ATD Chat Thread XVIII

[tinyzombies]

That's my guy. Doing things I 100% approve of that don't at all make my eyes roll out of my head.

If they play the Pens in the playoffs now, that's in the back of Jarry's head. Crosby cutting Bergeron's skates was interesting too. He then hit the post and kept running around until he got a penalty. Sid is focused this year..

Just finding out Bergeron had to leave the game after Crosby's cheapshot.

 

[VanIslander]

How about a tournament of Every Frachines's past vs. Present?

Fans of Montreal or Toronto or Detroit would go.... nooo... hey.... wait a minute. K....

 

[The Macho King]

How about a tournament of Every Frachines's past vs. Present?

Fans of Montreal or Toronto or Detroit would go.... nooo... hey.... wait a minute. K....

Tampa's present would kill our historical team. Vasi + Hedman against Khabibulin and Boyle? No contest.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Tampa's present would kill our historical team. Vasi + Hedman against Khabibulin and Boyle? No contest.

Obviously the current team wouldn't be as deep, as they do have 4th liners and depth defenseman, while the all-time group can always find another solid second liner to drag off some random team in the past, but yeah, pretty much all the very best ones except Lecavalier and St. Louis are there now.

Current Montreal playing against Beliveau, Rocket, Lafleur, Harvey, Robinson and Roy is just hilarious to me and you should think so even if you're a Habs fan.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Tampa's present would kill our historical team. Vasi + Hedman against Khabibulin and Boyle? No contest.

Nah nothing can beat the bulin wall

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I cringe at thinking of how poorly NJ's current team would face against our historical team... or hell just any year's team from 1994-2007 or so.

But then I think about Montreal... lol

 

[The Macho King]

Obviously the current team wouldn't be as deep, as they do have 4th liners and depth defenseman, while the all-time group can always find another solid second liner to drag off some random team in the past, but yeah, pretty much all the very best ones except Lecavalier and St. Louis are there now.

Current Montreal playing against Beliveau, Rocket, Lafleur, Harvey, Robinson and Roy is just hilarious to me and you should think so even if you're a Habs fan.

IDK I'm trying to think of the best third liner. Brian Bradley?

Tampa had some shit teams. It's like Vinny, MSL, Brad Richards, and then you get like Ruslan Fedotenko-tier real quick.

 

[MadArcand]

LOL @ Czechs

 

[Johnny Engine]

Was just poking around at it, you've got Kuch vs. MSL as Art Ross threats, Point and Stamkos vs. Vinny and Richards in the next tier of stars, and after that you're stacking Cirelli, Killorn and Palat up against, I dunno, Prospal and Fedotenko and so on? After that, I can easily find 7 more middle-six types, (Modin, Gratton, Bradley, Olympian Rob Zamuner, blah blah blah) who may be more valuable than the likes of Ross Colton (haven't watched enough to form an opinion of how good he is, but you get where I'm going here. And then on the bottom, a guy like Taylor Raddysh would have to be worse than whoever guy #12 is all time.

Defense, you've got a truly transcendant player in Hedman over a regular star in Boyle; McDonagh's a top pair guy but so are Kubina and Hamrlik, then both Sergachev and Cernak are excellent top 4s and the only guy I'd strongly state that about otherwise is Stralman, maybe Filip Kuba. Whoever your last guy is (Mara? Ranger? Sarich? Coburn?) is definitely better than Bogo, Rutta or Foote.

Vasilevsky is better than Khabibulin by a mile and neither Puppa nor Elliott would see the ice in this exercise.

If you're of the opinion that hockey is a strong link game, Vasi and Hedman are far enough ahead of their counterparts that I think they're the difference.

 

[The Macho King]

It's like -

First line, call it a wash. Kucherov higher peak than MSL, but give the resume an edge. Richards and Point are kind of... oddly similar. Stamkos over Vinny.

Second line - really prefer Tampa there. You'd probably elevate like... Tyler Johnson? Cirelli is a Selke-level player. Palat is one of the best defensive wingers in the league, and Killorn is the ultimate "put him on any line and he works". Losing our third line last year I would honestly just lift it straight and put it on the historical team, so yeah we're behind on bottom 6 because of the cap.

McDonagh is the second best D to ever play for Tampa, which is nuts. Boyle I love, as do I love Kubina, but McDonagh is an underrated guy when it comes to just completely shutting down the ice.

I really am glad this team finally gelled and got some Cups, because otherwise I don't know how I could be a fan anymore. Collect this much talent and you still didn't win? Yikes.

 

[tinyzombies]

Anyone buy ggpi stock? Merger coming up and it’s cheap. Wink

 

[Elvis P]

Please vote for the 5 best listed teams

 

[Johnny Engine]

It's like -

First line, call it a wash. Kucherov higher peak than MSL, but give the resume an edge. Richards and Point are kind of... oddly similar. Stamkos over Vinny.

Second line - really prefer Tampa there. You'd probably elevate like... Tyler Johnson? Cirelli is a Selke-level player. Palat is one of the best defensive wingers in the league, and Killorn is the ultimate "put him on any line and he works". Losing our third line last year I would honestly just lift it straight and put it on the historical team, so yeah we're behind on bottom 6 because of the cap.

McDonagh is the second best D to ever play for Tampa, which is nuts. Boyle I love, as do I love Kubina, but McDonagh is an underrated guy when it comes to just completely shutting down the ice.

I really am glad this team finally gelled and got some Cups, because otherwise I don't know how I could be a fan anymore. Collect this much talent and you still didn't win? Yikes.

Stamkos is definitely over Lecavalier in an abstracted ATD-like "measure of the man" type rubric, but my post was meant to compare the peak value of various past bolts (like the 52-goal Vinny who was something approaching MacKinnon or Matthews to Crosby's McDavid in 2007) to the team's current form, where Stamkos is in that Johnny Bucyk phase of scoring like a superstar with even better teammates while everyone realizes he's several steps behind both them and his past self. So I don't think we disagree on much there, but were just looking at different things.

Agree that it's wild how every single player Tampa has ever had in the tier of Palat, Cirelli and Killorn is playing for the team right now.

McDonagh, that's where I'm mildly surprised at your assessment. Like, I know you love the guy, ask me about Jake Muzzin and TJ Brodie and you'll see there's no stronger bond than between a man and a 2/3 defenseman who doesn't make many mistakes (not saying they're as good, just a type). But my perception of Boyle in his 07-10 peak where he's getting Norris and AST attention and getting invited to the Olympics is a different level to what I assumed RMcD was at this point. I can buy Boyle was somewhat overrated at the time, and vice versa for RMcD, but that's a big hill to climb, perception-wise, isn't it?

 

[The Macho King]

Boyle was always part of a #1 by committee system. Great offensive player, left a lot lacking going the other way.

McDonagh has some offense to his game, and could fill in as a true #1 (and theres proof of concept in NY). And when you have a Hedman, having a guy like McDonagh is more important than having a guy like Boyle.

Also I could be convinced that Kubina was the best Dman on those teams.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Boyle was always part of a #1 by committee system. Great offensive player, left a lot lacking going the other way.

McDonagh has some offense to his game, and could fill in as a true #1 (and theres proof of concept in NY). And when you have a Hedman, having a guy like McDonagh is more important than having a guy like Boyle.

Also I could be convinced that Kubina was the best Dman on those teams.

I thought Kubina was their best defenseman in 2004 myself (and despite the sticker shock he was good and needed on the Leafs, it wasn't his fault their only good forward was ancient and the goalies sucked), but I'm mainly referring to a few years later - in '07 Boyle played 7 minutes per game more than Kuba! So that at least wasn't a "#1 by commitee" situation. Which I suppose is exactly the sort of environment you'd most likely overrate a defenseman in. Again, not his fault he happened to play for a team that got screwed by the new cap harder than anyone else, but the boxcars make him look like some kind of Atlas holding up an entire franchise and he probably wasn't that.

 

[ResilientBeast]

We just fired Tipett that will definitely fix things

 

[Johnny Engine]

We just fired Tipett that will definitely fix things

Someone picked Jay Woodcroft in the ATD a couple of years ago, didn't they? Really can't remember what that was about, maybe it was a Tsujimoto "there are too many rounds" protest?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Boyle was always part of a #1 by committee system. Great offensive player, left a lot lacking going the other way.

McDonagh has some offense to his game, and could fill in as a true #1 (and theres proof of concept in NY). And when you have a Hedman, having a guy like McDonagh is more important than having a guy like Boyle.

Also I could be convinced that Kubina was the best Dman on those teams.

Boyle didn't seem to fully hit his peak until he was on his way out of Tampa Bay. That said, his first 2nd Team All Star nod really should have been Duncan Keith's

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Someone picked Jay Woodcroft in the ATD a couple of years ago, didn't they? Really can't remember what that was about, maybe it was a Tsujimoto "there are too many rounds" protest?

I vaguely remember that, he was an assistant coach in charge of doing his specialty or something something.

 

[Dreakmur]

Someone picked Jay Woodcroft in the ATD a couple of years ago, didn't they? Really can't remember what that was about, maybe it was a Tsujimoto "there are too many rounds" protest?

He was picked as a special teams coach, but then we looked at the special teams he ran and they were pretty bad....

 

[VanIslander]

It all comes out in the wash.

Trust the process.

 

[Elvis P]

HHOF Pictures

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Phoenix

 

[Sturminator]

Boyle was always part of a #1 by committee system. Great offensive player, left a lot lacking going the other way.

Dan Boyle was really good in San Jose. He made some errors, sure, but he also made it very difficult for the other team to get the puck back when it was on his stick. I dunno what his possession metrics were for those years, but I'm sure they were excellent. At the very least, I don't think his all-star/Norris record is "tainted" by him being an offensive defenseman (which can be said of some others).

 

[Elvis P]

Phoenix

The Coyotes playing at ASU's 5k seat arena for at least 3 seasons seems sad to me.