ATD 2024 Lineup Advice Thread

[ChiTownPhilly]

Since I've seen so little of him in ATD, I didn't know, until seconds ago, that Bubla is an RHS, too.

Moose Vasko in a top-4 role is pretty worrying, as well.

The most memorable RHSs playing LD are Undrafted (for whom it worked, on account of playing on an international sized ice-surface), and Tim Horton doing spot-rotations left for match-up purposes.

Jack Stewart lead the league in PiMs once.
Sprague Cleghorn, to my surprise, only led the NHL in PiMs once. [Would take more research to see his NHA rankings.] I guess with Cleghorn, the worry isn't so much if he'll leave your squad shorthanded on the ice on account of 2-minute "misdemeanors," it's leaving your roster shorthanded on account of multiple-game suspension "felonies."

Red Horner is a special case. Red Horner led the league in PiMs six straight years, and 7 of 8. That's as many league-leading totals as (early/mid 70s Undrafted) and (second half of 70s/early 80s Undrafted) COMBINED.

 

[Claude The Fraud]

What about my defense, guys?

Fetisov - Gonchar
Suchy - Pospisil
Ramsey - Dutton

Should I split Suchy - Pospisil and have one of them play with Fetisov?

 

[VanIslander]

Ok, so I can just flip Propp back and get a scorer at RW... drafted Bondra, so...

With Shero as your coach, likely...

Propp - Lalonde - Bathgate
Kariya - Clarke - Anderson
Noble - Carbonneau - Finnigan

 

[tinyzombies]

With Shero as your coach, likely...

Propp - Lalonde - Bathgate
Kariya - Clarke - Anderson
Noble - Carbonneau - Finnigan

I was thinking about that... I think that is better.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

My defensive pairings, should I change anything;

Sprague Cleghorn-Jiri Bubla
Jack Stewart-Sergei Zubov
Moose Vasko-Red Horner

Cleghorn-Stewart
Vasko-Zubov
Bubla-Horner

Bubla on a 1st pairing is not ideal.

Agree with your last sentence. Why not just switch Bubla and Horner on Tony’s original lineup above? Yours has two RHS on the third pair and I believe Stewart only played the left side (I know for sure when it was him and Quackenbush, the Quacker was on the right side).

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

What about my defense, guys?

Fetisov - Gonchar
Suchy - Pospisil
Ramsey - Dutton

Should I split Suchy - Pospisil and have one of them play with Fetisov?

The sides seem off here.

Did Gonchar play the right side? Either way, Fetisov played with a more defense focused partner. They should not be a pair.

Pospisil could be a good partner for Fetisov, but did he play the right side? I thought Suchy was right Pospisil left but I’m not 100% on that.

 

[Namba 17]

I thought Suchy was right Pospisil left

Yes

 

[tony d]

My forward lines; Good as is?

Roy Conacher-Steve Yzerman-Gordie Howe
Syd Howe-Sergei Fedorov-Steve Larmer
Craig Ramsay-Steve Kasper-Danny Gare
Patrick Marleau-Gilbert Perreault-Tony Amonte

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Frank Mahovlich - Phil Esposito - Rod Gilbert
Busher Jackson - Henri Richard - Gordie Drillon

This is my top six. Should I switch Mahovlich and Jackson? Or leave it as is?

No-one's addressed this yet- so I'll have a go.

The typical 'ATD-template' for top lines is- Playmaking-Oriented Star, Finishing-Oriented Star, and 'Glue-Guy and/or Corner-Battler and/or Defensive-Conscience' Star.

Henri Richard is a clear/obvious (and elite) "Defensive-Conscience" type (who's also fine at Even-strength scoring). Still, he's looking like the only credible one of the six for that 3rd category skill-set.

It used to be that Charlie Conacher and Busher Jackson were considered defensive nullities, based mostly on the testimony of somebody's self-serving autobiography. When I went spelunking into C. Conacher's (and Toronto's) game-by-game records, I discovered no scoreboard evidence for the assertion, at least insofar as Conacher was concerned. I have refined my thinking a little further since then, and now believe that that C. Conacher likely had a role in driving possession, and suppressed opposition scoring on account of that ability, in spite of possible indifferent-appearing play in the defensive zone. [C.F.: Jágr.]

If I were ever to draft Busher Jackson, I'd consider going back into the cave, and seeing if Busher Jackson was tarred unjustly, as well. Until then, though, the Majority Report considers Busher Jackson to be a "one-way-traffic" kind of player- and you've made the best of a not-so-ideal situation.

The burden-of-proof rests upon the person(s) who draft Jackson to show that he's something other than what he's been considered, for years.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

What about my defense, guys?

Fetisov - Gonchar
Suchy - Pospisil
Ramsey - Dutton

Should I split Suchy - Pospisil and have one of them play with Fetisov?

The sides seem off here.

Did Gonchar play the right side? Either way, Fetisov played with a more defense focused partner. They should not be a pair.

Pospisil could be a good partner for Fetisov, but did he play the right side? I thought Suchy was right Pospisil left but I’m not 100% on that.

Yeah- this kind of is (to borrow Jim Murray's paraphrase of Conan-Doyle) a three-pipe conundrum-

I saw Gonchar on RD as part of overpass' 2021 Ottawa Senators squad (with Kasatonov on the left [?!?]), but I just mentally inverted the two, concluding that Ottawa's coach Bowman would put them on their proper sides. Gonchar was also part of VanIslander's undervalued 2021 Milwaukee Admirals squad, as the 7th D in an 18 team draft.

Independent of laterality, the larger concern is Gonchar getting even-strength playing time on a first pairing in an All-Time league of less than 2-dozen. He's not as E.S. dire as Housley- but Gonchar's 5v5 credentials at this level are... not great.

It's a situation that calls for taking chances- and here's the chance I'd take-

Make your first pairing Pospisil-Suchy, and lean into that Bohemian Chemistry.
Make your second pairing Fetisov-Dutton, then make a credible case for Fetisov on PP1 AND PK1, based on the lesser ES minutes on pairing 2. Normally, I put the cut-off for D use on PP1 & PK1 at the Bourque level- maybe Lidstrom at the very outside... but with 2nd pairing minutes, I'd buy that Fetisov on Special Teams of both First Units isn't overuse.

Also- interesting locker room you've got there. Fetisov-Makarov-Larionov and Suchy-Pospisil-Nedomansky sharing the same facilities. I envision Al Arbour being called upon to try to deliver his best "Remember the Titans" grade speech.

 

[jigglysquishy]

A couple questions for my forward lineup

Tommy Phillips - Stan Mikita - Lanny McDonald
Markus Naslund - Evgeni Malkin - Rick Middleton
Dave Andreychuk- Cooney Weiland - Ace Bailey
Brian Sutter - Butch Goring - Jerry Toppazzini
Extra: Rat Westwick, Bob McDougall

I'm fairly confident in my top-six. I've got cornermen on each line and both playmaking and shooting skills.

Weiland and Bailey are both defensively elite and provide enough offense to be worthwhile on the third line. Andreychuk wasn't defensively elite, but I think his net-front presence works well with them and adds some much needed depth scoring.

I'm stuck on my 4th line. I kind of want to move Rat Westwick into the 4th line centre role, but I think I lose too much offense. And both Westwick and Goring have grit, but Goring's playoff excellence would be missed.

 

[The Macho King]

Bobby Hull - Elmer Lach - Martin St. Louis
Bert Olmstead - Jean Ratelle - Cecil Dillon
Marty Pavelich - Vyacheslav Starshinov - Joe Mullen
Rick Nash - John Madden - Tim Kerr
Ondrej Palat, Vincent Lecavalier

Lionel Conacher - King Clancy
Carl Brewer - Lionel Hitchman
Brian Campbell - Teppo Numminen
Albert Leduc

Glenn Hall
Ben Bishop
PP1: Hull, Lach, St. Louis, Olmstead, Clancy
PP2: Dillon, Ratelle, Kerr, Nash, Conacher

PK1: Pavelich, Starshinov, Hitchman, Brewer
PK2: Olmstead, Madden, Conacher, Clancy


Would love some general advice on special teams and letters especially.

 

[overpass]

I saw Gonchar on RD as part of overpass' 2021 Ottawa Senators squad (with Kasatonov on the left [?!?]), but I just mentally inverted the two, concluding that Ottawa's coach Bowman would put them on their proper sides. Gonchar was also part of VanIslander's undervalued 2021 Milwaukee Admirals squad, as the 7th D in an 18 team draft.

Where do you get Gonchar as LD? I don't remember what he played in Washington but I can confirm he played the right side in Pittsburgh and Ottawa.

I think RD makes sense for his playstyle too. Gonchar concedes the boards a bit and isn't very physical, instead he uses his stick to pick the puck when it comes off the boards. So he doesn't have to be on his strong side to defend. And he gets better passing angles from RD when he does get the puck.

Gonchar is best with an aggressive, physical partner, who can do most of the work in the corners and along the boards while Gonchar covers the front of the net. Similar to how Doug Harvey played, waiting in front of his net while his partner did the corner work, and then taking the puck and starting the counter attack when the puck made its way in front.

 

[Claude The Fraud]

Thanks @ChiTownPhilly ! One one of the most in-depth line-up advice I was ever given.

I'll definitely take your advice on board.

I'd like to reunite 5 Russians on the ice in the same time, guess we'll keep it for powerplay.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Would love some general advice on special teams and letters especially.

Limiting myself to the things that I can assert comfortably...

1) Hitchman is one of those picks, like George Armstrong, where you can get leadership for cheaper than you'd normally have to pay. It's a big part of his ATD "value package." Not going to have too many decisions easier than making Hitch the 'C.'

2) To review, you have Dillon, not Drillon. That means he'd look better on the PK than on the PP.

 

[Johnny Engine]

You definitely have enough PK forwards (and there's nothing wrong with having Dillon in your pocket as a 5th PKer), but is he any better a 2nd power play option than Mullen?

FWIW, in both Bob Johnson series I watched, Mullen was used as a weak side winger who'd go for backdoor tap-ins, opposite Loob on the Flames 1st PP, and opposite Jagr on the Pens second PP.

 

[MVP of West Hollywd]

Would you start Vikulov with Sid Smith-Dave Poulin on 4th line or Kessel? There is potentially time for either player on 2nd power play which I currently had Leclair, Sundin, Iginla and Pilote as the other players (another option would be to use Lutchenko since I think his slapshot is good).

 

[Chet Donnelly]

No-one's addressed this yet- so I'll have a go.

The typical 'ATD-template' for top lines is- Playmaking-Oriented Star, Finishing-Oriented Star, and 'Glue-Guy and/or Corner-Battler and/or Defensive-Conscience' Star.

Henri Richard is a clear/obvious (and elite) "Defensive-Conscience" type (who's also fine at Even-strength scoring). Still, he's looking like the only credible one of the six for that 3rd category skill-set.

It used to be that Charlie Conacher and Busher Jackson were considered defensive nullities, based mostly on the testimony of somebody's self-serving autobiography. When I went spelunking into C. Conacher's (and Toronto's) game-by-game records, I discovered no scoreboard evidence for the assertion, at least insofar as Conacher was concerned. I have refined my thinking a little further since then, and now believe that that C. Conacher likely had a role in driving possession, and suppressed opposition scoring on account of that ability, in spite of possible indifferent-appearing play in the defensive zone. [C.F.: Jágr.]

If I were ever to draft Busher Jackson, I'd consider going back into the cave, and seeing if Busher Jackson was tarred unjustly, as well. Until then, though, the Majority Report considers Busher Jackson to be a "one-way-traffic" kind of player- and you've made the best of a not-so-ideal situation.

The burden-of-proof rests upon the person(s) who draft Jackson to show that he's something other than what he's been considered, for years.

Appreciate the feedback. Yeah, I don't really have that "defensive-conscience" type forward for my top line. I've got a great mix of offense, with both goal-scoring and playmaking represented, so I'm hoping that my top defensive pairing can cover the defensive aspect of things. I've moved Drillon out from the top 6 and replaced him with Pastrnak, who I think is a better fit with the Pocket Rocket.

I will post my full lineup below for a more macro view of my squad:

Head Coach
Glen Sather


Forwards
Frank Mahovlich • Phil Esposito • Rod Gilbert
Busher Jackson • Henri Richard • David Pastrnak
Joe Klukay • Duke Keats • Gordie Drillon
Rick Martin • Joel Otto • Mark Stone
Henrik Sedin, Mikko Rantanen

Defensemen
Ray Bourque • Erik Karlsson
Ken Reardon • Fern Flaman
Willie Mitchell • P.K. Subban
Glen Harmon

Goaltenders
Clint Benedict
Roberto Luongo

​

Power Play 1
Esposito • Mahovlich • Gilbert • Bourque • Karlsson
Power Play 2
Jackson • Drillon • Keats • Pastrnak • Subban

Penalty Kill 1
Richard • Klukay • Reardon • Flaman
Penalty Kill 2
Otto • Stone • Bourque • Mitchell

 

[The Macho King]

Limiting myself to the things that I can assert comfortably...

1) Hitchman is one of those picks, like George Armstrong, where you can get leadership for cheaper than you'd normally have to pay. It's a big part of his ATD "value package." Not going to have too many decisions easier than making Hitch the 'C.'

2) To review, you have Dillon, not Drillon. That means he'd look better on the PK than on the PP.

You know as I think about it, I'm wondering why I don't have Hull on both PPs.

 

[spitsfan24]

I have a few questions about special teams personnel.

For reference, here's what I'm working with:

Toe Blake - Jean Beliveau - Mike Bossy
Henrik Zetterberg - Frank Fredrickson - Dany Heatley
Smokey Harris - Jacques Lemaire - Mickey MacKay
Gilles Tremblay - Vincent Damphousse - Ken Randall
(Ernie Russell, Eric Staal)

Mark Howe - Earl Seibert
Ryan Suter - Brent Burns
Doug Mohns - Bob Goldham
(Sandis Ozolinsh, Ken Randall)

On the PP, my first inclination is to do this:

PP1:

Blake-Beliveau-Bossy
Howe-Burns

PP2:

Zetterberg-Fredrickson-Heatley
Suter-Goldham*

*I feel fairly confident in the first unit, but not so much the second unit. I don't think it makes sense to put Seibert in Goldham's place since he's already playing so many minutes already. Should I sit Mohns for Ozolinsh and put him there instead? Or is Goldham the best bet?

PK1:

Lemaire-Zetterberg
Suter-Seibert

PK2:

Damphousse**-?
Howe-Goldham

**I'm looking for feedback on the forwards here. Who would be the best fit alongside Damphousse?

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Where do you get Gonchar as LD? I don't remember what he played in Washington but I can confirm he played the right side in Pittsburgh and Ottawa.

The fault can be placed on me for relying too much on contributions like this:

Sergei Gonchar- Red Dutton
Spares: (Doug Mohns)

or this:

St. John's IceCaps


Sergei Gonchar - Terry Harper
​

or this:

Sokovia Recorders


Sergei Gonchar - Terry Harper

or this:

View attachment 132779
NEWPORT MESA


Sergei Gonchar - Scott Niedermayer
​

Let the record reflect that I don't doubt you're correct, though. Think we can agree that (regardless), best use of Gonchar here is for PP & Kane-like Offensive-Zone Starts percentage 3rd pairing minutes.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I have a few questions about special teams personnel.

For reference, here's what I'm working with:

Toe Blake - Jean Beliveau - Mike Bossy
Henrik Zetterberg - Frank Fredrickson - Dany Heatley
Smokey Harris - Jacques Lemaire - Mickey MacKay
Gilles Tremblay - Vincent Damphousse - Ken Randall
(Ernie Russell, Eric Staal)

Mark Howe - Earl Seibert
Ryan Suter - Brent Burns
Doug Mohns - Bob Goldham
(Sandis Ozolinsh, Ken Randall)

On the PP, my first inclination is to do this:

PP1:

Blake-Beliveau-Bossy
Howe-Burns

PP2:

Zetterberg-Fredrickson-Heatley
Suter-Goldham*

*I feel fairly confident in the first unit, but not so much the second unit. I don't think it makes sense to put Seibert in Goldham's place since he's already playing so many minutes already. Should I sit Mohns for Ozolinsh and put him there instead? Or is Goldham the best bet?

PK1:

Lemaire-Zetterberg
Suter-Seibert

PK2:

Damphousse**-?
Howe-Goldham

**I'm looking for feedback on the forwards here. Who would be the best fit alongside Damphousse?

Goldham should not be on an ATD PP unit, Doug Mohns should be. The trickier question to me is, should Mohns or Howe be the 2nd Dman on your 1st PP unit? If I remember correctly, Howe is more of an ES specialist, it may be better to have him on the 2nd unit. Would like to hear what others think of this.

I also think you should replace Suter with Seibert on your 2nd PP unit.

I think you have the correct Dmen pairings on the PK.


As for your forwards on the PK, it doesn't look like Lemaire actually PK'd all that much in his career, I'd swap him and Damphousse

MacKay seems like a good choice to round out the PK forwards.

 

[tinyzombies]

.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

ok boys, it's your job to turn this into a championship contender:

Head Coach Fred Shero

Captain: Bobby Clarke
Alternate Captains: Larry Robinson, Newsy Lalonde

Kariya - Clarke - Bathgate
Noble - Lalonde - Anderson
Propp - Carbonneau - Finnigan
Rusty Crawford - Hawerchuk - Bondra

Robinson - Stuart
Boon - Mantha
Wilson/McDonagh - Heller

Vezina
Barrasso

Bench
Hodge
Kovalev

PP1:
Clarke
Bathgate - Lalonde - Kariya
Robinson

PP2:
Anderson
H. Stuart - Hawerchuk - Bondra
Boon

PK1: Robinson, Manta, Carbo, Propp
PK2: McDonagh, H. Stuart, Clarke, Finnigan​

Wrong thread. This is for specific questions. This should go in the Assassination thread.

 

[GKJ]

I'm kinda in a spot, maybe an oversight on my part, trying to nail down my power play alignments and the need for net-front guys. Perhaps this is my recency bias speaking about the subject.

I have one PP running through Gretzky obviously, and the second running through Giroux, and they're both going to play it two different ways, and may not necessarily be a match for the same unit (unless I'm just wrong).

I feel the Giroux unit needs 2 guys like that, and I have Yakushev and Barber marked for it, with Chara at the point. Palffy plays the opposite side.

That seems to leave Gretzky's unit a bit small there. If I leave Bure as a point guy to drop in on Gretzky. First, that's a dream-like scenario and too good not to use, but it leaves LaFontaine and Cournoyer as the two best options as power play guys, I think the latter can play in tight, as I'm not sure Wendel Clark is on that level, and they're all under 6 feet as it is. I have Rob Blake on that unit, but I could also toy with the idea of using Chara on that unit and dropping him in as a set-play option if it's a legitimate play.