Best Player In the World

[TheGoldenJet]

I'm a huge Pittsburgh fan, but you can't play 22 games over 2 seasons and be considered the "best player in the world" over that time. Even if your name is Mario Lemieux. Updated list:


2014: Sidney Crosby
2013: Sidney Crosby
2012: Evgeni Malkin
2011: Ovechkin/Crosby
2010: Ovechkin/Crosby
2009: Evgeni Malkin
2008: Alex Ovechkin
2007: Sidney Crosby
2006: Nicklas Lidstrom
2004: Nicklas Lidstrom
2003: Lidstrom/Forsberg
2002: Nicklas Lidstrom
2001: Jaromir Jagr
2000: Jagr/Pronger
1999: Jaromir Jagr
1998: Jaromir Jagr
1997: Mario Lemieux
1996: Mario Lemieux
1995: Lindros/Fedorov
1994: Sergei Fedorov
1993: Mario Lemieux
1992: Mario Lemieux
1991: Mario Lemieux

I also took playoffs into account as well.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

Very good list, but Lidstrom had what is generally considered his worst season in 2003-04 and I think you'd be hard-pressed to consider him the best player in the world at the time. I'd give that season to Martin St. Louis personally: Hart Trophy, Lindsay, Art Ross, and Stanley Cup.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Very good list, but Lidstrom had what is generally considered his worst season in 2003-04 and I think you'd be hard-pressed to consider him the best player in the world at the time. I'd give that season to Martin St. Louis personally: Hart Trophy, Lindsay, Art Ross, and Stanley Cup.

Yes, MSL had a glorious year. Was it good enough to be considered the best? Given that Lidstrom was still the mantle holder (and Norris winner) the year before, and after? I still gave it ti Nick because he was a monster in the playoffs that year for Detroit, but I could go with MSL here just as easily.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

I don't really remember that post-season that well in the Western Conference beyond Detroit being upset by the red-hot Flames and Kiprusoff in the midst of their unexpected run to the Stanley Cup Finals, so I cannot fairly comment on how well Lidstrom performed. I'm assuming well, but when Niedermayer, Chara, Pronger, and McCabe were all judged to have had superior regular-seasons than Lidstrom at his position alone that year I am hesitant to give him the crown for best player. No argument on 2002 though: it might be his best all-around year along with 2008 IMO.

 

[livewell68]

I'm a huge Pittsburgh fan, but you can't play 22 games over 2 seasons and be considered the "best player in the world" over that time. Even if your name is Mario Lemieux. Updated list:


2014: Sidney Crosby
2013: Sidney Crosby
2012: Evgeni Malkin
2011: Ovechkin/Crosby
2010: Ovechkin/Crosby, Henrik Sedin was better than Crosby that season
2009: Evgeni Malkin
2008: Alex Ovechkin
2007: Sidney Crosby
2006: Nicklas Lidstrom should be Jagr and Thornton
2004: Nicklas Lidstrom should be MSL or Sakic
2003: Lidstrom/Forsberg I would replace Lidstrom with Naslund
2002: Nicklas Lidstrom only if you include the playoffs and that season the competition was rather poor for top end players
2001: Jaromir Jagr, add Sakic
2000: Jagr/Pronger
1999: Jaromir Jagr
1998: Jaromir Jagr
1997: Mario Lemieux should be Hasek
1996: Mario Lemieux, you should include Jagr since you're putting 2 players in some years
1995: Lindros/Fedorov should be Jagr since he won the Art Ross and finished a close 2nd in Hart voting) while Fedorov didn't even win a Selke
1994: Sergei Fedorov add Hasek
1993: Mario Lemieux Gilmour was a valid 2nd best player
1992: Mario Lemieux
1991: Mario Lemieux

I also took playoffs into account as well.

I think Kipprisuff, Thornton and Jagr are more deserving than Lidstrom in 2006.

Lidstrom was not particularly good in the playoffs that year while Jagr and Thornton both had much better +/- and outscored him by 43 and 45 Pts respectively.

Jagr also had a much more worse supporting cast that season than Lidstrom did. Otherwise MSL should be the choice in 2004 as well.

Fedorov was rather average in 1995 considering what he had done the previous season and what he did the following season. Jagr should be there instead of Fedorov.

If you want to give 2 players a spot in some seasons then Jagr should be given the second spot in 1996 (his 149 Pts were 29 more than the NHL's 3rd leading scorer) and Sakic should be 3rd considering his regular season and playoff performance combined.

 

[Thenameless]

When Lemieux started to lose his dominance due to injuries in the mid 90's, I think that the consensus pick of the time would have been Lindros over both Fedorov and Jagr. Short-lived as his reign may have been.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think Kipprisuff, Thornton and Jagr are more deserving than Lidstrom in 2006.

Lidstrom was not particularly good in the playoffs that year while Jagr and Thornton both had much better +/- and outscored him by 43 and 45 Pts respectively.

Jagr also had a much more worse supporting cast that season than Lidstrom did. Otherwise MSL should be the choice in 2004 as well.

Fedorov was rather average in 1995 considering what he had done the previous season and what he did the following season. Jagr should be there instead of Fedorov.

If you want to give 2 players a spot in some seasons then Jagr should be given the second spot in 1996 (his 149 Pts were 29 more than the NHL's 3rd leading scorer) and Sakic should be 3rd considering his regular season and playoff performance combined.

Thornton has a case for 2006, since he was also good in 2004 and 2007. Kipper... kind of fell off big time in 2007, but I guess I can see it because he ended 2004 so strong. As this is not about best single season, I can't see Jagr in 2006, as it was more of a late career blip for him, as he fell off in 2007 and was weak in 2006.

The case for Lidstrom is the "long view" - over the course of 2001-02 to 2005-06, he was the best player. That would be a much stronger case if Lidstrom didn't have his one off-year in 2003-04. That one mistimed off-year really robs Lidstrom of the title of "best player in the world" over the course of a half-decade, which would probably give him a better case against Bourque/Shore/Harvey on all-time lists.

MSL had the best season in 2004, but considering he had poor years in 2003 and 2006, it's tough to make the case for him being the best player in the world.

I sort of see the case for Fedorov in 1995- it is more by "default" than anything. Though I guess he was great in the playoffs. I mean, 1994 and 1995 are easily Lemieux if healthy, anyway. The issue with Jagr is this - over the course of 1995-2001, he is clearly the 2nd best player behind Lemieux... but Lemieux was clearly so much better when he did play. (and in terms of single seasons, I agree with Lindros over Jagr in 1995, though I don't think this is supposed to be about single seasons)

Actually, that makes me thing - most of us would have Lemieux as the best player in the world from 1992 or so (whenever he took over from Gretzky) until his second retirement in 1997. Despite missing two season in their. Would that mean it would only be fair to give 2001-02 to 2005-06 to Lidstrom? Or is having an off-season worse than not playing for 2 seasons in something like this?

 

[JaysCyYoung]

To be honest, I also was interpreting the original question as determining who the best player in each individual season was rather than an extended period of time. To me, the variation in quality (some guys having off years, other players career years) makes it a much more compelling question to ponder.

And yes, that would result in the aforementioned Lindros being considered the best in 1994-95, St. Louis in 2003-04, etc.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

To be honest, I also was interpreting the original question as determining who the best player in each individual season was rather than an extended period of time. To me, the variation in quality (some guys having off years, other plaster so career years) makes it a much more compelling question to ponder.

And yes, that would result in the aforementioned Lindros being considered the best in 1994-95, St. Louis in 2003-04, etc.

If that's the case, why not just look at the Hart winner every season (or maybe the runner up if the voting is close), while occasionally allowing a strong Norris or Vezina winner?

 

[JaysCyYoung]

Because the Hart Trophy winner has frequently not gone to the best player in that particular season. I'm not even talking the infamous Al Rollins or Ted Kennedy selections either. Just think back over the recent past with selections like 2013 Ovechkin, 2011 Corey Perry, 2010 Henrik Sedin, the extremely contentious 2006, 2002, and 2000 Thornton, Theodore, and Pronger selections, Messier over Bourque in 1990 and so forth. Plenty of room for discussion and disagreement with those years alone.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Actually, that makes me thing - most of us would have Lemieux as the best player in the world from 1992 or so (whenever he took over from Gretzky) until his second retirement in 1997. Despite missing two season in their. Would that mean it would only be fair to give 2001-02 to 2005-06 to Lidstrom? Or is having an off-season worse than not playing for 2 seasons in something like this?

I think an off season for Lidstrom, offensively, but still playing 27:30 MPG (a full 3 MPG more than the next Dman for Detroit) would be more important than not playing at all of very little.

Of course in some peoples eyes Mario playing a little he still keeps his mantle but a guy, let's call him Sid, doing the same thing then he wouldn't.

What gives eh?

 

[Rhiessan71]

I think an off season for Lidstrom, offensively, but still playing 27:30 MPG (a full 3 MPG more than the next Dman for Detroit) would be more important than not playing at all of very little.

Of course in some peoples eyes Mario playing a little he still keeps his mantle but a guy, let's call him Sid, doing the same thing then he wouldn't.

What gives eh?

Because Mario actually DID over FULL seasons.
Crosby has yet to dominate to any where close the level Mario did over a FULL season.
Mario had boatloads of credit built up, Sid does NOT!

Mario comes back after recovering from freakin Cancer and blows away his own teammate (Jagr) by 12 points despite playing 12 less games and blows the rest of the field (Sakic) away by a staggering 41 points.
2.30 PpG vs 1.82 and 1.46

Please stop trying to bring this up over and over like it's remotely the same situation. It's not!
Mario DID, Crosby didn't/hasn't period!!!

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Does anyone here know the best during the 1890s?

 

[The Panther]

1994: Sergei Fedorov
1993: Mario Lemieux
1992: Mario Lemieux
1991: Mario Lemieux

I also took playoffs into account as well.

I agree with 1992 and 1993.

About 1991, I take Gretzky. That year, he won his 2nd-straight scoring title (by a larger margin than any player in the NHL since then), his team was in 1st place, and he captained, led in scoring, and won the Canada Cup. Yes, Mario was great for a couple of weeks in the playoffs and won the Cup, but by the same token we're taking Mario in '93 (I agree) even though Gretzky scored 40 playoff points and led his team to the Finals when the Pens crapped out.

About 1994, I just don't think Fedorov has a claim to ever being the best player in the world. I know you don't want to say Mario because he barely played (and let's not forget that Wayne won the scoring title despite playing on a crappy team), but Fedorov just didn't reach that level, in my view. He may have been the best player in 1993-94 (though even that's debatable) but one superb season does not push you to the top level. So about this season/year, I'm not sure.

For the Gretzky/Lemieux years, it's probably like this:
1980 to 1988 = Gretzky
1988 to 1990 = Lemieux
1991 = Gretzky
1992 to 1996 = Lemieux (could be 1997 as well)

I guess it's just a question of how much benefit we want to give Mario for the shortened/missed 1994 and 1995 seasons. But I think he's earned it.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

I think Kipprisuff, Thornton and Jagr are more deserving than Lidstrom in 2006.

Lidstrom was not particularly good in the playoffs that year while Jagr and Thornton both had much better +/- and outscored him by 43 and 45 Pts respectively.

Jagr also had a much more worse supporting cast that season than Lidstrom did. Otherwise MSL should be the choice in 2004 as well.

Fedorov was rather average in 1995 considering what he had done the previous season and what he did the following season. Jagr should be there instead of Fedorov.

If you want to give 2 players a spot in some seasons then Jagr should be given the second spot in 1996 (his 149 Pts were 29 more than the NHL's 3rd leading scorer) and Sakic should be 3rd considering his regular season and playoff performance combined.

We are not doing goalies in this thread.
Thornton and Jagr were pretty much dead heat tied for forwards, whereas Lidstrom was the clear and justified Norris winner in 2006, so I disagree there.

Yes already acknowledged MSL as a potential winner for 2004. And missing Sakic in 2001 was just a brain fart by me.

Fedorov in 1995 over Jagr for me, because of his monster playoffs and good regular season.
Henrik Sedin...please

 

[bobholly39]

I'm a huge Pittsburgh fan, but you can't play 22 games over 2 seasons and be considered the "best player in the world" over that time. Even if your name is Mario Lemieux. Updated list:
.

I disagree 100%.

Question. Whose the best player in the world today? A. Crosby.

If Mckinnon has an nhl season of 150+points (and everyone else is below 100) I will change my mind at years end and consider him the new best. But, unless some insanely crazy event such as this happens, at the end of the year I will still consider Crosby the best player in the world. Whether he plays 82 games or 22 games or 0 games.

Now if you want to argue "who played the best in a given year" than ok. The year Mario played 22 games you can say others outplayed him but he was still considered better.


Also just to specify - no I dont expect Mckinnon to score 150pts it was just an example lol.

 

[MastuhNinks]

I'm a huge Pittsburgh fan, but you can't play 22 games over 2 seasons and be considered the "best player in the world" over that time. Even if your name is Mario Lemieux. Updated list:


2014: Sidney Crosby
2013: Sidney Crosby
2012: Evgeni Malkin
2011: Ovechkin/Crosby
2010: Ovechkin/Crosby
2009: Evgeni Malkin
2008: Alex Ovechkin
2007: Sidney Crosby
2006: Nicklas Lidstrom
2004: Nicklas Lidstrom
2003: Lidstrom/Forsberg
2002: Nicklas Lidstrom
2001: Jaromir Jagr
2000: Jagr/Pronger
1999: Jaromir Jagr
1998: Jaromir Jagr
1997: Mario Lemieux
1996: Mario Lemieux
1995: Lindros/Fedorov
1994: Sergei Fedorov
1993: Mario Lemieux
1992: Mario Lemieux
1991: Mario Lemieux

I also took playoffs into account as well.

I think it's better to say that a player was the best in the World if that's the genuine general consensus, even if they played few games, than to just say whoever happened to have the best season was the best player in the World.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

I disagree 100%.

Question. Whose the best player in the world today? A. Crosby.

If Mckinnon has an nhl season of 150+points (and everyone else is below 100) I will change my mind at years end and consider him the new best. But, unless some insanely crazy event such as this happens, at the end of the year I will still consider Crosby the best player in the world.

A crazy event like for instance a player winning a Hart trophy and a Selke in the same year (something never done before or since)?

 

[daver]

Best player in the World title throughout the years

I don't think there is an accepted criteria for establishing who the Best Player in the World is at any given time. It might be an interesting summer project to undertake to try to come up with a list of the year-by-year best player (s) in the world.

Any thoughts on a specific criteria? Obviously we could just list the annual award winners and be done with it but I see the title as being a more fluid rating based on a combination of recent regular season and playoff performances, along with a player's recent rating as the best.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Seems like just an update of this thread, right?

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=973915

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Looking to update the list in the OP...Crosby has pulled away from Ovechkin and has been recognized as the best player in the world by a strong majority. When did this start? My guess would be 2014 or 2015

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Looking to update the list in the OP...Crosby has pulled away from Ovechkin and has been recognized as the best player in the world by a strong majority. When did this start? My guess would be 2014 or 2015

Back in 2014, I said that Crosby had taken sole possession of the title in 2011:

I'm bumping this old thread because the topic has been brought up in that other thread. Here is my update of this post. Based on research during the centers project, Apps replaces Cowley for the early 40s. And Crosby gets his due alone the last few years.

1900-1909: Tommy Phillips, Frank McGee, Hod Stuart, Russell Bowie
1910-1917: Cyclone Taylor, Newsy Lalonde
1918-1921: Cyclone Taylor, Newsy Lalonde, Frank Nighbor
1922-1925: Frank Nighbor
1925-1932: Howie Morenz
1933-1939: Eddie Shore
1940-1944: Syl Apps, Sr
1945-1950: Maurice Richard
1951-1955: Gordie Howe
1956-1959: Gordie Howe, Jean Beliveau
1960-1964: Gordie Howe, Jean Beliveau, Bobby Hull
1965-1969: Bobby Hull, Stan Mikita
1970-1975: Bobby Orr
1976-1979: Guy Lafleur
1980-1987: Wayne Gretzky
1988-1993: Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux
1994-1997: Mario Lemieux
1998-2001: Jaromir Jagr
2002-2004: Peter Forsberg
2006-2007: Nicklas Lidstrom, Joe Thornton
2008-2010: Sidney Crosby, Alexander Ovechkin
2011-present: Sidney Crosby

But that was when Ovechkin was really having some down years, before reinventing himself as a Brett Hull type player and winning another (controversial) Hart.

By the way, I understand not wanting to include the really early players when things are less certain, but I think by now, we are fairly certain that best player in the world prior to WW2 passed from Nighbor to Morenz to Shore to Apps to Richard, though the exact years were rough estimates IIRC

 

[Canadiens1958]

Yes......

Seems like just an update of this thread, right?

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=973915

Yes and just as flawed.

Specifically, neither takes into account how hockey or the NHL has since 1917. The redefinition of skills required for the various skater positions. The importance of the various positions, team building or the management of a season or a career.

Effectively looking at the most prolific offensively or the best "hockey eye candy".

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Yes and just as flawed.

Specifically, neither takes into account how hockey or the NHL has since 1917. The redefinition of skills required for the various skater positions. The importance of the various positions, team building or the management of a season or a career.

Effectively looking at the most prolific offensively or the best "hockey eye candy".

Your comments on the above issues would be appreciated in the other thread. As the OP says, the initial list is very rough, and really just meant as a starting off point. It only goes to the end of WWII, but that was not meant to exclude the years prior from discussion, the list can be expanded.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Back in 2014, I said that Crosby had taken sole possession of the title in 2011:



But that was when Ovechkin was really having some down years, before reinventing himself as a Brett Hull type player and winning another (controversial) Hart.

By the way, I understand not wanting to include the really early players when things are less certain, but I think by now, we are fairly certain that best player in the world prior to WW2 passed from Nighbor to Morenz to Shore to Apps to Richard, though the exact years were rough estimates IIRC

Sorry I must've missed this, I agree on Crosby/Ovechkin...I was remembering the controversial Hart, but not the years prior. I will update the OP