been multiple performances by multiple players in the past decade that should be viewed as rivaling some of the best seasons non-Wayne/Mario seasons offensively.

I think the post Wayne/Mario era is similar to the O6 from the mid-forties to '67. One player stood out from the pack but not so much that others could not match (or get close to) their best RS or playoff performances.

IMO, the other poster is trying their best to position Crosby as a weak pick when it is obvious to everyone else that bad luck kept his raw numbers and trophy wins from being even better. There is nothing holding McDavid back from separating himself from his peers.

 

[daver]

McDavid has clearly earned the title of the best. I'd say as far back as 2017 i'd have McDavid/Crosby together at the top. 2018 is McDavid solo, and 2019 is McDavid and probably Kucherov split.

Kind of splitting hairs here but I think if you have McDavid solo in 2018 then Crosby is solo in 2017.

 

[daver]

1969: Hull/Orr
1968: Bobby Hull
1967: Bobby Hull
1966: Bobby Hull
1965: Bobby Hull
1964: Bobby Hull
1963: Howe/Hull
1962: Howe/Hull
1961: Gordie Howe
1960: Gordie Howe
1959: Gordie Howe
1958: Gordie Howe
1957: Gordie Howe
1956: Gordie Howe
1955: Gordie Howe
1954: Gordie Howe
1953: Gordie Howe
1952: Gordie Howe
1951: Richard/Howe
1950: Maurice Richard

Given the reasonable overlaps between Richard/Howe and Howe/Hull, I think you have to add Beliveau to Howe somewhere in the period from 55/56 to 60/61 if not for the whole timeframe.

 

[VanIslander]

Why would you not list any of his Art Ross finishes along with his other Hart and Lindsay finishes and compare those to the best of everyone else? You list his goal and assist placings so you obviously feel there is relevance to elite offensive performances and elite MVP performances.

The key word is performances.

What is produced relative to others (top-10 goals, assists) is different than the opinions of voters (Hart, Lindsay).

We live in the age of huge hype for Crosby from before he played a single game and through his rookie season (he did not win the Calder but excuses galore were shouted from the rooftops).

I would also be interested to see your list of best players from other eras using the same criteria.

Gretzky
Goals: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 6th
Assists: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 5th, 5th, 6th, 9th

Orr
Goals: 6th, 8th, 8th
Assists: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd

(Note: Orr revolutionized the position, and has one of the greatest peaks, but not one of the best careers.

I am on record many places as saying the gap between Esposito and Orr is too big. Just look at Espo's numbers - hard to discount away most of it due to Orr; Esposito's...
Goals: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 8th
Assists: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 6th)

Hull (not including WHA production)
Goals: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th
Assists: 5th, 5th, 6th, 6th, 6th

Howe
Goals: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 6th, 6th, 7th, 7th, 8th
Assists: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 9th

Etc.

Crosby's production in terms of seasons pales by comparison. His whole career:
Goals: 1st, 1st, 7th, 7th
Assists: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 7th, 7th, 9th

(Queue excuses!)

 

[daver]

The key word is performances.

What is produced relative to others (top-10 goals, assists) is different than the opinions of voters (Hart, Lindsay).

3-time 1st team (1 Hart, 2 Pearson)
2-time 2nd team all star,
1.5 Conn Smythes (cuz no way both're deserved).

So why did you lead your original post with a list of subjective honors? What point were you trying to make?

 

[daver]

The key word is performances.

What is produced relative to others (top-10 goals, assists) is different than the opinions of voters (Hart, Lindsay).

We live in the age of huge hype for Crosby from before he played a single game and through his rookie season (he did not win the Calder but excuses galore were shouted from the rooftops).


Gretzky
Goals: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 6th
Assists: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 5th, 5th, 6th, 9th

Orr
Goals: 6th, 8th, 8th
Assists: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd

(Note: Orr revolutionized the position, and has one of the greatest peaks, but not one of the best careers.

I am on record many places as saying the gap between Esposito and Orr is too big. Just look at Espo's numbers - hard to discount away most of it due to Orr; Esposito's...
Goals: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 8th
Assists: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 6th)

Hull (not including WHA production)
Goals: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th
Assists: 5th, 5th, 6th, 6th, 6th

Howe
Goals: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 6th, 6th, 7th, 7th, 8th
Assists: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 9th

Etc.

Crosby's production in terms of seasons pales by comparison. His whole career:
Goals: 1st, 1st, 7th, 7th
Assists: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 7th, 7th, 9th

(Queue excuses!)

You still have not explained why point totals aren't listed nor any reason why reasonable context for missed time is not applicable.

 

[VanIslander]

So why did you lead your original post with a list of subjective honors? What point were you trying to make?

Please. You asked me to apply the same criteria to others and I did.

I am not reductionist. I don't reduce all judgement down to one thing. But I do discount voting awards in an era i've lived through and seen hype, excuses and spin to pimp, preserve and promote an idol.

Geez.

 

[K Fleur]

The people who vote for the Hart/Lindsay etc. opinions only ever come into question when they vote for a player or result that you don’t like.

Discounting them is the figurative equivalent to sticking your head in the sand

 

[Midnight Judges]

How on earth you dont see Sid as the best player in 12-13? I mean..how? 1.56ppg, the second best had 1.25ppg. 3rd in scoring despite missing 25% of the regular season.

Best players in the world don’t get doubled up in goals.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Also in 10-11 he was THE best player in NHL. 1.61ppg, the second best had 1.27ppg. But as he missed 50% of the season we cannot really be 100% sure he would have won it all that season, but he was very clearly ahead of anyone during those 41 games so it kinda feels wrong to say that D Sedin or Corey Perry were the best players in that season, simply because they were not. We really dont need Sid to play those missing 41 games to prove a point. He was the best, simple as that.

I like how Crosby gets a 2-3 year grace period after 1 Hart in 8 years but Ovechkin doesn’t even get half a season grace period after sweeping almost every award for 3 straight seasons.