Athletic NHL99 Countdown

[Amazinmets73]

All I think it shows is wins/82 is a junk stat. Anyone with familiarity with these players can point that out.

The players with the highest W/82 in hockey history and generally regarded as the best in the sports history. How can we claim it's a junk stat?

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Orr's wins/82 is significantly higher than Lemieux's. And Lemieux had a relatively short career as well. Few games as an older player to lower his average.

:squints:, :blinks:, :puts on (cool) corrective lenses:, :blinks:, looks again...

Lemieux production-rate compared, unfavorably, to Orr's production-rate.
Next sentence- Lemieux receives the cautionary ticket for a relatively short career.

Humor? Unintentional irony?! Inside joke?!? []

 

[Amazinmets73]

:squints:, :blinks:, :puts on (cool) corrective lenses:, :blinks:, looks again...

Lemieux production-rate compared, unfavorably, to Orr's production-rate.
Next sentence- Lemieux receives the cautionary ticket for a relatively short career.

Humor? Unintentional irony?! Inside joke?!? []

Yes, obviously Orr had a very short career, hence the "as well" (i.e as well as Orr) in reference to Lemieux's career. My point was that Lemieux played few games past peak production age to lower his average (we all know Orr played 0.) If Lemieux had played 400 or so games from age 34 onwards, I would view his career W/82 quite differently. This would apply to a player such a Messier.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Lemieux's NHL career (including playoffs) was 1022 games. Orr's NHL career (including playoffs) was 731 games. If Lemieux's career was [Short], then Orr's career was [(.72) x Short]. There are those who think that Orr's brilliance makes up for nearly 300 less games played. I've staked a different position.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Lemieux played 745 games before the 1997 retirement.

Orr played 621 games before the 1976 season.

Lemieux had 10 seasons at 59 or more games. 6 seasons at 70 or more.

Orr had 8 seasons of 59 games or more. 5 seasons at 70 or more.

What does it mean? I dont know

 

[Midnight Judges]

Lemieux played 745 games before the 1997 retirement.

Orr played 621 games before the 1976 season.

Lemieux had 10 seasons at 59 or more games. 6 seasons at 70 or more.

Orr had 8 seasons of 59 games or more. 5 seasons at 70 or more.

What does it mean? I dont know

It means they both had substantial weaknesses on their resumes.

 

[Michael Farkas]

...but they aced the interview...

 

[Staniowski]

He did. He had Lemieux first and Gretzky fifth.

Bowman had Lemieux 4th on that list. I think he's ranked each of Howe, Orr and Lemieux at #1 at various times.

One gripe I have with this list is that playoffs are not considered at all, other than Cups/Smythes for the trophy points (which I don't think affect ranking much). Tough to put much weight in a list that basically omits postseason hockey.

Did they say they're not considering playoffs?

 

[Staniowski]

Orr has 879 voting points, which means he received one or more votes lower than #3.

 

[jigglysquishy]

1. Bobby Orr
2. Gordie Howe
3. Maurice Richard
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Wayne Gretzky
6. Doug Harvey
7. Eddie Shore
8. Howie Morenz
9. Jean Beliveau
10. Bobby Hull

Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players

From a special edition of Hockey Le Magazine. 9 other lists from longtime coaches, referees, and media members were also included. But I think Bowman's is the most interesting, considering his stature in the hockey world. 1. Bobby Orr 2. Gordie Howe 3. Maurice Richard 4. Mario Lemieux 5. Wayne...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Steven Toast]

The Athletic just released a podcast where some of the voters came on to discuss this list. Listened to in on my commute home. Few interesting points.

Link to Podcast

They all agree Draisaitl not being on the list was a big omission/mistake on their part.

One voter, Shayna Goldman, had Orr ranked #8. Lidstrom was her highest ranked dman. She cited a short career and a easy level of competition for ranking him at 8. This likely swung Lemieux into 2nd place.

One voter, Dom Loosechicken had Messier ranked #30. Citing an easier scoring environment boosting his numbers.

James Mirtle ranked Matthews #52, lowest among all voters.

All ballots will be released on their website soon.

 

[JackSlater]

Bowman had Lemieux 4th on that list. I think he's ranked each of Howe, Orr and Lemieux at #1 at various times.


Did they say they're not considering playoffs?

Whoops.

 

[The Macho King]

The Athletic just released a podcast where some of the voters came on to discuss this list. Listened to in on my commute home. Few interesting points.

Link to Podcast

They all agree Draisaitl not being on the list was a big omission/mistake on their part.

One voter, Shayna Goldman, had Orr ranked #8. Lidstrom was her highest ranked dman. She cited a short career and a easy level of competition for ranking him at 8. This likely swung Lemieux into 2nd place.

One voter, Dom Loosechicken had Messier ranked #30. Citing an easier scoring environment boosting his numbers.

James Mirtle ranked Matthews #52, lowest among all voters.

All ballots will be released on their website soon.

Just a terrible voting pool. Matthews that high (and above current players with far superior resumes) also sticks out like a sore thumb.

And Orr at 8.... Jesus.

 

[Amazinmets73]

Orr is probably the greatest hockey player to ever live. To have him 8th is appallingly bad.

 

[Hatfield]

The Athletic just released a podcast where some of the voters came on to discuss this list. Listened to in on my commute home. Few interesting points.

Link to Podcast

They all agree Draisaitl not being on the list was a big omission/mistake on their part.

One voter, Shayna Goldman, had Orr ranked #8. Lidstrom was her highest ranked dman. She cited a short career and a easy level of competition for ranking him at 8. This likely swung Lemieux into 2nd place.

One voter, Dom Loosechicken had Messier ranked #30. Citing an easier scoring environment boosting his numbers.

James Mirtle ranked Matthews #52, lowest among all voters.

All ballots will be released on their website soon.

The Goldman lady seems to have purposefully set her ranking to remove Orr from the #2 spot.

I’ve never heard of any hockey person ranking Orr outside the top 4, much less at #8.

Sure, he had a short career, but he managed to cram in a lot of Norrises, Harts, and Stanleys. Lemieux had a short career too!

 

[jigglysquishy]

 

[jigglysquishy]

Defensemen

Ranking	Player	HoH list	Difference
1	Bobby Orr	1	0
2	Nick Lidstrom	3	+1
3	Ray Bourque	2	-1
4	Paul Coffey	8	+4
5	Denis Potvin	4	-1
6	Larry Robinson	5	-1
7	Chris Chelios	6	-1
8	Brian Leetch	16	+8
9	Chris Pronger	9	0
10	Al MacInnis	11	+1
11	Scott Niedermayer	20	+9
12	Scott Stevens	10	-2
13	Victor Hedman	23	+10
14	Brad Park	7	-7
15	Borje Salming	12	-3
16	Zdeno Chara	13	-3
17	Erik Karlsson	17	0
18	Drew Doughty	18	0
19	Duncan Keith	14	-5
20	Serge Savard	19	-1
21	Rob Blake	25	+4
22	Shea Weber	24	+2
23	Mark Howe	15	-8
24	Sergei Zubov	29	+5
25	Guy Lapointe	21	-4
26	Kris Letang	32	+6

Centres

Ranking	Player	HoH list	Difference
1	Wayne Gretzky	1	0
2	Mario Lemieux	2	0
3	Sidney Crosby	3	0
4	Phil Esposito	6	+2
5	Joe Sakic	9	+4
6	Steve Yzerman	10	+4
7	Connor McDavid	21	+14
8	Mark Messier	4	-4
9	Marcel Dionne	13	+4
10	Evgeni Malkin	12	+2
11	Peter Forsberg	11	0
12	Bryan Trottier	8	-4
13	Bobby Clarke	7	-6
14	Joe Thornton	15	+1
15	Sergei Fedorov	14	-1
16	Eric Lindros	16	0
17	Ron Francis	19	+2
18	Pavel Datsyuk	20	+2
19	Patrice Bergeron	25	+6
20	Stan Mikita*	5	-15
21	Mike Modano	24	+3
22	Dale Hawerchuk	26	+4
23	Peter Stastny	18	-5
24	Mats Sundin	29	+5
25	Auston Matthews	41	+16
26	Jonathan Toews	27	+1
27	Doug Gilmour	17	-10
28	Gilbert Perreault	22	-6
29	Adam Oates	23	-6
30	Jean Ratelle	32	+2
31	Nathan MacKinnon	40	+9
32	Steven Stamkos	31	-1
33	Henrik Sedin	39	+6
34	Joe Nieuwendyk	42	+8
35	Darryl Sittler	36	+1
36	Denis Savard	33	-3
37	Pat LaFontaine	43	+6
38	Henrik Zetterberg	29	-9
39	Anze Kopitar	28	-11

Wingers

Ranking	Player	HoH list	Difference
1	Jaromir Jagr	1	0
2	Alex Ovechkin	2	0
3	Mike Bossy	4	+1
4	Guy Lafleur	3	-1
5	Brett Hull	7	+2
6	Teemu Selanne	5	-1
7	Jarome Iginla	10	+3
8	Pavel Bure	11	+3
9	Jari Kurri	6	-3
10	Luc Robitaille	16	+6
11	Patrick Kane	8	-3
12	Paul Kariya	12	0
13	Brendan Shanahan	21	+8
14	Martin St. Louis	9	-5
15	Mike Gartner	32	+17
16	Nikita Kucherov	18	+2
17	Daniel Sedin	34	+17
18	Marian Hossa	13	-6
19	Alexander Mogilny	29	+10
20	Mark Recchi	15	-5
21	Bob Gainey	25	+4
22	Johnny Bucyk	14	-8

Goalies

Ranking	Player	HoH list	Difference
1	Dominik Hasek	2	+1
2	Patrick Roy	1	-1
3	Martin Brodeur	3	0
4	Ken Dryden	4	0
5	Tony Esposito	7	+2
6	Bernie Parent	9	+3
7	Henrik Lundqvist	6	-1
8	Roberto Luongo	8	0
9	Grant Fuhr	10	+1
10	Andrei Vasilevskiy	23	+13
11	Ed Belfour	5	-6
12	Billy Smith	12	0
13	Carey Price	11	-2
14	Marc-Andre Fleury	24	+10

 

[Amazinmets73]

So... Orr's career per wins/82 is nearly 2 points higher, Mario has the highest peak season, and the athletic claims the #1 spot isn't up for debate?

Sounds credible

 

[ResilientBeast]

So... Orr's career per wins/82 is nearly 2 points higher, Mario has the highest peak season, and the athletic claims the #1 spot isn't up for debate?

Sounds credible

Well....Orr didn't play through his decline as his body was just flat done so no duh his /82 is higher

 

[Amazinmets73]

Well....Orr didn't play through his decline as his body was just flat done so no duh his /82 is higher

Yes, obviously. I have absolutely no problem with Gretzky being number one. My point of contention is to state there's no argument for other players is unfair.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Yes, obviously. I have absolutely no problem with Gretzky being number one. My point of contention is to complain there's no argument for other players is unfair.

I don't think unfair is really the right word. Based on their own BS metrics Lemieux and Orr compare favorably.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Top 25 seasons by wins/82

Rank	Player	Year	Wins/82	Games Missed
1	Mario Lemieux	1992-93	9.0	24
2	Wayne Gretzky	1983-84	8.5	6
3	Bobby Orr	1970-71	8.4	0
4	Sidney Crosby	2012-13	8.3	12
5	Mario Lemieux	1988-89	8.2	4
6	Bobby Orr	1975-76	8.0	70
7	Mario Lemieux	1995-96	7.9	12
8	Wayne Gretzky	1981-82	7.8	0
8	Wayne Gretzky	1984-85	7.8	0
8	Pavel Bure	1998-99	7.8	71
11	Sidney Crosby	2011-12	7.6	60
11	Bobby Orr	1974-75	7.6	0
13	Phil Esposito	1970-71	7.5	0
13	Bobby Orr	1971-72	7.5	2
15	Bobby Orr	1973-74	7.4	4
16	Bobby Orr	1969-70	7.2	0
16	Paul Kariya	1997-98	7.2	60
18	Wayne Gretzky	1982-83	7.1	0
19	Mario Lemieux	2000-01	7.0	39
19	Wayne Gretzky	1986-87	7.0	1
19	Auston Matthews	2021-22	7.0	9
22	Phil Esposito	1971-72	6.9	2
22	Phil Esposito	1973-74	6.9	0
22	Bobby Orr	1972-73	6.9	15
25	Jean Ratelle	1971-72	6.8	15
25	Alex Ovechkin	2009-10	6.8	10

 

[Amazinmets73]

I don't think unfair is really the right word. Based on their own BS metrics Lemieux and Orr compare favorably.

Exactly. Based on their own metrics (and other metrics I've found) Lemieux and Orr compare favorably, so how can they justify their position that Gretzky being #1 is undebateable?

Top 25 seasons by wins/82

Rank	Player	Year	Wins/82	Games Missed
1	Mario Lemieux	1992-93	9.0	24
2	Wayne Gretzky	1983-84	8.5	6
3	Bobby Orr	1970-71	8.4	0
4	Sidney Crosby	2012-13	8.3	12
5	Mario Lemieux	1988-89	8.2	4
6	Bobby Orr	1975-76	8.0	70
7	Mario Lemieux	1995-96	7.9	12
8	Wayne Gretzky	1981-82	7.8	0
8	Wayne Gretzky	1984-85	7.8	0
8	Pavel Bure	1998-99	7.8	71
11	Sidney Crosby	2011-12	7.6	60
11	Bobby Orr	1974-75	7.6	0
13	Phil Esposito	1970-71	7.5	0
13	Bobby Orr	1971-72	7.5	2
15	Bobby Orr	1973-74	7.4	4
16	Bobby Orr	1969-70	7.2	0
16	Paul Kariya	1997-98	7.2	60
18	Wayne Gretzky	1982-83	7.1	0
19	Mario Lemieux	2000-01	7.0	39
19	Wayne Gretzky	1986-87	7.0	1
19	Auston Matthews	2021-22	7.0	9
22	Phil Esposito	1971-72	6.9	2
22	Phil Esposito	1973-74	6.9	0
22	Bobby Orr	1972-73	6.9	15
25	Jean Ratelle	1971-72	6.8	15
25	Alex Ovechkin	2009-10	6.8	10

Orr's 70/71 season is clearly the best.

 

[Amazinmets73]

I don't think unfair is really the right word. Based on their own BS metrics Lemieux and Orr compare favorably.

Here's another "BS metric" that evaluates Orr's 70/71 season as the best in hockey history, and displays he peaked higher than Gretzky:

NHL & WHA Single Season Leaders and Records for Point Shares | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Bobby Orr (22.83), 2. Bobby Orr (21.47), 3. Roberto Luongo (20.85), 4. Bobby Orr (20.08), 5. Bernie Parent (19.94), 6. Wayne Gretzky (19.71), 7. Wayne Gretzky (19.64), 8. Wayne Gretzky (19.63), 9. Mario Lemieux (19.56), 10. Bobby Orr (19.53)

www.hockey-reference.com

You can disregard the metrics if you like, but if they're all reaching the same conclusion...

 

[jigglysquishy]

Here's another "BS metric" that evaluates Orr's 70/71 season as the best in hockey history, and displays he peaked higher than Gretzky:
...

Point Shares is widely widely criticized here. Like it's somehow even worse than the HR adjusted stats.

That Orr peaked at the same level (or higher) than Gretzky isn't exactly controversial here. It's that Orr was done at 28, while Gretzky played until 38.