Athletic NHL99 Countdown

[Vilica]

The Athletic recently started publishing a series on the Top 100 NHL players, asking 9 of their writers to submit lists of the top 100 post-expansion NHL players (requiring at least 400 games played post-expansion, thus ruling out Gordie Howe, among others). Being a list of NHL players, presumably they've not taken into account any international appearances, performances in the WHA, or any other national league (Soviet, Czech, Swedish, etc). They've revealed that Gretzky was a unanimous #1, and are counting down from 100. Their list is compiled from a simple tallying of each list, with no further voting as here. I was waiting for the first 10 names to be revealed, as that would allow for more discussion rather than starting it immediately. They're using this countdown to highlight the players in each article published, rather than trying to justify their placement on the list. They're revealing 6 players per week, counting down to the top players in February. I went through the forum's most recent top 200 list, and removed all pre-expansion players, and those without significant NHL careers, which left 94 names, with another dozen or so in the possible category. (One player in the possibles that has already been named is Johnny Bucyk. He wasn't a definite due to playing half his career prior to expansion, but it seems since his significant accomplishments occurred post-expansion, he made it in.) So far, the 10 players named include (with their place in the HoH list as well, UR indicating unranked):

Rank	Player	Pos	HoH Rank
100	Marc-Andre Fleury	G	UR
99	Kris Letang	D	UR
98	Guy Lapointe	D	135
97	Henrik Zetterberg	C	164
96	Johnny Bucyk	LW	160
95	Sergei Zubov	D	UR
94	Pat Lafontaine	C	UR
93	Mark Howe	D	95
92	Bob Gainey	LW	UR
91	Mark Recchi	RW	172
90	Shea Weber	D	156

Mark Howe seems a bit early, but again the voters did not consider his WHA years, purportedly. Then again, even with the finest research, the difference between a player ranked 100 and 150 isn't that big, and comes down to personal preference more than any real gap. You could rank the 5 defensemen named in any order and make an argument for most any specific order. Another trend I'm interested in following is the positional breakdown of the list. In the HoH Top 100 list, 32 centers, 25 wingers, 28 defensemen, and 15 goalies were named. With Fleury not making it on the top 200 list, there were 13 goalies named who primarily made their mark post-expansion, so that ratio seems like it will hold for the Athletic countdown.

The last bit of early speculation is which potential top 100 players fall out of the list due to the splitting of their careers, or other non-NHL play. You have the Russians (and Czech) of Fetisov, Makarov, Kasatonov, Nedomansky, and Larionov. None of them probably did enough during their NHL career to force their way on the list. The players who straddled expansion include Mikita, Henri Richard, Mahovlich, Keon, Ullman, as well as Jacques Laperriere and JC Tremblay. I think Mikita played long enough to have a shot at the list, but the others had too much of their career occur prior to expansion.

Click to read more...

 

[tarheelhockey]

I like that they're putting so much effort into it, with an article corresponding to each player. As always the list will be picked apart and criticized, but at least it's clear they're taking it seriously.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Who are the lead authors? They have some quality hockey content there.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Interestingly (and perhaps accidentally), if they strictly follow the 400 game minimum rule, it'll exclude Ken Dryden. (Though it would allow Alex Delvecchio, Tim Horton and Henri Richard to be eligible).

 

[tarheelhockey]

Who are the lead authors? They have some quality hockey content there.

The voters were: Eric Duhatschek, Dom Luszczyszyn, Shayna Goldman, Ian Mendes, Scott Wheeler, Sean Gentille, Michael Russo, Sean McIndoe and James Mirtle

So far the articles have been written by Russo (Fleury), Luszczyszyn (Letang), Duhatschek (Lapointe and Gainey), Max Bultman (Zetterberg), Steve Buckley (Bucyk), Saad Yousuf (Zubov), Tim Graham (LaFontaine), Charlie O'Connor (Howe), Josh Yohe (Recchi), Josh Cooper (Weber), and McIndoe (Mogilny).

 

[jigglysquishy]

The guys that have primes overlapping 1967 always get shafted in these discussions.

Sure, Howe and Beliveau don't really lose much, but Mikita and Hull lose half their primes.

Hull won't even make this list. He only had 389 NHL regular season games after expansion.

 

[JackSlater]

The writeups are not bad - fairly lengthy and detailed with some new interview material. I expect the ranking to be bad but that's fine.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Even post expansion, I have a hard time with MAF being anywhere near the Top 100.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Even post expansion, I have a hard time with MAF being anywhere near the Top 100.

Assuming a normal proportion of goalies, I guess it's a question of whether you consider him to be one of the 17 best goalies with 400+ GP post expansion?

I don't have the eligible players list in front of me, but I'm pretty sure the 2013 best-goalies list on HOH ended up with exactly 17 inductees who would be eligible for this new project. #17 was Mike Liut. Ones who just barely got cut off included Cheevers, Hextall, Richter, Vernon. I'm not sure where I'd put Fleury on such a list but "close" probably covers it.

 

[Hockey Stathead]

The Athletic recently started publishing a series on the Top 100 NHL players, asking 9 of their writers to submit lists of the top 100 post-expansion NHL players (requiring at least 400 games played post-expansion, thus ruling out Gordie Howe, among others). Being a list of NHL players, presumably they've not taken into account any international appearances, performances in the WHA, or any other national league (Soviet, Czech, Swedish, etc). They've revealed that Gretzky was a unanimous #1, and are counting down from 100. Their list is compiled from a simple tallying of each list, with no further voting as here. I was waiting for the first 10 names to be revealed, as that would allow for more discussion rather than starting it immediately. They're using this countdown to highlight the players in each article published, rather than trying to justify their placement on the list. They're revealing 6 players per week, counting down to the top players in February. I went through the forum's most recent top 200 list, and removed all pre-expansion players, and those without significant NHL careers, which left 94 names, with another dozen or so in the possible category. (One player in the possibles that has already been named is Johnny Bucyk. He wasn't a definite due to playing half his career prior to expansion, but it seems since his significant accomplishments occurred post-expansion, he made it in.) So far, the 10 players named include (with their place in the HoH list as well, UR indicating unranked):

Rank	Player	Pos	HoH Rank
100	Marc-Andre Fleury	G	UR
99	Kris Letang	D	UR
98	Guy Lapointe	D	135
97	Henrik Zetterberg	C	164
96	Johnny Bucyk	LW	160
95	Sergei Zubov	D	UR
94	Pat Lafontaine	C	UR
93	Mark Howe	D	95
92	Bob Gainey	LW	UR
91	Mark Recchi	RW	172
90	Shea Weber	D	156

Mark Howe seems a bit early, but again the voters did not consider his WHA years, purportedly. Then again, even with the finest research, the difference between a player ranked 100 and 150 isn't that big, and comes down to personal preference more than any real gap. You could rank the 5 defensemen named in any order and make an argument for most any specific order. Another trend I'm interested in following is the positional breakdown of the list. In the HoH Top 100 list, 32 centers, 25 wingers, 28 defensemen, and 15 goalies were named. With Fleury not making it on the top 200 list, there were 13 goalies named who primarily made their mark post-expansion, so that ratio seems like it will hold for the Athletic countdown.

The last bit of early speculation is which potential top 100 players fall out of the list due to the splitting of their careers, or other non-NHL play. You have the Russians (and Czech) of Fetisov, Makarov, Kasatonov, Nedomansky, and Larionov. None of them probably did enough during their NHL career to force their way on the list. The players who straddled expansion include Mikita, Henri Richard, Mahovlich, Keon, Ullman, as well as Jacques Laperriere and JC Tremblay. I think Mikita played long enough to have a shot at the list, but the others had too much of their career occur prior to expansion.

Great analysis. Like the point about position breakdown. 60% forwards, 30% defensemen, and 10% goalies would align with rosters and approximate salary allocations. For comparison, Hockey Hall of Fame (for players who played in NHL) is 61%, 25%, and 13%. NHL 100 Greatest Players from 2017 was 65%, 20%,15%. Defensemen tend to get underrepresented in things like this (at 42% for this project so far though).

Found it funny that Mogilny slotted in at #89 today like his jersey number.

It's a fun project and should be interesting to see how the rest of the list shakes out.

 

[Vilica]

Another 10 names released on the list:

Rank	Player	Pos	HoH Rank
89	Alexander Mogilny	RW	UR
88	Carey Price	G	185
87	Rob Blake	D	181
86	Billy Smith	G	186
85	Denis Savard	C	176
84	Serge Savard	D	119
83	Marian Hossa	RW	157
82	Darryl Sittler	C	UR
81	Ed Belfour	G	85
80	Joe Nieuwendyk	C	UR

I found it quite interesting that Price and Smith were ranked as close in the Athletic project as they were on here. That could be helpful for people trying to gauge the balance between regular season and postseason success. There's also the huge gap between Belfour at 85 and Price at 185, but that only includes 5 modern goaltenders (Lundqvist, T. Esposito, Parent, Luongo, and Fuhr - and 6 other goaltenders).

I also wonder who will be the highest ranked player that went unranked in the HoH top 200. Of non-active players, I think maybe the Sedins or Mike Gartner might reach the highest. You also have players like MacKinnon or Marchand that have significantly added to their legacy since voting started.

 

[hacksaw7]

Nieuwendyk was a good and sometimes very good player...but he doesn't belong in the top 100 on a list like this. I don't think we'll be seeing Theo Fleury on this list...but I'd take him over Nieuwendyk

 

[weaponomega]

That is a very generous ranking for Nieuwendyk. Honestly I think I'd take every player ranked below him ahead of him.

 

[MXD]

It's actually pretty decent so far, despite really, but really dropping it with Ed Belfour.

 

[MXD]

Weird and somewhat useless fact : Had Bernard Parent retired after the 1975 season, he'd be ineligible for this list.

 

[seventieslord]

It's not the worst list I've seen, not even close, really. There have been a few odd things so far - guys like Howe and Belfour showing up too soon, and guys like Nieuwendyk and Lafontaine showing up at all. But it's looking like most guys are coming up in the "range" a historian community like ours would expect them to.

If you take a look at our top-200 list and eliminate all ineligible players in order to have an apples-to-apples list, that means we are taking out:

- everyone born in 1931 or earlier, except Delvecchio,
- Bathgate (1932)
- Brewer, Hull and Tremblay (1932-33), whose careers had abnormal trajectories that included early retirement and WHA time
- all pre-1980s europeans: Starshinov, Firsov, Mikhailov, Holecek, Suchy, Nedomansky, Pospsil, Yakushev, Kharlamov, Maltsev, Martinec, Vasiliev, Petrov, Tretiak (1940-52 births)
- the "next generation" Soviet stars, who all had time in the NHL but are by no means top-100 NHL players: Fetisov, Makarov, Kasatonov, Krutov, Larionov (1958-1960 births)

Then we have to assume they are going to be consistent - they let Bucyk on the list because he met their criteria of 400 games, even though he is known as an original six era player; this should mean that we should see Delvecchio, Ullman, Richard, Mahovlich, Mikita, Keon, Ratelle, and Laperriere, who were all 27-36 when expension hit and who are mostly/partly associated with O6 hockey.

From Bucyk's ranking, it's impossible to discern whether they are considering entire careers for players deemed eligible, or just post-expansion work. Either is possible. We will know more based on whether Mikita shows up in a round or two.

I'm going to assume they are making an exception for Dryden, whose entire career was post-expansion, even if it wasn't 400 games.

That cuts off almost, but not quite, half of our list. Here are our top-101 post-expansion players by their criteria:

1​	1​	Wayne Gretzky	C	1961​	Canada	Brantford, Ontario
2​	3​	Bobby Orr	D	1948​	Canada	Parry Sound, Ontario
3​	4​	Mario Lemieux	C	1965​	Canada	Montreal, Quebec
4​	7​	Patrick Roy	G	1965​	Canada	Quebec City, Quebec
5​	10​	Ray Bourque	D	1960​	Canada	Saint-Laurent, Quebec
6​	12​	Sidney Crosby	C	1987​	Canada	Halifax, Nova Scotia
7​	13​	Dominik Hasek	G	1965​	Czech Republic	Pardubice, Czechoslovakia
8​	15​	Nicklas Lidstrom	D	1970​	Sweden	Krylbo, Sweden
9​	16​	Jaromir Jagr	RW	1972​	Czech Republic	Kladno, Czechoslovakia
10​	18​	Denis Potvin	D	1953​	Canada	Vanier, Ontario
11​	21​	Mark Messier	LW / C	1961​	Canada	Edmonton, Alberta
12​	22​	Alex Ovechkin	LW / RW	1985​	Russia	Moscow, Soviet Union
13​	23​	Guy Lafleur	RW	1951​	Canada	Thurso, Quebec
14​	24​	Stan Mikita	C	1940​	Canada	Sokolce, Slovak Republic
15​	27​	Phil Esposito	C	1942​	Canada	Sault Ste Marie, Ontario
16​	29​	Bobby Clarke	C	1949​	Canada	Flin Flon, Manitoba
17​	30​	Martin Brodeur	G	1972​	Canada	Montreal, Quebec
18​	31​	Bryan Trottier	C	1956​	Canada	Val Marie, Saskatchewan
19​	32​	Joe Sakic	C	1969​	Canada	Burnaby, British Columbia
20​	36​	Mike Bossy	RW	1957​	Canada	Montreal, Quebec
21​	37​	Larry Robinson	D	1951​	Canada	Winchester, Ontario
22​	40​	Steve Yzerman	C	1965​	Canada	Cranbrook, British Columbia
23​	41​	Chris Chelios	D	1962​	United States	Chicago, Illinois
24​	46​	Ken Dryden	G	1947​	Canada	Hamilton, Ontario
25​	47​	Brad Park	D	1948​	Canada	Toronto, Ontario
26​	48​	Paul Coffey	D	1961​	Canada	Weston, Ontario
27​	49​	Henri Richard	C	1936​	Canada	Montreal, Quebec
28​	51​	Peter Forsberg	C	1973​	Sweden	Ornskoldsvik, Sweden
29​	52​	Evgeni Malkin	C	1986​	Russia	Magnitogorsk, Soviet Union
30​	59​	Chris Pronger	D	1974​	Canada	Dryden, Ontario
31​	63​	Marcel Dionne	C	1951​	Canada	Drummondville, Quebec
32​	64​	Scott Stevens	D	1964​	Canada	Kitchener, Ontario
33​	67​	Al MacInnis	D	1963​	Canada	Inverness, Nova Scotia
34​	69​	Teemu Selanne	RW	1970​	Finland	Helsinki, Finland
35​	71​	Frank Mahovlich	LW	1938​	Canada	Timmins, Ontario
36​	76​	Jari Kurri	RW	1960​	Finland	Helsinki, Finland
37​	80​	Brett Hull	RW	1964​	United States	Belleville, Ontario
38​	84​	Borje Salming	D	1951​	Sweden	Kiruna, Sweden
39​	85​	Ed Belfour	G	1965​	Canada	Carman, Manitoba	81​
40​	88​	Sergei Fedorov	C	1969​	Russia	Pskov, Soviet Union
41​	89​	Zdeno Chara	D	1977​	Slovakia	Trencin, Czechoslovakia
42​	91​	Joe Thornton	C	1979​	Canada	St. Thomas, Ontario
43​	93​	Patrick Kane	RW	1988​	United States	Buffalo, New York
44​	94​	Duncan Keith	D	1983​	Canada	Winnipeg, Manitoba
45​	95​	Mark Howe	LW / D	1955​	United States	Detroit, Michigan	93​
46​	96​	Eric Lindros	C	1973​	Canada	London, Ontario
47​	97​	Brian Leetch	D	1968​	United States	Corpus Christi, Texas
48​	98​	Martin St. Louis	RW	1975​	Canada	Laval, Quebec
49​	99​	Dave Keon	C	1940​	Canada	Noranda, Quebec
50​	101​	Norm Ullman	C	1935​	Canada	Provost, Alberta
51​	103​	Jarome Iginla	RW	1977​	Canada	Edmonton, Alberta
52​	106​	Henrik Lundqvist	G	1982​	Sweden	Are, Sweden
53​	108​	Tony Esposito	G	1943​	Canada	Sault Ste Marie, Ontario
54​	109​	Erik Karlsson	D	1990​	Sweden	Landsbro, Sweden
55​	110​	Drew Doughty	D	1989​	Canada	London, Ontario
56​	112​	Doug Gilmour	C	1963​	Canada	Kingston, Ontario
57​	118​	Peter Stastny	C	1956​	Slovakia	Bratislava, Czechoslovakia
58​	119​	Serge Savard	D	1946​	Canada	Landrienne, Quebec	84​
59​	120​	Ron Francis	C	1963​	Canada	Sault Ste Marie, Ontario
60​	122​	Roberto Luongo	G	1979​	Canada	Montreal, Quebec
61​	124​	Bernie Parent	G	1945​	Canada	Montreal, Quebec
62​	126​	Alex Delvecchio	C / LW	1931​	Canada	Fort William, Ontario
63​	128​	Pavel Datsyuk	C	1978​	Russia	Sverdlovsk, Soviet Union
64​	129​	Pavel Bure	RW	1971​	Russia	Moscow, Soviet Union
65​	130​	Connor McDavid	C	1997​	Canada	Richmond Hill, Ontario
66​	132​	Gilbert Perreault	C	1950​	Canada	Victoriaville, Quebec
67​	133​	Scott Niedermayer	D	1973​	Canada	Edmonton, Alberta
68​	134​	Adam Oates	C	1962​	Canada	Weston, Ontario
69​	135​	Guy Lapointe	D	1948​	Canada	Montreal, Quebec	98​
70​	137​	Rod Langway	D	1957​	United States	Formosa, Taiwan
71​	141​	Mike Modano	C	1970​	United States	Livonia, Michigan
72​	142​	Patrice Bergeron	C	1985​	Canada	Ancienne-Lorette, Quebec
73​	146​	Victor Hedman	D	1990​	Sweden	Ornskoldsvik, Sweden
74​	147​	Paul Kariya	LW	1974​	Canada	Vancouver, British Columbia
75​	153​	Jacques Laperriere	D	1941​	Canada	Rouyn, Quebec
76​	154​	Dale Hawerchuk	C	1963​	Canada	Toronto, Ontario
77​	156​	Shea Weber	D	1985​	Canada	Sicamous, British Columbia	90​
78​	157​	Marian Hossa	RW	1979​	Slovakia	Stara Lubovna, Czechoslovakia	83​
79​	158​	Jonathan Toews	C	1988​	Canada	Winnipeg, Manitoba
80​	160​	Johnny Bucyk	LW	1935​	Canada	Edmonton, Alberta	96​
81​	161​	Anze Kopitar	C	1987​	Slovenia	Jesenice, Slovenia
82​	164​	Henrik Zetterberg	C/LW	1980​	Sweden	Njurunda, Sweden	97​
83​	166​	Mats Sundin	C	1971​	Sweden	Bromma, Sweden
84​	170​	Steven Stamkos	C	1990​	Canada	Markham, Ontario
85​	172​	Mark Recchi	RW	1968​	Canada	Kamloops, British Columbia	91​
86​	174​	Jean Ratelle	C	1940​	Canada	Lac St-Jean, Quebec
87​	175​	Luc Robitaille	LW	1966​	Canada	Montreal, Quebec
88​	176​	Denis Savard	C	1961​	Canada	Pointe Gatineau, Quebec	85​
89​	179​	Grant Fuhr	G	1962​	Canada	Spruce Grove, Alberta
90​	181​	Rob Blake	D	1969​	Canada	Simcoe, Ontario	87​
91​	183​	Michel Goulet	LW	1960​	Canada	Peribonka, Quebec
92​	185​	Carey Price	G	1987​	Canada	Anahim Lake, British Columbia	88​
93​	186​	Billy Smith	G	1950​	Canada	Perth, Ontario	86​
94​	187​	Nikita Kucherov	RW	1993​	Russia	Maykop, Russian Federation
95​	190​	Jacques Lemaire	C	1945​	Canada	LaSalle, Quebec
96​	191​	Curtis Joseph	G	1967​	Canada	Keswick, Ontario
97​	192​	Daniel Alfredsson	RW	1972​	Sweden	Gothenburg, Sweden
98​	194​	Patrik Elias	LW	1976​	Czech Republic	Trebic, Czechoslovakia
99​	195​	Brendan Shanahan	LW	1969​	Canada	Mimico, Ontario
100​	199​	Ryan Getzlaf	C	1985​	Canada	Regina, Saskatchewan
101​	200​	John LeClair	LW	1969​	United States	St. Albans, Vermont

As you can see from the rankings on the right, nothing is very egregious at the moment for the players already ranked. Surely Belfour and Howe were badly underrated, Serge Savard and Lapointe less so. The others are perfectly reasonable.

Of course, the presence of Fleury, Letang, Zubov, Lafontaine, Gainey, Mogilny, Sittler, Nieuwendyk, and (I think, obviously), Gartner, means there are at least 9 players from the above list who did not make their cut. If it's the bottom eight plus Goulet.... well, fine. I don't agree, but it's the very bottom players. anyway. If any of these players are in the next batch of ten, then they've overrated them by quite a bit (except Kucherov, who's added a lot since our list was made). The only one I can say with certainty they'll do that to, is Shanahan. No way he's missing a media-produced top-100.

And I'd laugh so hard at a list that had room for Fleury but not Curtis Joseph.

But there are lots of names left to mention and just because they're done the bottom 20 doesn't mean they're through adding marginal players. I would not rule out them surprising us with Marleau 77th or Andreychuk 59th, or Ciccarelli 55th or Housley 47th. And each one of those means one more better player not making it.

 

[seventieslord]

Our aggregate round 1 list is going to be fairly unreliable as a "beyond 200" list, being as beyond #180 or so, it's full of guys who didn't have a plurality of support. But based on our aggregate list, here are the players they've overrated the most so far...

First, these are our de facto #102 and on:

102. Cournoyer
103. Sittler
104. Barrasso
105. Murphy
106. Gilbert
107. Gainey
108. Vanbiesbrouck
109. Kovalchuk
110. T.Fleury
111. Vachon
112. Rask
113. Giacomin
114. Kiprusoff
115. Brind'Amour
116. Backstrom
117. H. Sedin
118. Neely
119. Mogilny
120. Giroux
121. Middleton
122. MacKinnon
123. Rinne
124. R.Suter
125. Wilson
126. Thomas
127. Carbonneau
128. Turgeon
(starting now, ranking based on number of ballots instead of how highly their minority support happened to rank them)
129. Gartner
130. Zubov
131. Benn
132. Roenick
133. B.Burns
134. Housley

that's everyone who got onto three or more ballots.

The bolded are "forgivable" as they were "close enough" to our list. The others: Lafontaine, Letang, Fleury and Nieuwendyk are the ones that had essentially zero support as top-220 players on our round 1 submissions (which is a de facto top~110 list by their criteria). I shudder to think of which four players ultimately miss the list in favour of these ones.

 

[seventieslord]

Basically, if you wanna have Sittler, Gainey, Mogilny and Zubov on the list, fine, I guess, but I hope it's at the expense of guys like Getzlaf, Elias, Alfredsson and Lemaire. That can at least be defended. If those guys are taking the place of, I dunno, Pavel Datsyuk, Rod Langway, Patrice Bergeron and Anze Kopitar... then re-evaluate your definition of greatness.

I know, I'm being pre-emptive. Let's see how the rest turns out.

 

[MXD]

Other nearlyavoided headscratcher : Hull missing 11 games to get to 400 (and would've gotten there had he been healthy in 69-70).

Basically, if you wanna have Sittler, Gainey, Mogilny and Zubov on the list, fine, I guess, but I hope it's at the expense of guys like Getzlaf, Elias, Alfredsson and Lemaire. That can at least be defended. If those guys are taking the place of, I dunno, Pavel Datsyuk, Rod Langway, Patrice Bergeron and Anze Kopitar... then re-evaluate your definition of greatness.

I know, I'm being pre-emptive. Let's see how the rest turns out.

...And then Cam Neely will make it in the next wave.

Though, frankly, a 2 X Norris missing would really surprise me (even if Langway's Norris aren't exactly the strongest Norris).

 

[tarheelhockey]

On lists like these, a Hall of Fame induction and multiple-of-100 statistical marks carry a lot of water. That will likely explain the guys who are heavily overrated.

 

[Vilica]

Then we have to assume they are going to be consistent - they let Bucyk on the list because he met their criteria of 400 games, even though he is known as an original six era player; this should mean that we should see Delvecchio, Ullman, Richard, Mahovlich, Mikita, Keon, Ratelle, and Laperriere, who were all 27-36 when expension hit and who are mostly/partly associated with O6 hockey.

I have a feeling most of these players are going to be the ones removed from the list for not doing enough post-expansion. Henri Richard won 4 Cups, but didn't break 55 points in a season after expansion. Mikita is going to be an interesting one, because he does have a Hart+Ross post-expansion, plus 845 games played, compared to his 550 games, 3 Ross and Hart pre-expansion. I left Ratelle on my list, because basically all of his significant seasons occurred post-expansion.

 

[Staniowski]

I have a feeling most of these players are going to be the ones removed from the list for not doing enough post-expansion. Henri Richard won 4 Cups, but didn't break 55 points in a season after expansion. Mikita is going to be an interesting one, because he does have a Hart+Ross post-expansion, plus 845 games played, compared to his 550 games, 3 Ross and Hart pre-expansion. I left Ratelle on my list, because basically all of his significant seasons occurred post-expansion.

Yes, most of those '60s guys won't be on the list, most likely. And some of the current guys - Matthews, Marchand, Draisaitl, MacKinnon - will be.

Even at their respective bests, Marchand is twice the player that Ullman was, and Ullman's best wasn't even post-Expansion.

And there's no chance guys like Delvecchio will be there.

 

[Vilica]

A newer addition today at 79 in Andrei Vasilevskiy, someone who received no votes in either the top 100 or top 200 project, but who likely would have that support now. In fact, he's the one young active goaltender that has accomplished enough already that a good second half of his career could see him break into the top 100 list. It's going to be interesting to see how he ages, given the load management surrounding goalies now. He's managed to lead the league in wins 5 times already, while only breaking 40 once. Part of that is shortened seasons, but no goalie has reached 40 wins since the 17-18 season. Teams want their backups to play 20-25 games now, not the 15-20 games they used to.

Also, given he's played less regular season games than Ken Dryden, that's good confirmation that the goalie games played requirement is less than the 400 for skaters, and Dryden's on the list.

 

[Vilica]

Rank	Player	Pos	HoH Rank
79	Andrei Vasilevskiy	G	UR
78	Duncan Keith	D	94
77	Henrik Sedin	C	UR
76	Daniel Sedin	LW	UR
75	Steven Stamkos	C	170
74	Nathan MacKinnon	C	UR
73	Drew Doughty	D	110
72	Nikita Kucherov	RW	187
71	Grant Fuhr	G	179
70	Jean Ratelle	C	174

Another 10 names down, and a whole bunch of active or recently active players in this bunch. I mentioned the interesting bits about Vasilevskiy above, and it seems the Sedins occupy this special status whereby neither of them quite have the resume, but collectively they really are a top 100 player, and voters treat them more as the collective than either individual accomplished. It might be a cool ATD experiment to institute a rule that whichever team drafts the first Sedin brother automatically gets the other one with their next pick (or an even later one), and see how that changes their draft position. It will be interesting to see where Erik Karlsson falls, given he and Doughty went back to back in the Top 200 list. Do the voters reward him for his higher peak, or ignore him due to his decline prior to this year.

There are 40ish players in front of the highest ranked person so far (Keith at 94), and 28 players between Keith and Kucherov (the highest and lowest ranked players), but I have a feeling more than a few of those 28 will be bumped for currently unranked players.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Mackinnon over Stamkos from an all time standpoint is so weird to me. Sure, he had the better Hart voting, but I take 60 goal Stamkos over any MacKinnon regular season. Plus the length of careers makes it a weird vote in 2022.

Keith and Doughty seem low given the criteria.