Speculation: Athanasiou Part 2

[Redder Winger]

Mistakes and lack of effort are two different reasons for benching a player.

You watch the game last night?
Did you see Larkin's awful, no-effort giveaways in his own end?
Sometimes mistakes are mistakes.
Sometimes, lack of thinking is lack of effort.
I just find it weird that some players get called out or punished for mistakes, lack of effort, not paying attention to detail, while others experience nothing negative.

 

[Ezekial]

You watch the game last night?
Did you see Larkin's awful, no-effort giveaways in his own end?
Sometimes mistakes are mistakes.
Sometimes, lack of thinking is lack of effort.
I just find it weird that some players get called out or punished for mistakes, lack of effort, not paying attention to detail, while others experience nothing negative.

I watch nearly every game. Larkin isn't a no effort player and I wouldn't call that a "no effort" turnover. It's definitely not the effort I was taking about.
That's exactly what I'm getting at, you want to reward a player who doesn't compete with more ice time. What does that tell said player?

He puts 110% effort into breakaways, do that in your overall game.

 

[Redder Winger]

I watch nearly every game. Larkin isn't a no effort player and I wouldn't call that a "no effort" turnover. It's definitely not the effort I was taking about.
That's exactly what I'm getting at, you want to reward a player who doesn't compete with more ice time. What does that tell said player?

He puts 110% effort into breakaways, do that in your overall game.

I'm sorry, but Larkin's plays were no effort pla
A weak clearing effort giveaway. Followed by another weak clearing effort giveaway.
And those were hardly his only miscues of the night.
I don't want to pick on the guy, but those were clearly plays by someone who wasn't "focused on the detail."
When one guy does it, it's because he doesn't work hard.
When another guy does it, it's simply a mistake.
It's a doublestandard.
Guys like Mantha and Athanasiou get benched or press boxed for those types of errors.
Other guys receive nothing for it.

 

[Ezekial]

Players like Mantha get scratched, take the message to heart and get in their coach's good graces. Larkin puts in the work, "no effort turnovers" or not, he puts in work.

AA pouted.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I'm sorry, but Larkin's plays were no effort pla
A weak clearing effort giveaway. Followed by another weak clearing effort giveaway.
And those were hardly his only miscues of the night.
I don't want to pick on the guy, but those were clearly plays by someone who wasn't "focused on the detail."
When one guy does it, it's because he doesn't work hard.
When another guy does it, it's simply a mistake.
It's a doublestandard.
Guys like Mantha and Athanasiou get benched or press boxed for those types of errors.
Other guys receive nothing for it.

There is a huge difference between a weak clearing attempt (btw, the second one was a great hold in by Hedman on a weak clearing attempt.) and not backchecking or getting beat by a guy way slower than you.

They get pressboxed for continuous errors like Frk's penalty yesterday where he got that unnecessary hold because he was late and lazy and grabbed cause he took a bad angle.

Guys don't get benched for weak clearing attempts up the boards. They'd get benched if they threw a weak clearing attempt up the middle, aka something you should never do. They get benched when a guy who is way slower than them gets a break because they didn't get on their horse to track him down.

AA will catch more **** on not backchecking, because he's clearly faster than 80% of the league. If he's not able to catch a guy, generally it's because he didn't try hard enough. You want the dap for having ridiculous skating speed and being a deadly scorer, you take the hit when your speed somehow vanishes when the play goes the other way.

Hell, AA might get a raw deal, but that's what you do when a guy plays less than his physical ability says he should play. Just based on his hands and skating alone, AA should be a star. If he were even adequate on the defensive end and positionally sound? He should be one of the guys pressing for a 6M long term contract to buy out all his RFA years. But he isn't. And that's why we are where we are at with him. His hockey IQ is just not that great. It's why guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg can be turtles in comparison and just be so wildly ahead in hockey talent.

AA has million dollar legs and hands... but a five cent brain for the game. He's much like Brendan Smith that way. Smith always should have been a much better hockey player than he was but was just rock ****ing stupid when it came to hockey plays.

 

[Frk It]

Players like Mantha get scratched, take the message to heart and get in their coach's good graces. Larkin puts in the work, "no effort turnovers" or not, he puts in work.

AA pouted.

AA typically has great games after being benched, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

AA typically has great games after being benched, if I'm not mistaken.

But then falls back to doing the things that got him benched in the first place. I think it's more that his ego is smarting from getting benched than him actually taking something to heart and being a better hockey player for it.

Maybe he just needs a Babcock style asskicking like Tatar used to get. A Bowman on Fedorov tongue lashing that results in him playing defense for a while.

 

[Ezekial]

AA typically has great games after being benched, if I'm not mistaken.

He had a great game (string of games) after the last time he was scratched, consistency issues persisted after that. He didn't get scratched after that Ducks game on January 4th.
I don't remember him lighting the world on fire any other time he came back from being scratched, but he needs to find that desire to play like that all the time.

 

[Redder Winger]

There is a huge difference between a weak clearing attempt (btw, the second one was a great hold in by Hedman on a weak clearing attempt.) and not backchecking or getting beat by a guy way slower than you.

They get pressboxed for continuous errors like Frk's penalty yesterday where he got that unnecessary hold because he was late and lazy and grabbed cause he took a bad angle.

Guys don't get benched for weak clearing attempts up the boards. They'd get benched if they threw a weak clearing attempt up the middle, aka something you should never do. They get benched when a guy who is way slower than them gets a break because they didn't get on their horse to track him down.

AA will catch more **** on not backchecking, because he's clearly faster than 80% of the league. If he's not able to catch a guy, generally it's because he didn't try hard enough. You want the dap for having ridiculous skating speed and being a deadly scorer, you take the hit when your speed somehow vanishes when the play goes the other way.

Hell, AA might get a raw deal, but that's what you do when a guy plays less than his physical ability says he should play. Just based on his hands and skating alone, AA should be a star. If he were even adequate on the defensive end and positionally sound? He should be one of the guys pressing for a 6M long term contract to buy out all his RFA years. But he isn't. And that's why we are where we are at with him. His hockey IQ is just not that great. It's why guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg can be turtles in comparison and just be so wildly ahead in hockey talent.

AA has million dollar legs and hands... but a five cent brain for the game. He's much like Brendan Smith that way. Smith always should have been a much better hockey player than he was but was just rock ****ing stupid when it came to hockey plays.

Yeah. I don't buy any of this.
It's funny how similar Larkin and Athanasiou actually are.
Many of the same strengths. Many of the same weaknesses.
Yet one guy is Mr. Character and the other is Mr. Douchebag, according to some of your guys.
One guy is Mr. Hockey Sense and the other is dumb as a brick.
But then you have to look at the stats and wonder why Mr Character and Hockey Sense, with all those same tools, isn't doing much with them and wonder why he's -27.

Here's what we saw from Dylan Larkin from Feb. 10 2016 until the end of the regular season last year.
113 games 23 goals, 17 assists -45 in 1810 minutes

Here are Andreaas Athanasiou's numbers in roughly the same time period
101 games 27 goals 16 assists 43 points -6 in 1193 minutes.

If one guy is so dumb and the other so smart, should the stats be reversed?

 

[Redder Winger]

Players like Mantha get scratched, take the message to heart and get in their coach's good graces. Larkin puts in the work, "no effort turnovers" or not, he puts in work.

AA pouted.

Evidence.
Sounds like bias to me.

 

[Frk It]

Yeah. I don't buy any of this.
It's funny how similar Larkin and Athanasiou actually are.
Many of the same strengths. Many of the same weaknesses.
Yet one guy is Mr. Character and the other is Mr. *****ebag, according to some of your guys.
One guy is Mr. Hockey Sense and the other is dumb as a brick.
But then you have to look at the stats and wonder why Mr Character and Hockey Sense, with all those same tools, isn't doing much with them and wonder why he's -27.

Here's what we saw from Dylan Larkin from Feb. 10 2016 until the end of the regular season last year.
113 games 23 goals, 17 assists -45 in 1810 minutes

Here are Andreaas Athanasiou's numbers in roughly the same time period
101 games 27 goals 16 assists 43 points -6 in 1193 minutes.

If one guy is so dumb and the other so smart, should the stats be reversed?

Larkin was 19/20 over that stretch... AA was 22/23. Important to note.

 

[Redder Winger]

Larkin was 19/20 over that stretch... AA was 22/23. Important to note.

Totally fair point.
But if Athanasiou had that kind of stretch.... If Mantha went -45 over 110 games. Imagine the howls.

 

[Shaman464]

Yeah. I don't buy any of this.
It's funny how similar Larkin and Athanasiou actually are.
Many of the same strengths. Many of the same weaknesses.
Yet one guy is Mr. Character and the other is Mr. *****ebag, according to some of your guys.
One guy is Mr. Hockey Sense and the other is dumb as a brick.
But then you have to look at the stats and wonder why Mr Character and Hockey Sense, with all those same tools, isn't doing much with them and wonder why he's -27.

Here's what we saw from Dylan Larkin from Feb. 10 2016 until the end of the regular season last year.
113 games 23 goals, 17 assists -45 in 1810 minutes

Here are Andreaas Athanasiou's numbers in roughly the same time period
101 games 27 goals 16 assists 43 points -6 in 1193 minutes.

If one guy is so dumb and the other so smart, should the stats be reversed?

First Larkin was younger. AA turned pro 13-14, the same year Larkin was drafted. Second +/- is not a great indicator of anything. Third they do not have the same weaknesses. Also taking random time periods doesn't help because the part you disinclude is why Larkin is considered so different than AA.

 

[Redder Winger]

First Larkin was younger. AA turned pro 13-14, the same year Larkin was drafted. Second +/- is not a great indicator of anything. Third they do not have the same weaknesses. Also taking random time periods doesn't help because the part you disinclude is why Larkin is considered so different than AA.

Plus minus is a great indicator of how many more goals you scored than gave up.
Which is kind of the point of hockey.
People talk about CF% like it's some great stat. All it is is plus-minus for shot attempts.
Yet somehow, it's a bad stat if you measure goals.
The reason is chose that date for Larkin is because that's when the wheels fell off that wild early ride.
It's also nice for the AA comparison because AA was called up around the same time.

 

[Shaman464]

Plus minus is a great indicator of how many more goals you scored than gave up.
Which is kind of the point of hockey.
People talk about CF% like it's some great stat. All it is is plus-minus for shot attempts.
Yet somehow, it's a bad stat if you measure goals.
The reason is chose that date for Larkin is because that's when the wheels fell off that wild early ride.
It's also nice for the AA comparison because AA was called up around the same time.

Because it makes it seem like AA and Larkin are comparable. Which it isn't. AA started playing pro hockey at the end of the 13-14 season. Larkin wasn't even drafted then. And seriously there aren't many things a lot of people agree on in hockey, but one is plus minus isn't a good stat.

 

[avssuc]

I watch nearly every game. Larkin isn't a no effort player and I wouldn't call that a "no effort" turnover. It's definitely not the effort I was taking about.
That's exactly what I'm getting at, you want to reward a player who doesn't compete with more ice time. What does that tell said player?

He puts 110% effort into breakaways, do that in your overall game.

I'd like to see Larkin slow things down at times. He plays fast too often and it leads to turnovers. I believe he will with time, but I'd say that I agree with aspects of what you replied to. At some point, when you rush the play, that's sloppy play, and that's lazy because of a failure in mental discipline. AA was/is in a different boat, but I can see how folks would make the comparison.

 

[Redder Winger]

Because it makes it seem like AA and Larkin are comparable. Which it isn't. AA started playing pro hockey at the end of the 13-14 season. Larkin wasn't even drafted then. And seriously there aren't many things a lot of people agree on in hockey, but one is plus minus isn't a good stat.

So here's another stat from last year.
Giveaways
Red Wings forwards
Larkin 51
Mantha 39
Tatar 38
Zetterberg 37
Nyquist 25
Vanek 27
Nielsen 26
Sheahan 22
Helm 20
Athanasiou 17.

Does anyone think that Larkin's 51 giveaways maybe had something to do with his -27 or whatever it was he had?

The point isn't that Athanasiou is better or Larkin is better.
The point is that only one guy gets shit on by the media, coach and fans.

Larkin, last year, was clearly in over his head and didn't look like he belonged in the NHL at various points of the season.
And yet the team decided it was in their best interest - obviously thinking of the future - to continue riding him 15+ minutes a night.
That's a decision I agree with.
That's the same decision that should have been made about Mantha and Athanasiou.

 

[Shaman464]

So here's another stat from last year.
Giveaways
Red Wings forwards
Larkin 51
Mantha 39
Tatar 38
Zetterberg 37
Nyquist 25
Vanek 27
Nielsen 26
Sheahan 22
Helm 20
Athanasiou 17.

Does anyone think that Larkin's 51 giveaways maybe had something to do with his -27 or whatever it was he had?

The point isn't that Athanasiou is better or Larkin is better.
The point is that only one guy gets **** on by the media, coach and fans.

Larkin, last year, was clearly in over his head and didn't look like he belonged in the NHL at various points of the season.
And yet the team decided it was in their best interest - obviously thinking of the future - to continue riding him 15+ minutes a night.
That's a decision I agree with.
That's the same decision that should have been made about Mantha and Athanasiou.

Except that didn't exist in a vacuum. Larkin had 49 takeaways. Also Larkin played against better players, so AA having less is more of a metric he wasn't playing against top line talent nearly as much. You can keep finding arbitrary stats and try to put them in a vacuum, but the best stats that hockey analysts have so far put AA as junk defensively when adjusted for most variables.

 

[taylorjonl]

So here's another stat from last year.
Giveaways
Red Wings forwards
Larkin 51
Mantha 39
Tatar 38
Zetterberg 37
Nyquist 25
Vanek 27
Nielsen 26
Sheahan 22
Helm 20
Athanasiou 17.

Does anyone think that Larkin's 51 giveaways maybe had something to do with his -27 or whatever it was he had?

The point isn't that Athanasiou is better or Larkin is better.
The point is that only one guy gets **** on by the media, coach and fans.

Larkin, last year, was clearly in over his head and didn't look like he belonged in the NHL at various points of the season.
And yet the team decided it was in their best interest - obviously thinking of the future - to continue riding him 15+ minutes a night.
That's a decision I agree with.
That's the same decision that should have been made about Mantha and Athanasiou.

McDavid had 54 give aways according to this site: https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/m/mcdavco01-advanced.html

Should we pitch an AA for McDavid thread? Of course not, you can't pick and choose stats. Are you seriously saying AA is a better player than Larkin? Is AA better than Mantha? Both players are so much more rounded than AA. You might be able to make a case by cherry picking stats but can you honestly say you would pick AA over either of those players?

 

[Redder Winger]

McDavid had 54 give aways according to this site: https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/m/mcdavco01-advanced.html

Should we pitch an AA for McDavid thread? Of course not, you can't pick and choose stats. Are you seriously saying AA is a better player than Larkin? Is AA better than Mantha? Both players are so much more rounded than AA. You might be able to make a case by cherry picking stats but can you honestly say you would pick AA over either of those players?

No, I'm not saying I pick Athanasiou over McDavid. That's absurd.
Although, he could end up being better than Larkin.

You can't run from the season 110-game stretch Larkin experienced coming into the season.
His offense was down. His giveaways were skyhigh. His plus minus was likely the worst in hockey during that stretch.

You can cherry pick the plus-minus and say it's a bad stat. You can cherrypick the giveaways and say it's a misleading stat.
You can point to the reduced production - lower than Athanasiou's in 50 percent more minutes -- and say he's got tougher opposition.

But at some point you have to admit that Larkin's game was really flawed over those 110 games.
Giveaways. Goals against by the bucket load.

And that's fine. Young players need to go through that.

But if you agree with that, then you have to treat your other young players - the guys who aren't struggling as badly -- the same way.

 

[Redder Winger]

Is there a way to make this website stop frezeing up whenever I type?
Sometimes it's OK, but today it's been awful all day.

 

[taylorjonl]

No, I'm not saying I pick Athanasiou over McDavid. That's absurd.

Do you pick AA over Mantha or Larkin?

 

[taylorjonl]

Is there a way to make this website stop frezeing up whenever I type?
Sometimes it's OK, but today it's been awful all day.

I disabled Javascript on this domain, I think they are bitcoin mining using javascript if you use ad block.

 

[Redder Winger]

Do you pick AA over Mantha or Larkin?

Not sure yet.
All three players have upside and downside.

Athanasiou
Downside - Is what is. A Michael Grabner type who can score goals in the right situations but who won't fit all styles.
Upside - 30-35 goal man with serious upside if he decides he wants to dedicate himself to defense.

Mantha
Downside - The negative side of Franzen. The guy who looks capable of being a dominant power forward and then disappears for 2-3 weeks.
Upside - The positive side of Franzen. Huge bodied forward with a great shot and a willingness to battle in the corners.

Larkin
Downside - Miscast as a center, he might never be more than a 3C with good speed and a good shot.
Upside - Hardworking, speedy two-way center with 30 goal ability.

So it depends.
I don't have a crystal ball.
I want all of these guys on the team, working their way toward that upside.

 

[Redder Winger]

I disabled Javascript on this domain, I think they are bitcoin mining using javascript if you use ad block.

Thanks.
Lose some features, but it's worth it. My wrists are already cooling off.
Wow. WTF kind of software are they running?