Best Peak: Gretzky vs Lemieux vs Orr

[North Cole]

Somewhat of a disingenuous take when you look at the competition Lemieux dominated in 1992-93 and 1996. Was Gretzky going to be that much better than a peak Lafontaine, Selanne, Mogilny, Lindros, Sakic, Forsberg, Jagr, etc.? Those were faster and more skilled players than Gretzky faced which were mostly Canadians and also goalies and defense were better, this why Lemieux was not only arguably as good but possibly better.

Was he going to be that much better than those players? Yes.

It's a big strike against him that players he faced were mostly Canadians, yet in this makeshift list, 3/7 North American anyways and Selanne/Mogilny/Lafontaine (2 of whom are vaunted Euro's) all had one extreme outlier season that year. Says more about that year than it does about any of those players. Lindros and Forsberg were also career bandaids, I don't see why anyone would expect them to not get dominated by Gretzky.

 

[Mike C]

I guess Joe Thornton is better than Crosby then by your logic

By that logic, if a running back averages 3 yards per carry, give him the ball 4 times in a row for an endless supply of first downs

 

[Play]

By that logic, if a running back averages 3 yards per carry, give him the ball 4 times in a row for an endless supply of first downs

Hey wait no I didn’t mean it like that

 

[Voight]

Shame Lemieux's peak wasn't on a stacked team in a shitty Campbell conference playing teams that looked like the leftovers in an abortion clinic.

Took 4 pages for the "Gretzky had all star team mates and thats why he scored as much as he did!!11!1!" argument, I am impressed. Usually you find that on Page 1.

Gretzky doesn't break 175 between Brown and Errey.

Maybe, maybe not.

But he was 3rd in scoring at age 37 playing with Kovalev & Niklas Sundstrom so I'd put the money on him doing just fine in his prime with Brown & Errey.

 

[Voight]

Nope. But if Malkin did it that's a different story

No but seriously, in a higher scoring year with basically no difference in games played its not what I consider an impressive 'win' and by that I mean margin of victory/how much better someone was than everyone else.

I don't know about you guys but here's my list of impressive Ross wins in the last 40 years:
'23 McDavid
'21 McDavid
'16 Kane
'14 Crosby
'12 Malkin
'99 Jagr
'93 Lemieux
'91 Gretzky
'89 Lemieux
And then Gretzky all those times in the 80's

It's something that should be considered very exclusive, because we actually have plenty of examples of impressive wins.


Was Gretzky winning a Ross at age 33 impressive? Sure. But thats not what I'm speaking about and he wasn't actually the best player in the world at that time. And if were just talking about winning a Ross and age then Martin St Louis of all people kills him and everyone else in that regard - he and not Gretzky nor Howe is actually the legendary Old Age Goat of all time.

Would you rank St Louis ahead of Gretzky in any regard? See, context matters here.

Just wondering why you dont have Kucherov? Until last year it was the highest total of the 21st century and he beat out McDavid which is no small task.

 

[bobholly39]

Nope. But if Malkin did it that's a different story

No but seriously, in a higher scoring year with basically no difference in games played its not what I consider an impressive 'win' and by that I mean margin of victory/how much better someone was than everyone else.

I don't know about you guys but here's my list of impressive Ross wins in the last 40 years:
'23 McDavid
'21 McDavid
'16 Kane
'14 Crosby
'12 Malkin
'99 Jagr
'93 Lemieux
'91 Gretzky
'89 Lemieux
And then Gretzky all those times in the 80's

It's something that should be considered very exclusive, because we actually have plenty of examples of impressive wins.


Was Gretzky winning a Ross at age 33 impressive? Sure. But thats not what I'm speaking about and he wasn't actually the best player in the world at that time. And if were just talking about winning a Ross and age then Martin St Louis of all people kills him and everyone else in that regard - he and not Gretzky nor Howe is actually the legendary Old Age Goat of all time.

Would you rank St Louis ahead of Gretzky in any regard? See, context matters here.

Impressive how?

Because Sidney Crosby in 2013-2014 is a fantastic player, and he's the clear best player in the world at that time, and it's a pretty good Ross win but.....from an all-time perspective, not really. There was very weak competition in 2013-2014, and so his gap over #2 or whoever else is bigger as a result.

Kucherov in 2018-2019 is a better season than Crosby in 2013-2014 in my opinion, for example.

So - it depends how you define "impressive Ross".

Kane in 2016 is similar to Crosby in 2014 in my book, also not that great in an all-time sense. At first glance, those are the 2 that stick out in that list of years you listed as the clear bottom 2, with Malkin probably #3, though I'd be more ok with labeling that one "impressive".

 

[Nico Cauzuki]

Mario

 

[kevsh]

Wayne for his skill obviously but also because he was ultra-competitive.

Not so overtly, publicly (or famously) as Michael Jordan maybe but he was intense. Not saying the other two weren't but I'll take the uber-elite talent who pushes himself to be the best not just for personal gain and glory but because he's singularly focused on winning.

Not all stars have that. Crosby definitely does, not so sure about a few other current stars. Gretzky had it.

 

[Blue and Green]

It's always entertaining to read the "Gretzky only racked up points because of his outstanding teammates" stuff, which is probably the stupidest argument ever made in hockey debate annals.

Second season: 164 points, more than twice as many points as his highest scoring teammate (Kurri, 75) while only one Oiler barely managed to exceed half of Gretzky's points per game rate (Gretzky 2.05, Brett Callighen 1.09).

Third season: 212 points, more than doubling any of his teammates in both total points and points per game.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Plus, Gretzky outscored his teammates by wider margins than Lemieux did.

If it's true that Gretzky had better teammates, isn't it really impressive that he was able to outscore them by wider margins than Lemieux was able to, against weaker teammates?

 

[TheStatican]

Just wondering why you dont have Kucherov? Until last year it was the highest total of the 21st century and he beat out McDavid which is no small task.

Impressive how?

Because Sidney Crosby in 2013-2014 is a fantastic player, and he's the clear best player in the world at that time, and it's a pretty good Ross win but.....from an all-time perspective, not really. There was very weak competition in 2013-2014, and so his gap over #2 or whoever else is bigger as a result.

Kucherov in 2018-2019 is a better season than Crosby in 2013-2014 in my opinion, for example.

So - it depends how you define "impressive Ross".

I wasn't speaking to how his season compares in a historical sense to other top seasons but rather how he compared to his peers in the scoring race within the same season. I'm not saying Crosby's '14 was more impressive than Kucherov's '19 - I'm simply speaking to the margin of his victory being much greater.

An "impressive Ross" is an all-time great season.
An "impressive Ross win" is a season in which a player was much better than his peers but not necessarily an all-time great season in a historical sense.

The seasons I listed are amongst the 7 highest by margin of victory in the last 35 years percentage wise and Crosby's '14 is actually the 3rd highest. There's a big gap down to the next one after those 7 - Draisaitl '20 at 13.4% and the other two I listed had smaller margins but were done in significantly less games played than the #2 ranked scorer.

Winner​	1st​	2nd​	Margin Over 2nd​	​
McDavid '21​	105​	84​	25.0%​	​
Gretzky '91​	163​	131​	24.4%​	​
Crosby '14​	104​	87​	19.54%​	​
McDavid '23​	153​	128​	19.53%​	​
Kane '16​	106​	89​	19.1%​	​
Jagr '99​	127​	107​	18.7%​	​
Lemieux '89​	199​	168​	18.5%​	​
Malkin '12​	109​	97​	12.4%​	while playing in 7 less games​
Lemieux '93​	160​	148​	8.1%​	while playing in 24 less games​

Compared to;

Kucherov '19​	128​	116​	10.3%​	but with the benefit of playing in 4 more games​
Gretzky '94​	130​	120​	8.3%​	​

 

[CokenoPepsi]

If Gretzky got to stay healthy and with the Oilers he gets to around 7 cups and well over 1000 goals.

It always Gretzky

 

[General Fanager]

Mario

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I wasn't speaking to how his season compares in a historical sense to other top seasons but rather how he compared to his peers in the scoring race within the same season. I'm not saying Crosby's '14 was more impressive than Kucherov's '19 - I'm simply speaking to the margin of his victory being much greater.

An "impressive Ross" is an all-time great season.
An "impressive Ross win" is a season in which a player was much better than his peers but not necessarily an all-time great season in a historical sense.

The seasons I listed are amongst the 7 highest by margin of victory in the last 35 years percentage wise and Crosby's '14 is actually the 3rd highest. There's a big gap down to the next one after those 7 - Draisaitl '20 at 13.4% and the other two I listed had smaller margins but were done in significantly less games played than the #2 ranked scorer.

Winner​	1st​	2nd​	Margin Over 2nd​	​
McDavid '21​	105​	84​	25.0%​	​
Gretzky '91​	163​	131​	24.4%​	​
Crosby '14​	104​	87​	19.54%​	​
McDavid '23​	153​	128​	19.53%​	​
Kane '16​	106​	89​	19.1%​	​
Jagr '99​	127​	107​	18.7%​	​
Lemieux '89​	199​	168​	18.5%​	​
Malkin '12​	109​	97​	12.4%​	while playing in 7 less games​
Lemieux '93​	160​	148​	8.1%​	while playing in 24 less games​

Compared to;

Kucherov '19​	128​	116​	10.3%​	but with the benefit of playing in 4 more games​
Gretzky '94​	130​	120​	8.3%​	​

Nice so statistically crosby 14 is more dominant than McDavid 23

 

[jigglysquishy]

Nice so statistically crosby 14 is more dominant than McDavid 23

It's clearly not.

If you expand the data set it shows a really big gap.

Vs	Crosby 13-14	McDavid 22-23
Vs2	19.5%	19.5%
Vs3	20.9%	35.4%
Vs4	23.8%	35.4%
Vs5	26.8%	37.8%
Vs6	30.0%	40.4%
Vs7	30.0%	40.4%
Vs8	31.6%	45.7%
Vs9	31.6%	47.1%
V10	31.6%	50.0%

Basically, the gap between McDavid and the 3rd highest scorer is the same as the gap between Crosby and the 12th or 13th highest scorer in 2013-14 (real number is 77 points, no one hit it on the number).

I prefer Vs5 as a metric (less noise than Vs2 or VsX) when dealing with a modern league.

Every Vs5 seasons post-1980 (excluding Gretzky and Lemieux) over 1.20

Player Season	Points	5th in Points	Vs5
McDavid 2020-21	105	66	1.59
McDavid 2022-23	153	111	1.38
Yzerman 1988-89	155	115	1.35
Jagr 1998-99	127	96	1.32
Malkin 2011-12	109	83	1.31
Nicholls 1988-89	150	115	1.30
Kane 2015-16	106	82	1.29
Jagr 1995-96	149	116	1.28
Kucherov 2018-19	128	100	1.28
Jagr 2000-01	121	95	1.27
Draisaitl 2020-21	84	66	1.27
Crosby 2013-14	104	82	1.27
Sakic 2000-01	118	95	1.24
Iginla 2001-02	96	79	1.22
Thornton 2005-06	125	103	1.21
Malkin 2008-09	113	94	1.20

Of note, Gretzky had 13 years scoring a Vs5 over 1.20. Lemieux had 5

 

[Cup or Bust]

I personally do not think any player was ever better then 1993 Mario Lemieux.

 

[RJMA]

Gretzky. The answer is always Gretzky.

 

[TheStatican]

Plus, Gretzky outscored his teammates by wider margins than Lemieux did.

If it's true that Gretzky had better teammates, isn't it really impressive that he was able to outscore them by wider margins than Lemieux was able to, against weaker teammates?

This is not actually correct and even when comparing Gretzky's 81-82 season to Lemieux's 88-89 it only scratches the surface on the truth of the matter.

Here's how they compared to the next 5 highest scoring teammates when their teams weren't loaded with hall of fame level offensive talent. In their first breakout seasons when both were playing on weak teams there's essentially no difference here, pretty much identical down the board. Though for what it's worth its actually Mario who had a notably larger margin vs the next best scoring teammate here:

​	​	Gretzky​	​	​	Lemieux​	​
​	​	79-80​	​	​	85-86​	​
​	+Pts​	137​	%​	%​	141​	+Pts​
2nd in scoring​	43​	94​	46%​	70%​	83​	58​
3rd in scoring​	71​	66​	108%​	110%​	67​	74​
4th in scoring​	79​	58​	136%​	114%​	66​	75​
5th in scoring​	79​	58​	136%​	124%​	63​	78​
6th in scoring​	94​	43​	219%​	213%​	45​	96​
2 to 6 totals​	​	319​	43%​	43.5%	324​	​

If we compare their next season to be sure Gretzky has a big edge, but this is by an large because Lemieux missed close to 20 games. It should go without saying that he's not going to be able to outscore his teammates by the same margin as someone who played in all 80 games. Credit to Gretzky for staying healthy but the underlying point - that Lemieux wasn't capable of outscoring his teammates by the same margin is false.

A more suitable comparison between the two would then be to look at their first Art Ross winning season(s) - which imo is entirely fair considering the Penguins were worse for far longer than the Oilers were. With the talent they were blessed with on their roster it only took the Oilers 3 years to go from a bad team to a championship contender. The Penguins weren't so lucky and needed 6 years to get to the same point.

		Gretzky​			Lemieux​
​	​	80-81​	​	​	87-88​	​
	+Pts​	164​	%​	%​	168​	+Pts​
2nd in scoring	89​	75​	119%​	113%​	79​	89​
3rd in scoring	101​	63​	160%​	127%​	74​	94​
4th in scoring	104​	60​	173%​	151%​	67​	101​
5th in scoring	111​	53​	209%​	273%​	45​	123​
6th in scoring	111​	53​	209%​	282%​	44​	124​
2 to 6 totals	​	304​	53.9%​	54.4%	309​	​

The edge over the #2 scorer was identical, slight % edge to 99. Gretzky has a bit more of a margin over the #3 & 4 scorers but looking further down the lineup it's Lemieux who outscored this teammates by a greater amount and the numbers continue to diverge in Lemieux's favor the further you go down the line up.

Lastly here's how they compared when they both first hit their ultimate peak level:

​	​	Gretzky​	​	​	Lemieux​	​
​	​	81-82​	​	​	88-89​	​
​	+Pts​	212​	%​	%​	199​	+Pts​
2nd in scoring​	107​	105​	102%​	73%​	115​	84​
3rd in scoring​	123​	89​	138%​	76%​	113​	86​
4th in scoring​	124​	88​	141%​	112%​	94​	105​
5th in scoring​	126​	86​	147%​	243%​	58​	141​
6th in scoring​	138​	74​	186%​	306%​	49​	150​
2 to 6 totals​	​	442​	48.0%​	46.3%​	429​	​

Same pattern as before but more exaggerated, Gretzky's edge at the top of the lineup is greater but Lemieux has a larger and larger edge the deeper you go. The 5th and 6th(and 7th) ranked scores on the Oilers were point a game players while the Penguins had no real scoring depth beyond the top 4 and the gap between Lemieux and those outside the top 4 scorers on the team was monstrous.

Furthermore there is a VERY good reason why the number 2, 3 and 4 scorers on the Pens scored more than the number 2, 3 and 4 scorers on the Oilers. It was because of Lemieux Himself.

Here's the teammates that they scored the most points together with:

Now compare those same scorers when removing the points that they combined with Gretzky or Lemieux:

	Gretzky 81-82	Lemieux 88-89
	212 in 80	199 in 74
2nd in scoring	58 (Anderson)	45 (Brown)
3rd in scoring	43 (Coffey)	47 (Coffey)
4th in scoring	63 (Messier) L2 C	58 (Quinn) L2 C
5th in scoring	29 (Kurri)	13 (Errey)
6th in scoring	32 (Lumley)	28 (Cullen)
2 to 6 totals	225 / 94%	191 / 96%

Essentially the argument of Gretzky "outscoring his teammates more" when comparing these two years penalizes Lemieux for being responsible for raising the point totals of those specific teammates more, which of course is hardly a fair and equitable argument to make.

 

[TheStatican]

In any case an even more accurate measure of how much a players scoring stands out compared to the overall quality of their team would be comparing their point totals to the amount of goals each team scored
:

Gretzky	Gm	Team Goals	G	PT	G%	PT%
1979-80	79	300	51	137	17.0%	45.7%
1980-81	80	328	55	164	16.8%	50.0%
1981-82	80	417	92	212	22.1%	50.8%
1982-83	80	424	71	196	16.7%	46.2%
1983-84	74	427	87	205	20.4%	48.0%
1984-85	80	401	73	208	18.2%	51.9%
1985-86	80	426	52	215	12.2%	50.5%
1986-87	79	365	62	183	17.0%	50.1%
1987-88	64	305	40	149	13.1%	48.9%

Lemieux	Gm	Team Goals	G	PT	G%	PT%
1985-86	79	306	48	141	15.7%	46.1%
1986-87	63	243	54	107	22.2%	44.0%
1987-88	77	313	70	168	22.4%	53.7%
1988-89	76	336	85	199	25.3%	59.2%
1989-90	59	247	45	123	18.2%	49.8%
1991-92	64	289	44	131	15.2%	45.3%
1992-93	60	292	69	160	23.6%	54.8%
1995-96	70	331	69	161	20.8%	48.6%
1996-97	76	265	50	122	18.9%	46.0%
2000-01	43	168	35	76	20.8%	45.2%
2002-03	67	160	28	91	17.5%	56.9%

These numbers further corroborate Lemieux's edge compared to his teammates in the previously compared years:
79-80 vs 85-86
45.7% vs 46.1%

80-81 vs 87-88
50.0% vs 53.7%

81-82 vs 88-89
50.8% vs 59.2%

Lemieux was involved in a ridiculous 60% of his teams goals in 88-89, a number Gretzky never came close to approaching. In fact he has the top 3 and 4 of the top 5 highest percentages ever. Curiously enough the number 4 and 6 seasons both happened in 98-99 and belong to Selänne at 54.0 and Jagr at 52.7%.

Some might say, well yeah the Oilers were so chalked full of talent they couldn't help but blow teams out in games... but just who do you guys think was the one out there often running up the score on teams? None other than Gretzky himself.

And even in the 92-93 season when the Penguins were loaded with offensive i.e a situation equal to the mid 80's Oilers, Lemieux was still was involved in a higher percentage of points and responsible for a greater amount his teams total goals when playing the Gretzky's highest contribution rates.

 

[authentic]

In any case an even more accurate measure of how much a players scoring stands out compared to the overall quality of their team would be comparing their point totals to the amount of goals each team scored
:

Gretzky	Gm	Team Goals	G	PT	G%	PT%
1979-80	79	300	51	137	17.0%	45.7%
1980-81	80	328	55	164	16.8%	50.0%
1981-82	80	417	92	212	22.1%	50.8%
1982-83	80	424	71	196	16.7%	46.2%
1983-84	74	427	87	205	20.4%	48.0%
1984-85	80	401	73	208	18.2%	51.9%
1985-86	80	426	52	215	12.2%	50.5%
1986-87	79	365	62	183	17.0%	50.1%
1987-88	64	305	40	149	13.1%	48.9%

Lemieux	Gm	Team Goals	G	PT	G%	PT%
1985-86	79	306	48	141	15.7%	46.1%
1986-87	63	243	54	107	22.2%	44.0%
1987-88	77	313	70	168	22.4%	53.7%
1988-89	76	336	85	199	25.3%	59.2%
1989-90	59	247	45	123	18.2%	49.8%
1991-92	64	289	44	131	15.2%	45.3%
1992-93	60	292	69	160	23.6%	54.8%
1995-96	70	331	69	161	20.8%	48.6%
1996-97	76	265	50	122	18.9%	46.0%
2000-01	43	168	35	76	20.8%	45.2%
2002-03	67	160	28	91	17.5%	56.9%

These numbers further corroborate Lemieux's edge compared to his teammates in the previously compared years:
79-80 vs 85-86
45.7% vs 46.1%

80-81 vs 87-88
50.0% vs 53.7%

81-82 vs 88-89
50.8% vs 59.2%

Lemieux was involved in a ridiculous 60% of his teams goals in 88-89, a number Gretzky never came close to approaching. In fact he has the top 3 and 4 of the top 5 highest percentages ever. Curiously enough the number 4 and 6 seasons both happened in 98-99 and belong to Selänne at 54.0 and Jagr at 52.7%.

Some might say, well yeah the Oilers were so chalked full of talent they couldn't help but blow teams out in games... but just who do you guys think was the one out there often running up the score on teams? None other than Gretzky himself.

And even in the 92-93 season when the Penguins were loaded with offensive i.e a situation equal to the mid 80's Oilers, Lemieux was still was involved in a higher percentage of points and responsible for a greater amount his teams total goals when playing the Gretzky's highest contribution rates.

What do Gretzky’s seasons in L.A look like? I don’t know if it’s really this simple, that would mean Selanne, McDavid and Jagr all had seasons better than any of Gretzky’s?

 

[TheStatican]

What do Gretzky’s seasons in L.A look like?

Took a quick look, doesn't seem like any would have been above 50% but didn't go through the games he didn't play in.

I don’t know if it’s really this simple, that would mean Selanne, McDavid and Jagr all had seasons better than any of Gretzky’s?

To be sure wouldn't go that far, it's just one of many things to consider. Also Selanne, Jagr and Lemieux's '03 numbers came in really low scoring seasons so perhaps it's not an "apples to apples" comparison. But that's not an issue with Lemieux's earlier seasons.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Gretzky was in on 48.0% of Kings goals in 1991. 44.2% in 1994.

45.7% of Rangers goals in 1998.

 

[WalterLundy]

As a hardcore Penguin fan who has been attending games regularly since 1979 with admitted Yinzer bias it is Gretzky. Having seen both of their careers and peak seasons (and live at that) it is pretty clearly Gretzky. Peak Lemieux makes it semi-interesting as does Orr but it is easier to compare forwards and Wayne in 1984 can’t be topped. I’ll never forget seeing him at the civic arena in February of ‘84 with a 4 goal and 5 point game. Talk about a team desperately in need of Mario….

Beyond just seeing it all happen the guy was on pace for 250 points through 41 games played. That should be enough for anyone of any player/fan allegiance.

 

[Regal]

In any case an even more accurate measure of how much a players scoring stands out compared to the overall quality of their team would be comparing their point totals to the amount of goals each team scored
:

Gretzky	Gm	Team Goals	G	PT	G%	PT%
1979-80	79	300	51	137	17.0%	45.7%
1980-81	80	328	55	164	16.8%	50.0%
1981-82	80	417	92	212	22.1%	50.8%
1982-83	80	424	71	196	16.7%	46.2%
1983-84	74	427	87	205	20.4%	48.0%
1984-85	80	401	73	208	18.2%	51.9%
1985-86	80	426	52	215	12.2%	50.5%
1986-87	79	365	62	183	17.0%	50.1%
1987-88	64	305	40	149	13.1%	48.9%

Lemieux	Gm	Team Goals	G	PT	G%	PT%
1985-86	79	306	48	141	15.7%	46.1%
1986-87	63	243	54	107	22.2%	44.0%
1987-88	77	313	70	168	22.4%	53.7%
1988-89	76	336	85	199	25.3%	59.2%
1989-90	59	247	45	123	18.2%	49.8%
1991-92	64	289	44	131	15.2%	45.3%
1992-93	60	292	69	160	23.6%	54.8%
1995-96	70	331	69	161	20.8%	48.6%
1996-97	76	265	50	122	18.9%	46.0%
2000-01	43	168	35	76	20.8%	45.2%
2002-03	67	160	28	91	17.5%	56.9%

These numbers further corroborate Lemieux's edge compared to his teammates in the previously compared years:
79-80 vs 85-86
45.7% vs 46.1%

80-81 vs 87-88
50.0% vs 53.7%

81-82 vs 88-89
50.8% vs 59.2%

Lemieux was involved in a ridiculous 60% of his teams goals in 88-89, a number Gretzky never came close to approaching. In fact he has the top 3 and 4 of the top 5 highest percentages ever. Curiously enough the number 4 and 6 seasons both happened in 98-99 and belong to Selänne at 54.0 and Jagr at 52.7%.

Some might say, well yeah the Oilers were so chalked full of talent they couldn't help but blow teams out in games... but just who do you guys think was the one out there often running up the score on teams? None other than Gretzky himself.

And even in the 92-93 season when the Penguins were loaded with offensive i.e a situation equal to the mid 80's Oilers, Lemieux was still was involved in a higher percentage of points and responsible for a greater amount his teams total goals when playing the Gretzky's highest contribution rates.

I believe the numbers show Gretzky actually didn’t score that much in blowouts comparatively. Also, it’s not just about blowouts, but just offensive depth in general. The fact that the Oilers scored a bunch on lower lines has a largely minimal effect on Gretzky himself beyond some score effects. This trend will always appear when comparing star players on top heavy teams to those on deep teams and realistically I don’t think it offers much meaning

 

[My3Sons]

Both Gretzky and Lemieux were amazing and head and shoulders above their peers. Mario's career was impacted by his health much more than Gretzky's but to me it's a bit of preference. You can't lose with either guy. As old as I am I was too late to see prime Orr. I'm sure he was amazing as well.