Best Peak: Gretzky vs Lemieux vs Orr

[TheStatican]

Insanely detailed and impressive dive here as always. Not everyone may come away convinced on these things but your effort is truly incredible and commendable. Have to give you credit. Question though. The 14 extra games where WG’s pace drops is where my mind goes. What about if you take Gretzky’s 3 ppg first 57 games and where Lemieux’s ppg peaked this year (after game 58)? Or you can just take his full 60 game sample. Just curious about that because longer seasons cause things to dip.

Thank you and sure, that's a valid question. I did also look into Gretzky's first 60 games(175 pts) and here's how they compared minute by minute:

Updated*
In addition to the 24 full games he missed, Lemieux also missed about 2 additional games worth of ice time when you include the all the games he left early in 1992-93 all of which is very clearly documented here;

A full accounting of Lemieux's missed partial games

It's well know that Mario Lemieux missed a lot of games over the course of his career due to injuries and illness, in total he missed almost exactly 1/3rd of all possible games he could have played in - 915 of 1382 and this doesn't included the seasons he skipped entirely. What is less well know...

forums.hfboards.com

This is not some "hypothetical" woulda, coulda, shoulda" He literally scored 160 points in about 58 games worth of play time. Though I also listed Gretz totals in 60 games in brackets for the record.

Min​	WG '84​	ML '93​
1​	1​	3​
2​	3​	7​
3​	4​	9​
4​	5​	14​
5​	5​	18​
6​	6​	20​
7​	8​	21​
8​	13​	24​
9​	14​	25​
10​	18​	27​
11​	22​	29​
12​	25​	30​
13​	25​	32​
14​	28​	33​
15​	30​	36​
16​	33​	38​
17​	37​	41​
18​	39​	45​
19​	44​	47​
20​	51​	51​	end of 1st period
21​	56​	53​
22​	59​	57​
23​	62 (64)​	59​
24​	64 (66)​	64​
25​	69 (71)​	65​
26​	70 (72)​	68​
27​	76 (76)​	72​
28​	78 (80)​	75​
29​	80 (82)​	78​
30​	81 (83)​	82​	game half way point
31​	83 (85)​	82​
32​	87 (89)​	84​
33​	91 (93)​	88​
34​	95 (97)​	95​
35​	98 (100)​	101​
36​	103 (105)​	104​
37​	110 (112)​	107​
38​	114 (116)​	110​
39​	115 (118)​	114​
40​	116 (119)​	119​	end of 2nd period
41​	117 (120)​	120​
42​	121 (124)​	122​
43​	124 (127)​	125​
44​	124 (127)​	126​
45​	125 (128)​	127​
46​	128 (131)​	129​
47​	130 (133)​	131​
48​	132 (135)​	133​
49​	132 (135)​	134​
50​	132 (137)​	136​	halfway through 3rd
51​	138 (141)​	137​
52​	143 (146)​	140​
53​	144 (147)​	143​
54​	144 (147)​	144​
55​	146 (149)​	148​
56​	150 (153)​	149​
57​	152 (155)​	151​
58​	154 (158)​	151​
59​	159 (163)​	156​
60​	170 (174)​	158​
61​	​	​	overtime
62​	​	​	overtime
63​	​	159​	overtime
64​	171 (175)​	160​	overtime
65​	​	​	overtime

Charted:

There's also some additional OT game time to consider but the difference between the two was less than 5 minutes. The Oilers had 29 minutes and change with Gretz scoring 1 additional point while while the Pens had 33 minutes and change of OT time with Mario scoring 2 points. They're exactly even up to the end of the first then essentially more or less identical all the way down until the 57th minute with Lemieux actually having a slight edge at the end of the 2nd and half way through the third before Gretzky pulls away at the very end of games by scoring a huge amount of points in blow outs. The 10 or so point difference between them comes down to Gretzky padding his stats by racking up 16 points in the final 2 minutes of blow out games in 83-84 (equates to a 8.30 ppg).

It could possibly be Orr as well. Of course it's pretty much impossible to fairly compare stats compiled by a forward to a defensemen. But with what he brought defensively in addition to his offense I do acknowledge that he's absolutely a valid candidate for top peak all-time. But no one else is even in the discussion.

 

[WalterLundy]

Thank you and sure, that's a valid question. I did also look into Gretzky's first 60 games(175 pts) and here's how they compared minute by minute:

Min​	WG '84​	ML '93​
1​	1​	3​
2​	3​	7​
3​	4​	9​
4​	5​	14​
5​	5​	18​
6​	6​	20​
7​	8​	21​
8​	13​	24​
9​	14​	25​
10​	18​	27​
11​	22​	29​
12​	25​	30​
13​	25​	32​
14​	28​	33​
15​	30​	36​
16​	33​	38​
17​	37​	41​
18​	39​	45​
19​	44​	47​
20​	51​	51​	end of 1st period
21​	56​	53​
22​	59​	57​
23​	62 (64)​	59​
24​	64 (66)​	64​
25​	69 (71)​	65​
26​	70 (72)​	68​
27​	76 (76)​	72​
28​	78 (80)​	75​
29​	80 (82)​	78​
30​	81 (83)​	82​	game half way point
31​	83 (85)​	82​
32​	87 (89)​	84​
33​	91 (93)​	88​
34​	95 (97)​	95​
35​	98 (100)​	101​
36​	103 (105)​	104​
37​	110 (112)​	107​
38​	114 (116)​	110​
39​	116 (118)​	114​
40​	117 (119)​	119​	end of 2nd period
41​	118 (120)​	120​
42​	122 (124)​	122​
43​	125 (127)​	125​
44​	125 (127)​	126​
45​	126 (128)​	127​
46​	129 (131)​	129​
47​	131 (133)​	131​
48​	133 (135)​	133​
49​	133 (135)​	134​
50​	135 (137)​	136​	halfway through 3rd
51​	139 (141)​	137​
52​	144 (146)​	140​
53​	145 (147)​	143​
54​	145 (147)​	144​
55​	147 (149)​	148​
56​	151 (153)​	149​
57​	153 (155)​	151​
58​	156 (158)​	151​
59​	161 (163)​	156​
60​	172 (174)​	158​
61​	​	​	overtime
62​	​	​	overtime
63​	​	159​	overtime
64​	173 (175)​	160​	overtime
65​	​	​	overtime

The first number is Gretzky's totals up to the end of the first period in his 60th game, which I think is fair considering Lemieux was only actually available for 59 games and one period, but I still listed his totals for the full 60 in brackets as well. They played almost the same amount of OT minutes, 29 and change for Gretz, 33 and change for Mario but that small difference is made up by him missing around the last 5 of a game against the Rags before the Boston game he left early.

They're exactly even up to the end of the first then essentially more or less identical all the way down until the 55th minute here, before Gretz pulls away at the end but sooner. But again nearly all of that difference is Gretzky going at it hard late into games increasing his scoring rates, most of his blowout points came in his first 60.

Chart form:
View attachment 767788


It could possibly be Orr as well. Of course it's pretty much impossible to fairly compare stats compiled by a forward to a defensemen. But with what he brought defensively in addition to his offense I do acknowledge that he's absolutely a valid candidate.

Much appreciated.

 

[TropicOfNoReturn]

The fact that Orr was essentially done by the time he was 26 (for reference, Adam Fox turns 26 this year) means he has an impossible uphill battle when it comes to career accomplishments vs Gretzky.

But for one season?

Yes Gretz had 70 odd more points in his top seasons versus Orr on 1971, but that +124 blows anything Gretz did out of the water and points to Orr’s insane two way impact.

My thoughts exactly, and why I voted Orr.

 

[Voight]

Gretzky doesn't break 175 between Brown and Errey.

He put up 164 points playing with Brett Callighen and Jari Kurri (who was a rookie, playing in North America for the first time).

There's also the 163 he scored in 1991 (as a past his prime/peak 30 year old), the year he had noted stars Tomas Sandstorm & Tony Granato as line mates.

 

[mobilus]

I'd call Gretzky's first eight seasons his peak, he tied for most points his rookie year, won the scoring title outright the next seven. I've added up his point total for those eight years, and added up the point total from the tie and the second place point getters :

Gretzky: 1,520 pts. — Tied/next place: 1,053 pts. (69% of Gretzky's scoring rate)

-------------------

I took Lemieux's first eight seasons, his point totals and the points of whoever he was tied with or was one place behind him. This is so he wasn't penalized for his 90-91 season where he only played 26 games. (Feel free to take any other eight season sequence, but there's more injury time interrupting.) :

Lemieux: 1,014 pts. — Tied/next place: 943 pts. (93% rate of Lemieux's scoring rate)

-------------------

I took Orr's eight Norris years as his peak (67-68 thru 74-75) and applied the next best defenseman's points :

Orr: 829 pts. — Tied/next place: 478 pts. (58% of Orr's scoring rate)

-------------------

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Lemieux next question

 

[WalterLundy]

He put up 164 points playing with Brett Callighen and Jari Kurri (who was a rookie, playing in North America for the first time).

There's also the 163 he scored in 1991 (as a past his prime/peak 30 year old), the year he had noted stars Tomas Sandstorm & Tony Granato as line mates.

In the 1980-81 season his production was virtually the same as his rookie year for the first half of the season. The second half is where he showed he had already reached 200 point level player status as he had 91 points in his last 37 games (2.46 PPG or an 82 game pace of 202 even though seasons were 80 then). He would go on to average 2.45 ppg or a 201 per 82 game pace from 1980-81 to 1988-89. 9 seasons. He did this on an at the time poor expansion team at 19-20 years old. His next closest teammate was at 75 points which is a teammate dominance ratio that is greater than any I’ve personally seen while setting the then single season record for points. When you look at how he closed out 80-81 you can see that 81-82 was just an extension of this already reached level.



In 1990-91 his first 41 games he had 1.85 PPG but the way in which he closed out that season was also quite remarkable at 30 years of age for his last pre Suter elite season. He had 87 points in his last 37 games (2.35 PPG). A peak Gretzky (and Lemieux as well) would put up gaudy numbers with any supporting cast is the point obviously. To doubt either of these players with any cast (especially Gretzky) is insanity and I’ll never understand it.

 

[Voight]

Lemieux next question

What exactly is your argument for this statement? Personally, I don't see how as great as Mario was, his peak is better than Gretzky's.

 

[Video Nasty]

He put up 164 points playing with Brett Callighen and Jari Kurri (who was a rookie, playing in North America for the first time).

There's also the 163 he scored in 1991 (as a past his prime/peak 30 year old), the year he had noted stars Tomas Sandstorm & Tony Granato as line mates.

You can’t convince people who don’t want to be convinced.

We’re dealing with truly sick people when they can look at Gretzky leading his closest teammate by a minimum of 73 points and a peak of 107 points, every year over the course of 7 consecutive seasons, often having more points than the #2 and #3 scorers on his team combined, and think that he could only post the numbers he did due to said teammates.

He also had another 72 point win at the age of 30, before he transformed overnight due to the Suter hit.

 

[Voight]

You can’t convince people who don’t want to be convinced.

We’re dealing with truly sick people when they can look at Gretzky leading his closest teammate by a minimum of 73 points and a peak of 107 points, every year over the course of 7 consecutive seasons, often having more points than the #2 and #3 scorers on his team, and think that he could only post the numbers he did due to said teammates.

He also had another 72 point win at the age of 30, before he transformed overnight due to the Suter hit.

Not to mention scoring 200 points four times in five seasons. No other player in history has a 200 point season, and even if Pens homers wanna give Lemieux one because he scored 199, Gretzky still has three more.

In the 1980-81 season his production was virtually the same as his rookie year for the first half of the season. The second half is where he showed he had already reached 200 point level player status as he had 91 points in his last 37 games (2.46 PPG or an 82 game pace of 202 even though seasons were 80 then). He would go on to average 2.45 ppg or a 201 per 82 game pace from 1980-81 to 1988-89. 9 seasons. He did this on an at the time poor expansion team at 19-20 years old. His next closest teammate was at 75 points which is a teammate dominance ratio that is greater than any I’ve personally seen while setting the then single season record for points. When you look at how he closed out 80-81 you can see that 81-82 was just an extension of this already reached level.



In 1990-91 his first 41 games he had 1.85 PPG but the way in which he closed out that season was also quite remarkable at 30 years of age for his last pre Suter elite season. He had 87 points in his last 37 games (2.35 PPG). A peak Gretzky (and Lemieux as well) would put up gaudy numbers with any supporting cast is the point obviously. To doubt either of these players with any cast (especially Gretzky) is insanity and I’ll never understand it.

It's refreshing seeing a Penguins fan go to bat for Gretzky.

 

[WalterLundy]

Not to mention scoring 200 points four times in five seasons. No other player in history has a 200 point season, and even if Pens homers wanna give Lemieux one because he scored 199, Gretzky still has three more.



It's refreshing seeing a Penguins fan go to bat for Gretzky.

I started watching hockey in time to see both of their careers unfold in their entirety (sadly just missed Orr) and I have always agreed with Gretzky being the best ever. Peak is the only area where it can be considered “close” if we are doing one season or so but even then it is Gretzky. He has him for peak, prime, career and even sample sizes. Lemieux is definitely the closest player I’ve seen to him though as virtually all would agree unless they saw Orr play.



As I’ve written in other posts of mine I actually know Mario from youth hockey in Pittsburgh and I have been a season ticket holder for the penguins for a long time. I wouldn’t just say this I just have to be objective and it’s Gretzky.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

What exactly is your argument for this statement? Personally, I don't see how as great as Mario was, his peak is better than Gretzky's.

I've layed my foundation on my opinion several times over the years. It's always met with the woulda,shoulda,coulda response. No point in further elaborating

 

[Voight]

I've layed my foundation on my opinion several times over the years. It's always met with the woulda,shoulda,coulda response. No point in further elaborating

The foundation:

 

[bert]

While Gretzky is the best player he had the least dominant peak.

 

[Squiffy]

While Gretzky is the best player he had the least dominant peak.

@bert, respectively, really? We've both been around here a long time, you're a good poster that I recognize, but come on?

I'll listen to arguments about Orr, and to some extent Lemieux, but nobody ever lapped the field like Gretz. His peak compared to peers was the likes of which never seen. I'll listen but I don't understand frankly.

 

[norrisnick]

While Gretzky is the best player he had the least dominant peak.

From '81-'82 through '85-'86 if you pretend the 2nd leading scorer in the league was a singular player, Gretzky would have outscored them 1036 to 673.

 

[Squiffy]

From '81-'82 through '85-'86 if you pretend the 2nd leading scorer in the league was a singular player, Gretzky would have outscored them 1036 to 673.

Statsny?

 

[authentic]

Statsny?

I think Bossy

 

[norrisnick]

Statsny?

He was the 2nd highest scorer of that span, but over those 5 seasons there was a different #2 scorer every year. Bossy, Stastny, Coffey, Kurri, and Lemieux. I added their totals together to create the imaginary #2 scorer over that span. Stastny was tops with 623. 50 fewer points than the imaginary #2.

 

[Squiffy]

I think Bossy

Good guess too.

He was the 2nd highest scorer of that span, but over those 5 seasons there was a different #2 scorer every year. Bossy, Stastny, Coffey, Kurri, and Lemieux. I added their totals together to create the imaginary #2 scorer over that span. Stastny was tops with 623. 50 fewer points than the imaginary #2.

Stastny #2 in total points in 1980's. Criminally overlooked.

Coffey and Kurri going off the charts in the back half of that period to skew the average?