Confirmed with Link: Berube out, Bannister in

[joe galiba]

we look prepared for the team we are facing, we look organized on the ice, and consistent in effort under Bannister, all things that were glaringly lacking under Berube over the last year

 

[Snubbed4Vezina]

Brind'Amour or Dean Evason

Brind'Amour 100%. Can you explain your take on Evason because I saw a guy that was thoroughly outcoached in a few playoff series. I certainly might be missing something.

 

[Snubbed4Vezina]

i don't mean to sound anti-bannister either. i think he has proven to be excellent choice as interim coach. and he might be right guy for permanent job, but i'm not close to ready to decide that. i do think in hindsight that army purposely kept him in springfield this offseason, rather than elevating him to replace mvr. i think he knew he that if (when?) this season went south he might want to axe berube, and he wanted to be able to bring him in clean without already being on coaching staff so he could serve as fresh voice and not be saddled with baggage of what led to berube firing.

and i also now think that when army said he didn't make move because of our record, he meant it. he knows as well as anyone that we aren't talented enough. my sense is that the impetus is that there was too much of a black cloud hovering over team, too much frustration had built up among chief and some key guys, and that team too often had tuned berube out. i think he reasoned that if we didn't have consistency from game to game it would make it much more difficult to both evaluate and develop our players. it would be harder for him to see what we needed, it would be harder for other teams to feel like they were getting valuable assets that they would want to pay up for, and that it would be harder to successfuly develop younger players if they weren't playing within a consistently hard-working, positive, and structured environment.

so i don't think bannister was hired to save our season, in terms of helping us make playoffs, i think he was hired to get more value out of the season, without regard to whether we make playoffs. so if i am basically right on this, it makes me more comfortable with the move. even though i still think berube deserved better.

Well stated!

 

[Brian39]

Is that true that if an NHL coach is relieved of his duties without cause and a new organization hires said coach, they inherit the contract from the previous employer? Or are you insinuating the previous contract is null and void once the Blues give Berube permission to seek employment and a hypothetical new contract is signed (because again, the coach was “relieved of his duties” and not fired since he had a guaranteed contract and wasn’t fired for cause). Can’t Berube get his money from both the Blues and the new team? I read that in the NFL, teams that fire coaches can use the new contract signed by a different org. as an offset against money owed by the former employer.

Just curious what the rules are in the current CBA in this regard.

NHL coaches do not have a union or a CBA with the league the way the players and the refs do. However, there is an NHL coach's association that has a formal partnership with the NHL. Any documents/agreements between the two organizations are private. So is every contract between a coach and the NHL team. Finally, a lot of the NHL's business rules/documents are kept private.

So everything I'm about to write comes from what has been reported through various members of the hockey media rather than from primary sources.

Whatever team hires Berube does not simply take on his new contract. They will negotiate a new contract with him. However, Berube is not entitled to receive the full salary from us and the full salary from the new team. If his new salary is less than what we were paying him, then we have to pay him the difference. If the new salary is equal to or greater, then we don't have to pay him anything.

We are paying him $3.5M per year through 2024/25. Let's say he gets hired at $3M per year this summer. We would have to pay him $500k. If he is hired for $4M, then we are off the hook completely. Friedman has repeatedly reported that there is a group within the NHL that reviews new coaching hires to ensure that the new team is paying fair market price to the coach. This is to avoid teams from hiring a coach for $1 to force the old team to pay out the entire remaining salary.

The exact mechanism of how this all happens is not available publicly and each individual contract is going to be a bit different. But the outcome as consistently reported is that the team who fired the coach gets significant salary relief when the coach gets a new job.

Now, coaching salaries are not very transparent. Most teams don't release the numbers and Capfriendly only has salary info for 13 active coaches. The NHL Coach's Association absolutely knows the numbers for all 32 teams and will share them with members to ensure their representation can effectively negotiate. But they are not public. What we do know is that a lot Torts, Laviolette, McLellan, Maurice, Cassidy, and DeBoer are all making more than Berube. Tocchet got $2.75M a year to join Vancouver, Bowness is getting $2.5M, Keefe is at $1.95M, Montgomery is at $2M, and Bednar's post-Cup extension that kicks in next year is $4.75M. Trotz was making $4M per with the Isles, Gallant is currently getting $3.5M from the Rangers to sit at home, and Cooper made $4M on his last deal with Tampa (his current salary is unknown).

Again, we don't have the complete market picture the way we do with players, but I think it is a safe bet from those numbers we do have that Berube will not be taking a large pay cut from his next employer. Coaches with a much worse resume are making $2M+, so his next job isn't going to see the Blues cutting him a check for $1.5M. Worst case, I think the Blues would only have to pay him about $1M (and that is if the market for him is softer than I expect). Barring a surprise run, Bannister should be coming in as one of the 10 lowest paid coaches in the league next year if we hire him, which means our coaching budget for 2024/25 should be well below what we'd have been paying Berube.

Maybe Berube decides to take a 1.5 year vacation if he doesn't get the perfect job. But I don't see it. He rode the bus in the AHL for 2 separate organizations to work his way up the coaching ranks. he spent half a decade coaching the Phantoms before getting his first head coach job with Philly then went back to the AHL in our organization. He has a big competitive fire inside him and I think that he will be eager to get back behind an NHL bench this summer (if not sooner).

 

[kimzey59]

Brind'Amour 100%. Can you explain your take on Evason because I saw a guy that was thoroughly outcoached in a few playoff series. I certainly might be missing something.

And he had a total of 3 offensive players: Kaprizov, Zuccarello and Fiala.
This is a team that's been relying on guys like Hartman, Eriksson-Ek(Kevin Hayes averages more points per game) and Freddy Gaudreau for top 6 production. And they don't have an Elite talent on defense either. Spurgeon has been their top D man for a while now and his career high is 43 points.
The lack of offensive talent that Evason had to work with would make Ken Hitchcock cringe.

Evason had that team playing well above their skill level. Yeah; they flopped in the PO's when their lack of skill finally caught up with them. But give Evason some actual skill and I think you'll be stunned at just how good of a coach he really is.

 

[Brian39]

I'd be shocked if Carle would take AHL job. I expect his next position is as an NHL head coach. And for all the reasons you describe, I think he could be a good one.

It depends what his personal timeline is like. He may want to go straight to the NHL, but who is giving him that opportunity? I don't see any competitive NHL team offering him a head coaching job for the next couple seasons. Go through the resumes of all the first time NHL coaches around the league. I can't find one without AHL experience. Cooper had to work his way through the AHL. So did Bednar. So did Keefe. So did Richardson, Carbery, Knoblauch, Tournigy, and Huska.

All the 'younger outsider' coaches had to get AHL head coaching experience before an NHL team would give them a job. And all those guys were noticeably older than Carle too.

Carle is 34 years old in his 6th year ever as a head coach at any level. He has never coached pros and has never coached a roster that wasn't more talented than its opponent in the large majority of its games. I think he has a really bright future, but I don't see any NHL team giving him an NHL head coaching job in the near future.

I think his only path to jump straight from the NCAA to an NHL head coaching job would be to spend several more seasons coaching DU. That might be what he wants to do, but he could probably get behind an NHL bench quicker if he makes the jump to AHL coaching this summer. If he wants to make the jump to the pros, he could do much worse than landing with an NHL organization who is looking for a coach to develop and connect with a skilled group of young players coming up through the AHL with an eye on eventually replacing the NHL head coach a few years down the line.

Honestly, our organizational situation next year would be pretty favorable for a young ex-college coach to step in to. Make him an offer that pays him in between your standard AHL and first time NHL coach and I would be fairly surprised if he gets something more appealing.

 

[Brian39]

I'm curious what coach you would be interested in if we move on from Bannister? I was always a huge Trots guy and then I found out he's a f***ing GM now so I'm out of coaching ideas unless it's Brindamour.

Of the currently available candidates, Jay Woodcroft is the only name that jumps out to me. I'm not giddy with excitement about him, but I think Edmonton's structure under him was much better than the overall public perception. I firmly believe that their bad start this season was 80% godawful goaltending and 20% McDavid playing through an injury. Their underlying metrics were all still very good and their PP was historic under him last season. Other than that, no one jumps out right now.

But you never know who will become available in the summer and I'm not going to pretend to have any real knowledge about the coaches in the AHL who are ready to take over an NHL team.

 

[Blueston]

It depends what his personal timeline is like. He may want to go straight to the NHL, but who is giving him that opportunity? I don't see any competitive NHL team offering him a head coaching job for the next couple seasons. Go through the resumes of all the first time NHL coaches around the league. I can't find one without AHL experience. Cooper had to work his way through the AHL. So did Bednar. So did Keefe. So did Richardson, Carbery, Knoblauch, Tournigy, and Huska.

All the 'younger outsider' coaches had to get AHL head coaching experience before an NHL team would give them a job. And all those guys were noticeably older than Carle too.

Carle is 34 years old in his 6th year ever as a head coach at any level. He has never coached pros and has never coached a roster that wasn't more talented than its opponent in the large majority of its games. I think he has a really bright future, but I don't see any NHL team giving him an NHL head coaching job in the near future.

I think his only path to jump straight from the NCAA to an NHL head coaching job would be to spend several more seasons coaching DU. That might be what he wants to do, but he could probably get behind an NHL bench quicker if he makes the jump to AHL coaching this summer. If he wants to make the jump to the pros, he could do much worse than landing with an NHL organization who is looking for a coach to develop and connect with a skilled group of young players coming up through the AHL with an eye on eventually replacing the NHL head coach a few years down the line.

Honestly, our organizational situation next year would be pretty favorable for a young ex-college coach to step in to. Make him an offer that pays him in between your standard AHL and first time NHL coach and I would be fairly surprised if he gets something more appealing.

Sorry, but I don’t think this is realistic. Montgomery, Quinn, hakstol all went straight from ncaa bench to nhl bench. Quinn has ncaa title and WJC gold now. It would basically be unprecedented in modern times for him to take AHL job. He may not get nhl job this season, or ever, but it is far, far more likely that if he leaves du on his own it’s to be nhl coach rather than AHL one.

 

[execwrite1]

It's Bannister's job to lose. He's got the inside track.

 

[Brian39]

Sorry, but I don’t think this is realistic. Montgomery, Quinn, hakstol all went straight from ncaa bench to nhl bench. Quinn has ncaa title and WJC gold now. It would basically be unprecedented in modern times for him to take AHL job. He may not get nhl job this season, or ever, but it is far, far more likely that if he leaves du on his own it’s to be nhl coach rather than AHL one.

Quinn was an AHL head coach for 3 years and an assistant NHL coach for a year before going to coach BU. He was in his 50s when he got his first NHL head coaching gig. He doesn't remotely help set a precedent that NCAA coaches don't take AHL jobs. He spent his time there.

Hakstol was a head coach at the NCAA level for 15 years before making the jump straight to his first NHL head coaching gig. He was in his late 40s. He was the first guy to make that jump without pro experience in modern times and he had a significantly longer track record as a head coach than Carle and he also had a few years of low level pro experience as a player.

Montgomery is the only other one. Prior to coaching, he had a 10+ year pro career as a player and about a decade of head coaching experience at the junior/NCAA level. He was in his late 40s when he got his first NHL coaching gig. I think we can all agree that a lengthy playing career is a career accelerant for coaches and front office guys. Every front office in the league places value on the experience gained by playing the pro game.

That's 2 guys in modern times who have made the jump from NCAA to NHL head coach without getting coaching experience at the pro level. Both were 15 years older than Carle with significantly more experience in the hockey world and actual experience in pro hockey. One had an extra decade of head coaching experience and the other had a lengthy playing career. I hardly think that establishes a precedent that NCAA coaches in their 30s are NHL or bust.

I honestly don't understand how 25+ coaches working their way up through the pro ranks is outweighed by 2 guys who didn't. Especially when these guys had an extra decade+ of experience in the game than the guy we're talking about. Martin St. Louis didn't establish the precedent that anyone can get an NHL head coaching job with no coaching experience outside of coaching their kids in youth hockey. Because the rest of his experience was extremely relevant. Hackstol and Montgomery both had significantly more experience than Carle at the time they made the jump.

Carle's potential pro career as a player was taken from him at a young age, but the fact of the matter is that he didn't ever experience anything close to pro hockey as a player and doesn't have lived experience to draw from regarding pro hockey. He's never experienced the grind of a pro season in any capacity.

 

[Shwabeal]

Sorry, but I don’t think this is realistic. Montgomery, Quinn, hakstol all went straight from ncaa bench to nhl bench. Quinn has ncaa title and WJC gold now. It would basically be unprecedented in modern times for him to take AHL job. He may not get nhl job this season, or ever, but it is far, far more likely that if he leaves du on his own it’s to be nhl coach rather than AHL one.

Montgomery coached in the NCAA and then USHL for 7 years before he became DU's head coach, then coached them to a Frozen Four appearance and a National Title the next year before he was hired by Dallas. He was also 49 when he was hired.

Quinn was a collegiate and AHL coach for 25 years before he became an NHL head coach. He was 51 when he was hired.

Hakstol was a USHL head coach and then college assistant for 8 years before being promoted to head coach at North Dakota. He then coached there for 11(!) years before becoming the Flyers coach. He was 47 when he got that first opportunity.

Carle spent 6 years as a USHL coach and then DU assistant before he took over for Montgomery and has been a head coach for 5 seasons. He never played hockey past his college career, while the other three all played professionally at some level (this does matter to a lot of GMs). He is currently 34 years old.

None of the three you listed are at all comparable, when they were hired as NHL head coaches, to Carle's current position.

Edit: Brian beat me to most of this...of course

 

[Blueston]

Quinn was an AHL head coach for 3 years and an assistant NHL coach for a year before going to coach BU. He was in his 50s when he got his first NHL head coaching gig. He doesn't remotely help set a precedent that NCAA coaches don't take AHL jobs. He spent his time there.

Hakstol was a head coach at the NCAA level for 15 years before making the jump straight to his first NHL head coaching gig. He was in his late 40s. He was the first guy to make that jump without pro experience in modern times and he had a significantly longer track record as a head coach than Carle and he also had a few years of low level pro experience as a player.

Montgomery is the only other one. Prior to coaching, he had a 10+ year pro career as a player and about a decade of head coaching experience at the junior/NCAA level. He was in his late 40s when he got his first NHL coaching gig. I think we can all agree that a lengthy playing career is a career accelerant for coaches and front office guys. Every front office in the league places value on the experience gained by playing the pro game.

That's 2 guys in modern times who have made the jump from NCAA to NHL head coach without getting coaching experience at the pro level. Both were 15 years older than Carle with significantly more experience in the hockey world and actual experience in pro hockey. One had an extra decade of head coaching experience and the other had a lengthy playing career. I hardly think that establishes a precedent that NCAA coaches in their 30s are NHL or bust.

I honestly don't understand how 25+ coaches working their way up through the pro ranks is outweighed by 2 guys who didn't. Especially when these guys had an extra decade+ of experience in the game than the guy we're talking about. Martin St. Louis didn't establish the precedent that anyone can get an NHL head coaching job with no coaching experience outside of coaching their kids in youth hockey. Because the rest of his experience was extremely relevant. Hackstol and Montgomery both had significantly more experience than Carle at the time they made the jump.

Carle's potential pro career as a player was taken from him at a young age, but the fact of the matter is that he didn't ever experience anything close to pro hockey as a player and doesn't have lived experience to draw from regarding pro hockey. He's never experienced the grind of a pro season in any capacity.

While what you describe may make teams hesitant to hire him, there is still nothing to suggest that successful coach of Carle stature would leave a top college job to go coach in minors. Ultimately, I guess we shall see whether he decides to do so.

 

[Davimir Tarablad]

The way they were playing at the end under Berube might have been close. And they probably would trade Buch too.

The team currently holding the 5th pick has the same number of wins as we did under Berube this season. Could we have landed the 6th? Possibly, but outside of a lotto win, this roster is absolutely not going to land in the top 5

 

[Brian39]

While what you describe may make teams hesitant to hire him, there is still nothing to suggest that successful coach of Carle stature would leave a top college job to go coach in minors. Ultimately, I guess we shall see whether he decides to do so.

He very well might stay, especially if he doesn't want to coach in the NHL any time soon. Most AHL jobs would likely be a pay cut from the $400k he is making at DU. We could give him a raise.

My point is that if the Blues are suddenly spending $2M-$3M less than they were expecting to pay for an NHL coach next season, that would be the prime opportunity to give a guy a larger-than-usual AHL salary to entice Carle to come to the AHL. We could double his salary while still paying much less on our organization-wide coaching staff than we were expecting. And on top of the huge financial incentive, we can sell him on the fact that we are trying to stock the AHL team with a bunch of prospects over the next couple years and who knows whether Bannister is a long term solution.

He'd be going to an AHL opportunity practically tailored to be the next NHL coach if he develops talent well. That ticks a lot of boxes if he wants to be an NHL coach in his 30s instead of having to pay his dues until his 40s.

 

[Mike Liut]

The team currently holding the 5th pick has the same number of wins as we did under Berube this season. Could we have landed the 6th? Possibly, but outside of a lotto win, this roster is absolutely not going to land in the top 5

ok, 6th then. I would have been ok with that

 

[Xerloris]

I wanted for a long time now to explain in my words why Berube wasn't working out for us anymore and I finally got the words. Berube may not be an x's and o's coach but he is for sure one of the best motivational coaches I have seen but motivation relies on emotions and you can only ride emotions for so long before you burn out. Burn out is the best way to describe the way the team was looking.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

We go 3-7-0 in the next 10, that's going to change how we're looking at things.

Not 3-7-0, but we're 1-3-1 in the last 5 and increasingly showing signs that the "new coach" effect is wearing off.

 

[Mike Liut]

Not 3-7-0, but we're 1-3-1 in the last 5 and increasingly showing signs that the "new coach" effect is wearing off.

i think we were very fortunate in several of those wins. Vancouver, NYR, Carolina come to mind.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I still think this team is playing over its head, and "working hard" is only going to carry it for so long. Using the 95-point threshold, we have to go something like 25-15-4 the rest of the way. As it is, 7-3-0 has moved us from T-9th with Edmonton, a point out of a playoff spot (technically 10th because Edmonton had 2 games in hand on us), to .... T-8th with Edmonton, technically 9th because we lose the first tiebreak [and Edmonton still has 2 games in hand on us]. We go 3-7-0 in the next 10, that's going to change how we're looking at things.

A lot of this is still true. Yes, the team is working hard. Aside from a few games, you really can't question the effort guys have had under Bannister. "Working hard" is only getting so far, and I think we're seeing that.

 

[TheDizee]

It was the wrong move then and the wrong move now. It's just easier to fire a coach than the entire roster and DA let chief take the fall for his idiotic roster decisions