ATD 2021 Draft Thread IV

[ImporterExporter]

Yes- and the reason for the delay in my selection isn't so much that I'm following on the heels of a selection at 3:39AM my time (so no worries, tabness). The reason for my delay is because this go-round, more than any other round having yet taken place in-the-draft, is the span where my short-list took a strafing.

Recent draft history for the next player to join the Phantoms shows that He pretty much alternates between @ImporterExporter as a bottom-six Center, and ResilientBeast as a checking-line LW. Here, it is the 'Beast' model that I'll choose to follow, and add the port-side line-mate to Bergeron by selecting former Selke-winner and three-time Selke runner-up (to three different players):

John Madden

PM sent to @Professor What

Fantastic pick sir! Always liked Madden.

Also, thumbs up on the usage of strafing in a sentence.

 

[VanIslander]

I always have thought Madden a lesser but luckier-team-situation Peca.

That should be a compliment not an insult.

Captain Crunch should be in the HHOF (could have at least given Laprade and Carbo).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I always have thought Madden a lesser but luckier-team-situation Peca.

That should be a compliment not an insult.

Captain Crunch should be in the HHOF could given Leprade and Carbo).

Carbo's longevity as an elite defensive player was a lot more than Peca or Madden had though.

 

[VanIslander]

For a 7-year span, no one dominated like Captain Crunch. Ask Lindros' mom.

But dirty hit injuries took their toll.

 

[VanIslander]

BCTV showed a full-bearded Vancouver season ticket holder crying and trying to speak after rookie Peca was traded for 76-goal Mogilny.

Not for a nanosecond did I or my friends think we got a fair deal. Peca was the next Messier minus the scoring. He.owned.every.room.

He went on to captain two NHL teams, get multiple Selkes and be all we knew he would be. If only he didn't get traded to the Sabres & Islanders.

I choose Peca over Goring every day of the week. Love both!

 

[Professor What]

I'm going to finish off my third line with a guy who was a reasonably strong performer on both ends of the ice, and a man known for stepping up his game in the playoffs (0.69 ppg in the postseason compared to 0.56 ppg in the regular season), and who played for six Cup winners in Toronto and Montreal. Dick Duff!

 

[Dreakmur]

Kesler and Fedorov are RW. Neither of them did anything close to what Giroux did in that position.

Now Madden is a LW. When was he ever a good winger?

 

[VanIslander]

200%

 

[tinyzombies]

Sid Smith - LW

Height: 5'10'', 177 (adjusted to 6-1, 203 lbs)
VsX7 goals: 39.2

Stanley Cup Champion (1949, 1950, 1951)
NHL First All-Star Team (1955)
NHL Second All-Star Team (1951, 1952)
NHL Third All-Star Team (1950, 1954)
Played in NHL All-Star Game (1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955)
Lady Byng Trophy (1952, 1955)
Team Captain (1955-1956)

[great all-around play; "master of the tip-in"; hard driving but gentlemanly; an old hand at scoring hockey playoff goals in bunches; known for his speed and his ability to pick up loose pucks; flair for the dramatic; reputation of being a one-way player early in his career, but his defensive skills developed over the years; key component of the Leaf teams that closed out the 1940s and carried on into the 1950s]

AHL First All-Star Team (1949)
John B. Sollenberger Trophy (AHL - Leading Scorer) (1949)
World Championship Gold Medal (1958)
Allan Cup Champion (1958)


Top-10 Scoring (5th, 8th, 10th, 15th)
Top-10 Goalscoring (4th, 4th, 5th, 7th, 10th, 12th)
Top-10 Assist (11th)



Top-10 Playoff Scoring (3rd, 4th)
Top-10 Playoff Goalscoring (2nd, 2nd, 10th)
Top-10 Playoff Assist (7th)


All-Star Voting:
1949-50: 3rd place
1950-51: 2nd place
1951-52: 2nd place
1953-54: 3rd place
1954-55: 1st place

Awards Nomination:

Hart Memorial Trophy:
1954-55: 17th position position (Ted Kennedy) 1 point

Lady Bing Memorial Trophy:
1949-50: 5th position (Edgar Laprade) (0-0-5)
1950-51: 6th position (Red Kelly) 5 points
1951-52: 1st position (+47.1%)
1952-53: 3rd position (Red Kelly) (0-2-2)
1953-54: 4th position (Red Kelly) (12-6)
1954-55: 1st position (+36.8%)
1956-57: 3rd position (Andy Hebenton) (12-25)


Legends of Hockey said:

At the end of his year with the Hornets, he was promoted to the Leafs to bolster the team as it attempted to hoist the Stanley Cup for the third consecutive season. Smith had an immediate impact, scoring two goals and assisting on another in the first game of the semifinal series against the Boston Bruins. In the second game of the Stanley Cup finals against Gordie Howe and the Detroit Red Wings, Smith scored all three goals, each of them on the power-play, in a 3-1 Toronto win. At the end of the game, Howe asked reporters, "Who's Sid Smith?"

Toronto swept the Red Wings and won the record-setting third consecutive Cup, winning its ninth consecutive game in the final series. Smith had a regular spot with the Leafs the next season, playing on a line alongside Toronto captain Ted Kennedy and Bill Ezinicki, the trio that had been so productive in the playoffs.

Some of Smith's many goals were momentous, including an overtime goal in the 1951 Stanley Cup finals against Montreal, a series that featured extra-time thrillers in each of the five games it took for Toronto to win its fifth Cup in six years. He also scored the winning goal in the first televised Maple Leafs game, against the Boston Bruins on November 1, 1952.

A model of consistency, Smith recorded six consecutive seasons with 20 or more goals, achieving that distinction in 1954-55 along with Gordie Howe. Only four others had been so reliable and Smith led the Leafs in scoring categories for eight seasons, four times for goals and four times for total points.
Click to expand...​

Joe Pelletier said:

Sid Smith was the Toronto Maple Leafs "master of the tip-in" from 1949 thorough 1958. That's how one reporter described the hometown left winger who made a career out of deflecting point shots.​

Hockey's Glory Days said:

Smith had the reputation of being a one-way player early in his career, but his defensive skills developed over the years. Still, he remained an offensive threat.​

Hockey Then & Now said:

The game of October 26, 1957, was number seven on the Leafs schedule. Visiting Maple Leaf Gardens, were the New York Rangers.

Playing mostly on a line with Rudy Migay and Tod Sloan, the trio were considered Toronto's veteran combination. On occasion, Migay would be relived by Billy Harris at centre. Wearing sweater number 8, Smith is diligent in patrolling the left wing. He is consistently looking for open ice in the offensive zone. When a play breaks down, Smith sprints back to attend to his defensive responsibilities.

Late in the third period, Migay, Sloan and Smith perform some magic for a national audience watching on Hockey Night In Canada. The action starts with Sid Smith picking up a loose puck in the Leaf zone and initiating a rush up the middle. As he crosses the Ranger blueline, he cuts right. Smith must fend off New York defenceman Jack Evans. As he eludes Evans, Smith makes a pass, but Bill Gadsby's stick blocks the puck. Not giving up on the play, a determined Smith attempts a second pass, with the identical result. He regains control of the puck and skates around the net. Coming out the left side, Smith curls the puck towards the goal. Tod Sloan, in perfect position, shoots the puck past a hapless Gump Worsley.

Sid Smith was a player who recognized the importance of team first. He was appointed captain of the Leafs for the 1955-56 campaign. He had big skates to fill - Ted Kennedy's. Blaine stated his dad wore the "C", but came to the realization that the added responsibility was starting to affect his performance. For the good of the club, Smith relinquished the captaincy. Team first.

---

Throughout the history of hockey, certain players have carved out a distinctive style or technique that is all their own. In the case of Max Bentley, it was his stick handling skills which baffled opponents and thrilled fans. Rocket Richard's competitive spirit often resulted in his carrying the Canadiens, not to mention opposing players, on his back.

Entering his third full-season with the Toronto Maple Leafs (1951-52), Sid Smith earned the reputation for mastering the fine art of tipping the puck past goalies. Positioning himself in front of the net enabled him to cash in on scoring opportunities. As Leaf coach Joe Primeau put it at the time, Smith is "an exceptional opportunist."
Click to expand...​

The Hockey Writers said:

Sid Smith was a quiet, consistent player who may be overlooked by some. Following in the skates of Hall of Famers Apps and Kennedy, Smith, like his surname, may seem ordinary and everyday. He was, in fact, a key component of the Leaf teams that closed out the 1940s and carried on into the 1950s.​

MapleLeafs.NHL.com said:

Smith had a flair for the dramatic as he always seemed to step it up in the biggest of moments.​

Associated Press said:

Smith was known for his speed and his ability to pick up loose pucks. He was also durable, playing in more than 400 consecutive games.​

-----

The Milwaukee Journal - Apr 11 said:

Smith, a grinning little left winger (...) was everywhere at once on Sunday​

The Owosso Argus-Press - Apr 12 said:

Swift Sid Smith, an old hand at scoring hockey playoff goals in bunches.​

Hockey Card; 1952-53 Parkhurst said:

Has played great hockey for Leafs since he came from Pittsburgh 3 years ago. He's a hard driving but gentlemanly puckster.​

Hockey Cards - 1953-54 Parkhurst said:

Starting his 6th straight season as a regular with Leafs, he stood well up in NHL scoring last season and led all his team-mates. A Clever and gentlemanly player. he spent only 6 minutes in penalty in 70 games played, which is less than any other NHL player who was in for every encounter.​

The Calgary Herald - Jan 24 said:

The telegram quotes Dick Irvin coach of Montreal Canadiens, proposing that each of the present top three clubs of National Hockey League lend two players to bolster the team which will represent Canada in the world hockey championships in Europe this winter.

Irvin suggests the team include Harry Lumley and Sid Smith of Toronto Maple Leafs, Jean Beliveau and Doug Harvey of Montreal Canadiens and Red Kelly and Gord Howe of Detroit Red Wings​

Hockey Cards - 1954-55 Parkhurst said:

Last season he again crashed the charmed 20-goal circle for the fifth straight year. Noted for his clean play and gentlemanly conduct, Sid won the Lady Byng trophy in 1951-52 spending only 6 minutes in the penalty box during the entire 70-game schedule. A hard worker, and a fast, smooth skater, he has been consistently among team's top scorers each year.​

Meriden Journal - Aug 25 said:

Sid Smith declared today that he has resigned as captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs to concentrate on improving his play next season Smith said he was slipping as a player because of the added responsability of being the team's captain​

Hockey Cards - 1955-56 Parkhurst said:

A tremendous opportunist and known for his ability to be in the right place at the right time. This resulted in his scoring 33 goals last season to bring his total to 154 in six years in the NHL, an average of better than 25 per season. His great all-around play resulted in Sid winning the All-Star left wing position and the Lady Byng trophy for the second time in 4 years.​

Granby Leader-Mail - Mar 27 said:

Smythe make it plain that the Leafs want to keep the hustling leftwinger. Says Smythe: ''Smith is one of the most popular players on the team. We need a fellow like that around. He will help loosen up the club by taking off some of the pressure.''​

The Windsor Daily Star - Oct 11 said:

Stafford Smythe, chairman of Toronto Maple Leafs' seven-man hockey committee, has disclosed forwards Dick Duff, Tod Sloan and Sid Smith are the team's representative of the National Hockey League Player's Association.​

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - Mar 13 said:

Halls Nomination Made

Nominated in the Veteran's Category are Woody Dumart, Edgar Laprade, Sid Smith and Harry Watson.​

Quotes:

- ''It became my trademark, in a way.The thing was to keep an eye on the puck coming in from the point or in the direction of the net and just make that slight deflection because it threw the goalie off. He's play it for the shot from the point or wherever its from and I'm just sort of cruising in and making a deflection, or sometimes you caused a problem with the goalie. He'd lose sight of it because you are hanging around.'' - Sid Smith

- ''I can't ever recall a player coming from the American League to join a team in the Stanley Cup playoffs performing with the brilliance that Sid Smith has shown us.'' - Hap Day

- ''He use to roam all over the ice and now he's sticking with that wing. And he's learned how to carry the puck in and get around defencemen.'' - Hap Day


Fun & Interesting hockey facts:

- In 1948-49, Smith he led the American Hockey League in scoring with 112 points in 68 games. His total of 55 goals, matched that year by Carl Liscombe, stayed on the record books in the AHL for 34 years
- Account of Sid Smith first NHL goal:

''..out of one of these attacks, Meeker snaffles the puck, lays Sid Smith a pass. Smith hasn't seen much of the puck in his two games in the big time. He recognized it right away though and handled it as if he was born with a rubber plant in his mouth. He had a blond, burly and willing Fernand Flamon to out shuffle, and he did. Then from the wrong side backhanded a shot into the far corner.''
- Late in his career, the Leafs could have traded Smith to Detroit. He really didn't want to leave the City of Toronto and elected to play in Whitby instead.
- At the time of his retirement, only three active players, Gordie Howe, Maurice Richard and Ted Lindsay, had scored more goals. He was the Leafs' top goal scorer of the decade and was involved in 25% of the team's scoring plays during his highly productive stay.
- Smith scored three goals in his last pro game, the Allan Cup championship game
- In 1960, Smith attempted to return to the National Hockey League at the urging of Leafs boss Punch Imlach, but the league did not reinstate him
- The Los Angeles Kings general manager, Larry Regan, contacted his dad concerning a coaching job in L.A. With the Los Angeles situation, Smith made contract demands he knew Kings owner Jack Kent Cooke wouldn't capitulate to


Trades & Injuries:

- On October 15th, 1946, Smith signed as a free agent by the Quebec Aces (QSHL)
- On December 8th, 1946, he signed as a free agent with the Toronto Maple Leafs
- Smith almost had his career ended during a game in March of 1948 after injuring his knee. Smith was placed in the Pittsburgh Hornets' lineup in 1948-49 to rehabilitate the knee and work on his game


Miscellaneous:

- In 1950, Conn Smythe presented Sid Smith with a new car
- After his playing career, Smith worked briefly for Dunlop Tires. He had a gig with Labatts Brewing Company, but the bulk of his business career dealt with selling paper to lithographers and printers.


Internet Sites:
Legends of Hockey -- NHL Player Search -- Player -- Sid Smith
Hockey Then & Now: Sid Smith : Maple Leaf Forever Pt.3
Toronto Maple Leafs Legends: Sid Smith
http://thehockeywriters.com/tml-captains-sid-smith-1955-56
No. 8 Sid Smith -- 1925-2004
USATODAY.com - Ex-Maple Leaf captain Sid Smith dead at 78
Hockey Then & Now: Tips from Sid Smith

 

[ImporterExporter]

Kesler and Fedorov are RW. Neither of them did anything close to what Giroux did in that position.

Now Madden is a LW. When was he ever a good winger?

Giroux, if you actually ask Flyers fans, played very little at RW, ever. He didn't play 3 or 4 years there. IIRC it was roughly about a years worth of games early in his career. He isn't even remotely close to say Joe Malone who had his most dominant season of his career at LW but doesn't get put out there, because well, you need more than 1 dominant year to lay claim to full value at a secondary position.

I already went through this when I drafted him a few years back. I actually went and asked the Flyers board and he did nothing remotely close to being worthy of getting anything near his full value there.

There was a big fuss the year I tried to do the exact same thing you did. He's not a RW. It was fully fleshed out. A person can play him there but his value drops considerably.

I wouldn't put any of the other ones you mentioned at RW either. And I wouldn't put Madden at LW. Not over the full course of a series.

 

[Professor What]

It's probably worth noting, just to be on the safe side, that I can see the possibility of being absent some in the next couple of days. I can see the possibility of power outages because of weather. Hopefully, it won't come to that, but if I vanish for a day or two, I don't want anyone worrying.

 

[Dreakmur]

Giroux, if you actually ask Flyers fans, played very little at RW, ever. He didn't play 3 or 4 years there. IIRC it was roughly about a years worth of games early in his career. He isn't even remotely close to say Joe Malone who had his most dominant season of his career at LW but doesn't get put out there, because well, you need more than 1 dominant year to lay claim to full value at a secondary position.

I already went through this when I drafted him a few years back. I actually went and asked the Flyers board and he did nothing remotely close to being worthy of getting anything near his full value there.

There was a big fuss the year I tried to do the exact same thing you did. He's not a RW. It was fully fleshed out. A person can play him there but his value drops considerably.

I wouldn't put any of the other ones you mentioned at RW either. And I wouldn't put Madden at LW. Not over the full course of a series.

Don’t care about one player. I care about the lack of consistency in people’s criticism. Either you think players can play out of position or you don’t - pick one and stick with it.

 

[VanIslander]

Sid Smith benefited greatly from being the wingman to the last Leafs pivot to win the Hart trophy, a 5-time Stanley Cup champion captain who Conn Smythe said was the greatest face-off artist ever.

Oh, my top-100 pick Ted Kennedy.

 

[tinyzombies]

Sid Smith benefited greatly from being the wingman to the last Leafs pivot to win the Hart trophy, a 5-time Stanley Cup champion captain who Conn Smythe said was the greatest face-off artist ever.

Oh, my top-100 pick Ted Kennedy.

True, but his role with me is on a 3rd line with a guy who is 20 VsX7 Assists better than ol' Teeder.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Don’t care about one player. I care about the lack of consistency in people’s criticism. Either you think players can play out of position or you don’t - pick one and stick with it.

You're preaching to the choir bud. Hope you're not point a finger at me.

I've been arguing it for years. Hell, I was the person who raised a stink about Malone a few years ago because people kept putting him at LW based on 1 amazing year.

I don't subscribe to moving people off a primary position UNLESS they have significant bullet points, generally over at least 2 seasons minimun.

Hence why Giroux CAN play LW and get credit for his full offensive value. He's got 3 1/2 years straight there now, with his best and probably 3/4th best offensive seasons over his career. He never did anything like that in limited time at RW as a pup.

Basically, don't play people out of position unless you're 100% sure they can. I've made that mistake multiple times in the past, because I was in a tough spot and thought I could argue it.

 

[VanIslander]

True, but his role with me is on a 3rd line with a guy who is 20 VsX7 Assists better than ol' Teeder.

Too bad you don't have a HHOFer to pass the puck to like an Eddie Shore or linemate Rod Gilbert. You do have an equivalent to Mike Grant or Cy Wentworth.

 

[overpass]

Kesler and Fedorov are RW. Neither of them did anything close to what Giroux did in that position.

Now Madden is a LW. When was he ever a good winger?

Fedorov was the best player on the most dominant unit of the decade as a “RW” — although positions were very fluid and he could easily be listed as C with Larionov at RW. The Russian Five outscored opponents at a rate of 2-1. He won a Selke trophy and was 5th in Hart voting during this time. That’s a lot more impressive than anything Giroux has accomplished in his career.

 

[tinyzombies]

Too bad you don't have a HHOFer to pass the puck to like an Eddie Shore or linemate Rod Gilbert. You do have an equivalent to Mike Grant or Cy Wentworth.

Erik Karlsson is pretty elite, and his partner is Boivin, also very good offensively. And Gartner scored over 700 goals. That's my third unit (with Jumbo and Sid - 39.2 vsx7 goals) so you're bottom 6 better be ready!

This line can stretch to Gartner with Sid arriving late with speed for loose pucks and feeding Joe to start the pinball machine to the point and back to Sid for a tip. All four guys with speed opening up lanes for Jumbo.

 

[VanIslander]

You have Thornton, Gartner and Fuhr on the ice at the same time.

 

[tinyzombies]

You have Thornton, Gartner and Fuhr on the ice at the same time.

Exactly. On a third unit. Thornton is 8th all-time in vsx7 assists, between Mario and Gordie. Strong on the draw and he has Selke votes and can fight anybody if needed. Before you go into the playoff business, I lived in the Bay Area those years and Thornton was not the problem and he had broken ribs in the 2002 playoffs vs the Habs. Sharks lost xxx vs Kings in 2014 or they would have won the Cup. And maybe also in 2011 without that bad bounce.

Give him two goal scoring wingers:
Gartner scored 708? goals and is decent defensively. And 43 goals in 122 playoff games with underwhelming teams is not bad.
Sid Smith's playoff heroics, two way play and 39.2 vsx7 goals,

Fuhr is a monster in the playoffs (without much help defensively..) other than that one longshot goal and Steve Smith...

Add Karlsson's elite offense (and underrated defense- elite puck stripper and in zone exits, led league one year in blocks, great in transition defense) and Boivin's 2-way play and puck stripping ability... I think it's a good third line but am open to criticism.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Kesler and Fedorov are RW. Neither of them did anything close to what Giroux did in that position.

Now Madden is a LW. When was he ever a good winger?

All his best seasons are at C if I am not mistaken

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Kesler and Fedorov are RW. Neither of them did anything close to what Giroux did in that position.

Now Madden is a LW. When was he ever a good winger?

Prime Madden never played LW regularly, but he was temporarily moved there situationally. He was moved to LW next to C Bobby Holik to shadow the Jagr/Lemieux duo for one series in the 2001 playoffs, and maybe one or two other times in his prime.

Towards beginning and end of Madden's career, he sometimes played LW, but he was not really in his prime then.

IMO, at LW, Madden loses a lot that makes him historically noteworthy, but not everything. He loses his faceoff ability and most of his even strength offense (such as it were). Madden at LW was never able to get in position to get his deceptive shot away, which is what made him a sometimes-threat at the counterattack. He was still a good shadow, but Madden at LW is probably no better than his longtime linemate who regularly lined up at LW and usually doesn't get drafted.

In the ATD, if I'm drafting Madden at "left wing," it's to play limited 4th line minutes at ES and to center the PK.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Fedorov was the best player on the most dominant unit of the decade as a “RW” — although positions were very fluid and he could easily be listed as C with Larionov at RW. The Russian Five outscored opponents at a rate of 2-1. He won a Selke trophy and was 5th in Hart voting during this time. That’s a lot more impressive than anything Giroux has accomplished in his career.

I think it depends on the player and situation a lot. I know some players have expressed a preference that they felt more comfortable in one position or another like Bobby Orr preferring to play right side. I know when I played, even though I shot right, I felt more comfortable on the left side for some reason because I could cut outside more easily and had better angles to the net going the other way.

So I think its important that we use multipositional players appropriately here. Some have proven a level of success at more than one position, and some have proven to be more successful in one position even though they can technically play another position.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Fedorov was the best player on the most dominant unit of the decade as a “RW” — although positions were very fluid and he could easily be listed as C with Larionov at RW. The Russian Five outscored opponents at a rate of 2-1. He won a Selke trophy and was 5th in Hart voting during this time. That’s a lot more impressive than anything Giroux has accomplished in his career.

That unit was awesome, but were they even together a full season? I read recently that they were broken up by the time the playoffs started that year.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

And yes, I know it's my turn. Going through a few options.