Player Discussion Auston Matthews Discussion

[TonsofPuppies]

You did say that he's playing at a $7M-$8M most nights. Here is a sample of centers who are currently making that this season:

B. Horvat = $8.5M
T. Hertl = $8.137M
R. Thomas = $8.125M
R. Johnansen = $8M
J. Norris = $7.95M
N. Suzuki = $7.875M
K. Hayes = $7.142M
D. Cozens = $7.1M
N. Kadri = $7M

Again I will state that Matthews needs to be better on most nights but even on his games where he isn't playing at his level, he's better than these guys.

Probably with his is that you've cherry picked several examples of players who are also vastly overpaid for what they offer - the Leafs aren't the only team overpaying guys, obviously. I counter with Tim Stutzle, Jack Hughes, Sebastian Aho, JT Miller, Mika Zibanejad and Elias Pettersson.

 

[Lemontree]

Probably with his is that you've cherry picked several examples of players who are also vastly overpaid for what they offer - the Leafs aren't the only team overpaying guys, obviously. I counter with Tim Stutzle, Jack Hughes, Sebastian Aho, JT Miller, Mika Zibanejad and Elias Pettersson.

Big fan of Jack Hughes and Stutzle is a very good young player. Show me where any of these guys have scored 60 goals, how about 50 goals? How many Stanley Cups do these guys have? None of them are "proven winners", same conversation as Matthews.

 

[Kurtz]

Since his Hart season, Matthews looks more and more like a guy who climbed the top of the mountain, looked around and enjoyed the view and been there done that. I don't detect any kind of burning desire to win above all, be better than the next guy, find the next gear, find a reason to be excellent again and again.

The true greats just keep coming at you doing the same thing over and over to the point of monotony. Look at Ovechkin. Same one track mind scoring and stats compiling every year for a decade and a half. You're bored of seeing it but he's not bored of doing it.

Matthews looks like he's settling into a mid career cruise control. You know there's so much more ability but I don't think there's the desire on his part to put in the work, stay focused and repeat and surpass. Very disappointing.

Ovechkin was notorious for floating and not playing any defense for a major part of his career....

 

[TonsofPuppies]

Big fan of Jack Hughes and Stutzle is a very good young player. Show me where any of these guys have scored 60 goals, how about 50 goals? How many Stanley Cups do these guys have? None of them are "proven winners", same conversation as Matthews.

Sorry, but I'm not buying the idea that Matthews is a consistent 50 goal scorer, let alone 60. I think he suffered some sort of career changing injury last season, which is why he doesn't have that lethal shot anymore. His one 60 goal season is going to be his career high as far as I can see it. Now ask yourself this... would you rather have what Tim Stutzle offers for the next 8 years at $8.35M or what Matthews offers for the next 4 years at $13.25? Is Matthews $5M better than Stutzle, even if he is a 60 goal scorer?

 

[Stephen]

Ovechkin was notorious for floating and not playing any defense for a major part of his career....

When I saw him live in Washington one time about a decade ago, Ovi parked himself on the sidewall on the far blueline did nothing all night but scored a hat trick en route to yet another 50 goal season. Then he scored 50 the next year and the one after that.

Matthews could do nothing and score and it would be preferable to being lifeless and not scoring.

 

[Kurtz]

When I saw him live in Washington one time about a decade ago, Ovi parked himself on the sidewall on the far blueline did nothing all night but scored a hat trick en route to yet another 50 goal season. Then he scored 50 the next year and the one after that.

Matthews could do nothing and score and it would be preferable to being lifeless and not scoring.

And Matthews gets you 40-60 goals/year while also playing selke-level defense...

I don't think Ovechkin is a great example of a max effort guy - he has never been that in his career other than for a brief spell under Trotz.

Crosby would be a better role-model.

 

[Lemontree]

Sorry, but I'm not buying the idea that Matthews is a consistent 50 goal scorer, let alone 60. I think he suffered some sort of career changing injury last season, which is why he doesn't have that lethal shot anymore. His one 60 goal season is going to be his career high as far as I can see it. Now ask yourself this... would you rather have what Tim Stutzle offers for the next 8 years at $8.35M or what Matthews offers for the next 4 years at $13.25? Is Matthews $5M better than Stutzle, even if he is a 60 goal scorer?

Auston Matthews gets to point to his goal scoring totals and his individual hardware when negotiating his contract, the other players don't have the same ammo when negotiating their contracts.

Matthews is paid more because he has accomplished more as a player (at the time of the contract signing) and is a better player. Its the same reason why Draistail isn't one of the top 5 paid players in the league (currently), he had his breakout after he signed his contract, he didn't have the ammo he has now when he negotiated his current contract.

 

[Stephen]

Sorry, but I'm not buying the idea that Matthews is a consistent 50 goal scorer, let alone 60. I think he suffered some sort of career changing injury last season, which is why he doesn't have that lethal shot anymore. His one 60 goal season is going to be his career high as far as I can see it. Now ask yourself this... would you rather have what Tim Stutzle offers for the next 8 years at $8.35M or what Matthews offers for the next 4 years at $13.25? Is Matthews $5M better than Stutzle, even if he is a 60 goal scorer?

I'm not buying the idea that Auston Matthews has suffered a career changing injury. At all. Matthews just looks allergic to consistently going to the higher traffic areas and attacking with speed to make a play because it's a pain in the butt to have a Dman draped on your shoulder and going full bore is hard work. I've always said all he needs to do to consistently reach those Draisaitl numbers is just stick out the hip, drop the shoulder and drive and just shoot in high volume.

Instead of that he's just curling back to the comfort of the perimeter and see if you can make a little skill play. He doesn't even like carrying the puck in transition like he's The Man. Drop pass here, defer to Mitch there. Why? A 6'3" 220 pound center chugging down center ice is the ultimate weapon we have. We never see it consistently. Too much work. Even when he was 'turning it on' tonight it was 2-3 wrap around attempts. Easy way out. Take the inside track to the net, no one's stopping you.

 

[Stephen]

And Matthews gets you 40-60 goals/year while also playing selke-level defense...

I don't think Ovechkin is a great example of a max effort guy - he has never been that in his career other than for a brief spell under Trotz.

Crosby would be a better role-model.

Selke level defense is a massive exaggeration. Good defense on a regular basis and a dogged backcheck on a regular basis, I'll give you that. Way better than McDavid and Draisaitl? Yep. Kopitar level, elite drive train talk when he was drafted? The kind of elite two way 200 foot commitment? Not even close man.

Ovi is also number 2 all-time in goal scoring, 4x 100 point seasons, 9x 50 goal seasons, 9x Rockets, 3x Harts and a Stanley Cup as the cherry on top. I don't really like Ovi at all, but the sheer come to work and score factor over 15 years is not the same animal. Matthews was only starting to reach those Ovi levels as a scorer and he's already off that trajectory.

 

[TonsofPuppies]

I'm not buying the idea that Auston Matthews has suffered a career changing injury. At all. Matthews just looks allergic to consistently going to the higher traffic areas and attacking with speed to make a play because it's a pain in the butt to have a Dman draped on your shoulder and going full bore is hard work. I've always said all he needs to do to consistently reach those Draisaitl numbers is just stick out the hip, drop the shoulder and drive and just shoot in high volume.

Instead of that he's just curling back to the comfort of the perimeter and see if you can make a little skill play. He doesn't even like carrying the puck in transition like he's The Man. Drop pass here, defer to Mitch there. Why? A 6'3" 220 pound center chugging down center ice is the ultimate weapon we have. We never see it consistently. Too much work. Even when he was 'turning it on' tonight it was 2-3 wrap around attempts. Easy way out. Take the inside track to the net, no one's stopping you.

I don't disagree with your critiques of his game - in his first couple seasons here, he was a bulldog on the puck - that is long gone. However, I do think his wrist injuries have severely downgraded the quality of his shot. He misses the net far more than he used to. He doesn't do that little curl and drag wrister anymore. Examples below:







Him losing his ability to shoot the puck like this means that he has to work harder to find new ways to score goals - which he is clearly allergic to, as you pointed out.

 

[authentic]

Since his Hart season, Matthews looks more and more like a guy who climbed the top of the mountain, looked around and enjoyed the view and been there done that. I don't detect any kind of burning desire to win above all, be better than the next guy, find the next gear, find a reason to be excellent again and again.

The true greats just keep coming at you doing the same thing over and over to the point of monotony. Look at Ovechkin. Same one track mind scoring and stats compiling every year for a decade and a half. You're bored of seeing it but he's not bored of doing it.

Matthews looks like he's settling into a mid career cruise control. You know there's so much more ability but I don't think there's the desire on his part to put in the work, stay focused and repeat and surpass. Very disappointing.

While I can see where you’re coming from keep in mind Matthews is scoring more than Ovechkin did at age 25 and 26 while also dealing with injuries that have taken away his shot and also while playing a great two-way game. I certainly hope he wakes up really soon though.

And Matthews gets you 40-60 goals/year while also playing selke-level defense...

I don't think Ovechkin is a great example of a max effort guy - he has never been that in his career other than for a brief spell under Trotz.

Crosby would be a better role-model.

He was max effort in his early years (or at least a very visibly high energy player who dominated shifts on a regular basis) but that effort went solely into offense and hitting

 

[Eternal Leaf]

I blame the management group.

They've been forcing this corpse of a core down our throat for the past 2-3 years when it's clear they don't have it. Now it's got to the point they can't even handle themselves in the regular season.

All of them are paid to be gamebreakers yet they continue to take games off. This includes Matthews.

 

[PromisedLand]

 

[Stephen]

I don't disagree with your critiques of his game - in his first couple seasons here, he was a bulldog on the puck - that is long gone. However, I do think his wrist injuries have severely downgraded the quality of his shot. He misses the net far more than he used to. He doesn't do that little curl and drag wrister anymore. Examples below:







Him losing his ability to shoot the puck like this means that he has to work harder to find new ways to score goals - which he is clearly allergic to, as you pointed out.

We’ll never really know but I tend to be skeptical of the destroyed wrist hypothesis. He’s made a bunch of unreal dangles showing full range of motion in the Chicago game and a bunch of times during the season but they didn’t go in. I don’t think that’s a guy hobbled by a career changing wrist issue.

But I think we agree he’s not the dog on a bone with the puck and not using the power in his game. I think that’s an effort issue and a commitment issue. He’s always at his worst when he starts mirroring soft Marner hockey. I see a player who knows what it takes to win a Hart and Rocket. He has the recipe to take that to the next level. And he’s just not giving us that on a nightly basis and going the opposite way.

 

[ORRFForever]

You did say that he's playing at a $7M-$8M most nights. Here is a sample of centers who are currently making that this season:

B. Horvat = $8.5M
T. Hertl = $8.137M
R. Thomas = $8.125M
R. Johnansen = $8M
J. Norris = $7.95M
N. Suzuki = $7.875M
K. Hayes = $7.142M
D. Cozens = $7.1M
N. Kadri = $7M

Again I will state that Matthews needs to be better on most nights but even on his games where he isn't playing at his level, he's better than these guys.

Good point but you probably cherry picked.

When I saw him live in Washington one time about a decade ago, Ovi parked himself on the sidewall on the far blueline did nothing all night but scored a hat trick en route to yet another 50 goal season. Then he scored 50 the next year and the one after that.

Matthews could do nothing and score and it would be preferable to being lifeless and not scoring.

I saw O.V. live in Washington as well. I saw the same thing.

 

[ORRFForever]

I'm not buying the idea that Auston Matthews has suffered a career changing injury. At all. Matthews just looks allergic to consistently going to the higher traffic areas and attacking with speed to make a play because it's a pain in the butt to have a Dman draped on your shoulder and going full bore is hard work. I've always said all he needs to do to consistently reach those Draisaitl numbers is just stick out the hip, drop the shoulder and drive and just shoot in high volume.

Instead of that he's just curling back to the comfort of the perimeter and see if you can make a little skill play. He doesn't even like carrying the puck in transition like he's The Man. Drop pass here, defer to Mitch there. Why? A 6'3" 220 pound center chugging down center ice is the ultimate weapon we have. We never see it consistently. Too much work. Even when he was 'turning it on' tonight it was 2-3 wrap around attempts. Easy way out. Take the inside track to the net, no one's stopping you.

Really well said.

**

Haven't we seen this before? It just feels like the same old, same old. We were promised if the top lines were kept together, they'd FINALLY break thru.

I can't imagine the Leafs NOT making the playoffs. But I also can't imagine them betting past the Rangers or Boston or someone who is tough.

 

[TMLife17]

I was told Tavares scoring in 2/11 games last post season was enough to make him a hero with a lucky spin around deflected fling towards the net.

This whole core minus Rielly and Willy are overpaid entitled p***yes.

And it’s very clear, almost certain, that Matthews doesn’t have his wrister anymore. It’s sad but true. Denial is the first stage and I understand if some of you are still there.

 

[Moonman]

View attachment 773397

With another embarrassing performance tonight, he has now been held pointless in 9 of 19 games this season. It's hilarious how no one seems to notice that outside of the hat trick performances near the beginning of the year, he is a complete non-factor in every second game he plays on average. Paying $13M+ for this level of play is beyond pathetic. Leafs management (and fans) will be very happy this contract is only 4 years long when it's all said and done.

He's not even as good as he was when he signed for 11.6

We screwed up

 

[thewave]

View attachment 773397

With another embarrassing performance tonight, he has now been held pointless in 9 of 19 games this season. It's hilarious how no one seems to notice that outside of the hat trick performances near the beginning of the year, he is a complete non-factor in every second game he plays on average. Paying $13M+ for this level of play is beyond pathetic. Leafs management (and fans) will be very happy this contract is only 4 years long when it's all said and done.

Sorry the most overpaid star is Mitch Marner and it;s not even close. 2nd assist Marner absolutely owns this title. Actually it's probably shared with JT to an extent too. They are both way overpaid. Matthews gets goals, lots of them.

 

[WillyC]

This year’s playoffs will tell the story of the next 5 years with Matthews… if we make the postseason

 

[Peasy]

Since his Hart season, Matthews looks more and more like a guy who climbed the top of the mountain, looked around and enjoyed the view and been there done that. I don't detect any kind of burning desire to win above all, be better than the next guy, find the next gear, find a reason to be excellent again and again.

The true greats just keep coming at you doing the same thing over and over to the point of monotony. Look at Ovechkin. Same one track mind scoring and stats compiling every year for a decade and a half. You're bored of seeing it but he's not bored of doing it.

Matthews looks like he's settling into a mid career cruise control. You know there's so much more ability but I don't think there's the desire on his part to put in the work, stay focused and repeat and surpass. Very disappointing.

Yup. I fear the same will happen after Willy gets paid (either with us or somewhere else). I'm sure Marner will pop off and try extra hard next year during the regular season but after that go back into cruise control.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Is Matthews overpaid?

Probably. Is Matthews the most overpaid "star" in the league? Probably not.

There's some real stinkers out there.

The problem fans have with Matthews isn't his production. It's his pay relative to that production. And the lack of postseason success.

This team needs more guys with a set of stones and less yellow bellies like Matthews going ragdoll limp when approached by an alpha male.

You can't coach that type of disgusting cowardly behaviour out of a player. If it happens again the fans should be running his chicken ass right out of town. It was the most pathetic display of pacifism I've ever seen in a hockey game.

The highest paid player in the league showing us all why he gets the big bucks.

 

[CreeksideStrangler]

I don't see Matthews game aging well.

Like a declining Ovi 10 years too early

 

[thewave]

I blame the management group.

They've been forcing this corpse of a core down our throat for the past 2-3 years when it's clear they don't have it. Now it's got to the point they can't even handle themselves in the regular season.

All of them are paid to be gamebreakers yet they continue to take games off. This includes Matthews.

I am going to go out on a limb and say its the ownership group. This crap has gone on ever since Larry T took over the Leafs from Stavro. He has been in the captains chair the whole time and the team has outcomes like Ballard.

Stavro good deep runs and honest chance to make it to the cup. LarryT not a damn thing in 20 years. Weird how that works.

 

[ToneDog]

Sorry the most overpaid star is Mitch Marner and it;s not even close. 2nd assist Marner absolutely owns this title. Actually it's probably shared with JT to an extent too. They are both way overpaid. Matthews gets goals, lots of them.

If you exclude players making under $1m, who is outperforming their cap hit ?

Nylander and Rielly (Jarnkrok maybe) IMO .