ATD 2017 Assassination Thread

[seventieslord]

Intriguing idea.Could call it NorrisVsX or NVsX.Would love to see the results.

A major problem I see with that right off the bat is the way they assign points for voting. Being voted first by one voter is not five times as impressive as being voted 3rd by that voter, but most seasons that's how the points are assigned. For it to make numerical sense, we'd need to recalculate points every year based on something that makes more sense, like 5-4-3, or in recent years, 10-8-7-6-5.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

West Lafayette Lion Tamers

Head Coach: Lester Patrick

Jacques Plante
Evgeni Nabokov

Paul Kariya - Marty Barry - Gordie Howe (A)
Syd Howe - Denis Savard - Dave Taylor
Bob Pulford - Cooney Weiland- Shane Doan (A)
Ed Sandford - Ken Mosdell - Tim Kerr


Scott Stevens (C) - Guy Lapointe
Lester Patrick - Jack Crawford
Glen Harmon - Brent Seabrook

Spares:
F Rejean Houle
D Lars-Erik Sjöberg
C/LW Jack Adams
D Zinetula Bilyaletdinov​

PP1:
Tim Kerr
Denis Savard - Gordie Howe
Guy Lapointe - Paul Kariya

PP2:
Syd Howe - Marty Barry - Cooney Weiland
Lester Patrick - Brent Seabrook

PK1:
Ken Mosdell - Bob Pulford
Scott Stevens - Jack Crawford

PK2:
Syd Howe - Cooney Weiland
Guy Lapointe - Brent Seabrook



Forward Minutes

Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
Gordie Howe | 16 | 5 | 2 | 23
Syd Howe | 13 | 3 | 3 | 19
Paul Kariya | 14 | 5 | 0 |19
Marty Barry | 14 | 3 | 0 |17
Denis Savard | 12 | 4 | 0 | 16
Bob Pulford | 12 | 0 | 4 | 16
Cooney Weiland | 11 | 2 | 2 | 15
Dave Taylor | 12 | 0 | 0 | 12
Shane Doan | 12 | 0 | 0 | 12
Ken Mosdell | 8 | 0 | 3 | 11
Tim Kerr | 6 | 4 | 0 | 10
Ed Sandford | 7 | 0 | 0 | 7
TOTAL | 138 | 26* | 14 | 177*

Defensemen Minutes

Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
Scott Stevens | 20 | 0 | 4 | 24
Guy Lapointe | 17 | 4 | 2 | 23
Lester Patrick | 17 | 3 | 0 | 20
Jack Crawford | 16 | 0 | 4 | 20
Glen Harmon | 11 | 0 | 1 | 13
Brent Seabrook | 11 | 2 | 3 | 16
TOTAL | 92 | 9* | 14 | 115*

*Kariya 5 minutes PP point

Coaching: Patrick is a top-5 coach of all time, easily making him an elite coach in this draft. It appears that there will be no serious clashes between the coach and players.

First line: The chemistry on this line is great as I believe it has every ingredient in order to be successful. This line is a serious offensive threat, but it is still defensively responsible. Talent wise, Howe is the #1 W of all-time, so not much else to say about him. Barry is a very weak first liner, even though I think he's a bit underrated on the HOH C list. Honestly, I'd have him on par with Perreault on that list, putting him in the early 40s, which means he's an average 2nd line C at best. Kariya is a below average #1 LW. As it stands right now, you've got an average 2nd line C, the GOAT W, and a below average LW. The sum of the talent levels seems to be average, with Howe recouping a lot of the loss.

Second line: Another very well built line. Savard will be able to play up to his strengths while Howe and Taylor do the dirty work. In terms of talent, Howe is elite as a 2nd line LW. Taylor is an average 2nd liner. However, Savard is ranked 50th on the HOH list, which would make him the bare minimum requirement of a 2nd line C. But, that's in terms of overall talent. Savard's low ranking is due to him not bringing much else to the table outside of scoring. On this line, his only job is to score, and he can do that as well as many weak 1st line Cs or elite 2nd line Cs.

Third line: This line seems neither to be a shutdown line, due to the presence of Doan, nor is it a significant menace offensively (Doan and Pulford are average scorers at EVS according to seventies' table). This line seems to be something in between the two, which is fine. In terms of talent, Pulford is an elite 3rd line LW, Weiland is average, and Doan seems to be below average for a 3rd liner.

Fourth line: The fourth line looks fine. Not much else to say

1st pairing: Stevens is a below average #1 D, but Lapointe is an above average #2. It sums up to about average. The fit between the two is good.

2nd pairing: Patrick is an average #3. Crawford is a below average #3 playing in a #4's role so he should be elite at this role. Again, looks like the proto-typical stay at home guy paired with rushing guy pairing.

3rd pairing: Good. Nothing stands out in a bad or good way.

Goalies: Plante is the #3 best goalie, so obviously he's elite at this level. Nabokov is a below average back-up, but that shouldn't matter since the surplus from Plante more than makes up for it, and the weight assigned to starting G and backup G should not be 50-50.

Powerplay: First unit looks great. Kerr is a solid net front presence, but is his talent level that of a #1 PP option? Second unit also looks decent, but I'm not so sure about Seabrook's viability as a PP option. I might be wrong since I don't have VsXD data, but Harmon could possibly have a better score.

Penalty Kill: Excellent first and second PK. Probably top-5 PK unit in the league.

Overall: Very good team. No glaring weaknesses, and this team is definitely one of the favourites to win it all.

 

[Sturminator]

A major problem I see with that right off the bat is the way they assign points for voting. Being voted first by one voter is not five times as impressive as being voted 3rd by that voter, but most seasons that's how the points are assigned. For it to make numerical sense, we'd need to recalculate points every year based on something that makes more sense, like 5-4-3, or in recent years, 10-8-7-6-5.

Yep...that's the issue. We would have to recalculate the Norris voting by hand, and even then, I worry that the results would be an uneven mess. We could try it with all-star voting, as well, but that would be even more messy (messier?).

Also, the whole nature of a voting system the goal of which is to award a single trophy is likely to yield results of dubious value once we get past the top 5-6 (guessing) in any given season. Norris voting just isn't set up to provide an accurate gauge of the performance of defensemen who weren't really among the best in any given season, unlike points (the VsX data set), which do not distinguish based on "star power". The problem of outliers is also not solved in an NVsX system simply by pegging the math to the #2 finisher because Norris voting, unlike scoring, is a zero sum game. And that's probably the real kicker for me. No...sadly, I don't think a "Norris shares" metric would really further our understanding of relative performance the way VsX has for forward scoring. Bad math is worse than no math, at all.

 

[Iceman]

Coach: Tommy Gorman


Bun Cook - Sid Abel (C) - Jaromir Jagr
Sweeney Schriner - Peter Forsberg - Vic Stasiuk
Gilles Tremblay - Ralph Backstrom - Claude Provost
Sid Smith - Kirk Muller - Rick Vaive

King Clancy (A) - Emile "Butch" Bouchard (A)
Gary Suter - Bill White
Vitaly Davydov - Lennart Svedberg

Bill Durnan
Mike Liut


Spares: Vincent Lecavalier, C - Bobby Smith, C - Johnny Peirson, RW - Robyn Regehr, D



PP1: Sweeney Schriner - Peter Forsberg - Jaromir Jagr - Gary Suter - King Clancy
PP2: Bun Cook - Sid Abel - Vic Stasiuk - Rick Vaive - Lennart Svedberg

PK1: Ralph Backstrom - Claude Provost - Bill White - Emile "Butch" Bouchard
PK2: Gilles Tremblay - Kirk Muller - Vitaly Davydov - King Clancy



Forward Minutes

Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
Jaromir Jagr| 14 | 5 | 0 | 19
Peter Forsberg| 13 | 5 | 0 |18
Sweeney Schriner| 13 | 4| 0 | 17
Sid Abel| 14 | 3 | 0 | 17
Bun Cook| 14 | 3 | 0 |17
Vic Stasiuk| 13 | 3 | 0 | 16
Ralph Backstrom |12 | 0 | 4 | 16
Claude Provost| 12 | 0 | 4 | 16
Gilles Tremblay| 12/ 9 * | 0 | 3 | 15
Kirk Muller| 7 | 0 | 3 | 10
Rick Vaive| 7 | 2 | 0 | 9
Sid Smith| 7/ 10 * | 0 | 0 | 7
TOTAL | 138 | 25 | 14 | 177

*Depending on the matchup, Smith might see more ice time for some extra offense.

Defensemen Minutes

Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
King Clancy | 18 | 4 | 3 | 26
Butch Bouchard | 18 | 0 | 4 | 22
Bill White | 16 | 0 | 4 | 20
Gary Suter | 15 | 4 | 0 | 19
Lennart Svedberg | 13 | 2 | 0 | 15
Vitaly Davydov | 12 | 0 | 3 | 15
TOTAL | 92 | 10 | 14 | 116

 

[tony d]

i'll review this roster today:

My comments are in bold under each roster group:

West Lafayette Lion Tamers

Head Coach: Lester Patrick

Patrick is one of the top 4 of 5 coaches all time. I had him as my coach 1 year,
very good pick.

Jacques Plante
Evgeni Nabokov

Jacques Plante is one of the top goalies all time. Behind Roy and Hasek but in the Brodeur Sawchuk range (3-5).

Paul Kariya - Marty Barry - Gordie Howe (A)
Syd Howe - Denis Savard - Dave Taylor
Bob Pulford - Cooney Weiland- Shane Doan (A)
Ed Sandford - Ken Mosdell - Tim Kerr

Forward Line 1:

Kariya was a special player, a guy who maybe could have been so much more had it not been for injury. Still during his prime there weren't many better in the league than him. Marty Barry was a guy I looked at when I went with Mackay. Still he's towards the lower end of #1 centres here so that may become a weakness for your team. Gordie Howe won't be a weakness though, such an awesome player, greatest right winger ever, one of the big 4. You ask him to do something on the ice he'll do it. Overall a good 1st line but it may get dragged down by your #1 centre.

Forward Line 2:

Syd Howe is another good pick, if you ask me he can switch time with Barry at 1st line centre (Barry played some left wing as well), this might be a good idea for you to do. Denis Savard's another good 1. 1 of the most creative players ever. I'd love to see him and Kariya work their magic out there which we'll see on the power play. Dave Taylor will bring some meat to this line. Can chip in offensively. Overall a solid 2nd line, good job.

Forward Line 3:

Pulford could end up being 1 of the top 3rd line left wingers in this. Very good defensively. I looked at him as well during this draft (He was on my list when I went with 1 of my checking line guys). Reading up on Cooney Weiland he seems to be more of a defensive guy than offensive guy; That makes sense in our division where defensive centres are a plenty. Good pick. Doan is not the most defensive guy in the world but he'll provide a bit of grit. Overall a decent 3rd line.

Forward Line 4;

Ed Sandford seems like a good playmaking power forward which is always good to have on your 4th line. Mosdell's there as a defensive consience for the line. He won't add much offense though but with Sandford and Kerr that won't be a worry.
Tim Kerr is going to bring lots of goal scoring to your bottom 6 and will get a good net presence. Overall a good 4th line.

Scott Stevens (C) - Guy Lapointe
Lester Patrick - Jack Crawford
Glen Harmon - Brent Seabrook

Defense Pairing 1:

Stevens is in the 16-20 range I guess for defenseman here. The guy was a rough customer. Him and Howe together should be something else and will take advantage of smaller lineups. Guy Lapointe's going to give this 1st pairing some good 2 way play, I look for him to be an offensive role here given Steven's physical play. Overall a very good 1st pairing here.

Defense Pairing 2:

When it comes to #3 defenseman here there aren't many better than Lester Patrick, very good offensively. I still ? how he can coach your team and play defense at the same time? Crawford's going to be more defensive than anything which makes him a good partner for the more offensive Patrick. Overall a classic offense defense pairing that I always try to go for, good job.

Defense Pairing 3:

Glen Harmon's pick was widely celebrated and rightfully so, guy could be one of the top #5 guys here. I certainly looked at him for a pick earlier in the draft. The Seabrook pick raised a few eyebrows. I didn't mind, he's a fine pick but should only see time as your #6. Overall a good 3rd pairing.

Spares:

Your spares all look good. You can use Houle in matches against defensive opponents. Sjoberg and Bilyaetdinov can fill in for Seabrook if need be.

Spares:
F Rejean Houle
D Lars-Erik Sjöberg
C/LW Jack Adams
D Zinetula Bilyaletdinov

Special Teams:

That 1st Power Play could be one of the best in the league; Kerr, Howe, Savard and Kariya are all good ones. Lapointe's good as well. Your PP 2 with Patrick's going to be good as well. Not much to say about your PK 2 but maybe Harmon could be subbed in for Seabrook?

PP1:
Tim Kerr
Denis Savard - Gordie Howe
Guy Lapointe - Paul Kariya

PP2:
Syd Howe - Marty Barry - Cooney Weiland
Lester Patrick - Brent Seabrook

PK1:
Ken Mosdell - Bob Pulford
Scott Stevens - Jack Crawford

PK2:
Syd Howe - Cooney Weiland
Guy Lapointe - Brent Seabrook

Final Thoughts:

Another solid entry by 2 of the drafting stalwarts here. Good work by both here.
Good luck to them.

Forward Minutes
Player ES PP PK Total
Gordie Howe 16 5 2 23
Syd Howe 13 3 3 19
Paul Kariya 14 5 0 19
Marty Barry 14 3 0 17
Denis Savard 12 4 0 16
Bob Pulford 12 0 4 16
Cooney Weiland 11 2 2 15
Dave Taylor 12 0 0 12
Shane Doan 12 0 0 12
Ken Mosdell 8 0 3 11
Tim Kerr 6 4 0 10
Ed Sandford 7 0 0 7
TOTAL 138 26* 14 177*

Defensemen Minutes
Player ES PP PK Total
Scott Stevens 20 0 4 24
Guy Lapointe 17 4 2 23
Lester Patrick 17 3 0 20
Jack Crawford 16 0 4 20
Glen Harmon 11 0 1 13
Brent Seabrook 11 2 3 16
TOTAL 92 9* 14 115*
*Kariya 5 minutes PP point

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

Coach: Peter Laviolette
Assistant Coach: Frank Patrick
Captain: Dit Clapper
Alternates: Sylvio Mantha, George Armstrong

Anatoli Firsov --- Cyclone Taylor --- Jarome Iginla
Dean Prentice --- Henri Richard --- Rod Gilbert
Smokey Harris --- Russell Bowie --- George Armstrong (A)
Bob Bourne --- Vladimir Shadrin --- Floyd Curry

Bill Gadsby --- Dit Clapper (C)
Frank Patrick --- Sylvio Mantha (A)
Kevin Lowe --- Yuri Liapkin

Georges Vezina
Chuck Rayner



​

PP1: Cyclone Taylor - Bill Gadsby - Anatoli Firsov - Russell Bowie - Jarome Iginla
PP2: Frank Patrick - Yuri Liapkin - Dit Clapper - Henri Richard - Rod Gilbert

PK1: Sylvio Mantha - Dit Clapper - Vladimir Shadrin - Floyd Curry
PK2: Kevin Lowe - Bill Gadsby - Bob Bourne - George Armstrong

Spares: Billy Burch (C/LW), Dallas Smith (D), Harry Hyland (RW)\

Forward Minutes

Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
Anatoli Firsov| 14 | 5| 0 | 19
Cyclone Taylor| 14 | 5 | 0 | 19
Jarome Iginla| 14 | 4 | 0 |18
Dean Prentice| 13 | 0 | 1 |14
Henri Richard| 15 | 2 | 1 | 18
Rod Gilbert | 13 | 3 | 0 | 16
Smokey Harris| 12 | 0 | 0 | 13
Russell Bowie| 11 | 4 | 0 | 15
George Armstrong| 11 | 0 | 3 | 14
Bob Bourne | 7 | 0 | 2 | 9
Vladimir Shadrin| 6 | 0 | 4 | 10
Floyd Curry | 7 | 0 | 3 | 10
TOTAL | 138 | 23 | 14 | 178

Defensemen Minutes

Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
Bill Gadsby | 17 | 3 | 3 | 23
Dit Clapper| 17 | 3 | 4 | 24
Frank Patrick| 16 | 3 | 0 | 19
Sylvio Mantha| 16 | 0 | 4 | 20
Kevin Lowe| 13 | 0 | 3 | 16
Yuri Liapkin | 13 | 3 | 0 | 13
TOTAL | 92 | 12 | 14 | 115

I thought after the Firsov trade it shfifted the entire power structure of the ATD and RB became a real player. This is one of the better efforts I've seen this draft:

Offense:

One of the stronger top lines in the league, but not as good as Jarek's (Referring to an earlier debate). Firsov and Taylor is a frieghtening wave of out of world speed and puck skills, with Iginla bringing the muscle. Not much else other than really good line, one of the most impressive in the league.

Richard is quite obviously a really strong #2 centreman, but he's really far and away the best player on the line here. From a talent perspective Dean Prentice seems like one of the worst top 6'ers in the draft. Id question Rod Gilbert't current placing in a top 60 wings list, if he's even on mine. He's fine here, but obviously not on Henri's same dimension.

This third line drew rave reviews, and I agree it's some fine insulation around Bowie. As long as Lavi and his crew can get the right maytchups, Bowie can really do damage against trapped third pairings.

Defense:

Two legitimate but low end #1 D's with excellent chemistry, making a very good top pairing IMO. It's also nice the size and toughness between them. Looking at things as a whole, this team might have the best starting 6 in the draft with Vezina-Gadsby-Clapper-Firsov-Taylor-Iginla.

Ok second pairing, Frank Patrick as you mentioned does not seem ready to be in a top four role in a league this small. This could be an aquillies heel of this team.

NOt much to comment on with the third pair, I'm not a Kevin Lowe fan, but he's fine to stay at home and defend in a limited role.

Goaltending:

Vezina remains a pretty ''sexy'' asset in the ATD. Top 10 goaltending means you'kk have the advantage more often than not.

Coaching:

As mentioned earlier, Laviolette gets to work with some fine talent, but as a technician behind the bench he will be overmatched most nights. He preaches offense and attack, which fits this group.

Overall:

Your skills as a GM have skyrocketed RB, noticably from last year onto this year. This has to be a top 5 contender for me, and a club I'll watch out for. Well done.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Aside: I wonder if we wouldn't be better off looking at Norris voting in terms of vote shares in a VsX style fashion pegged against the second place finisher in each season. I'm sure Bobby Orr would break this scale just like he broke (breaks?) VsX, but it might be a better way of evaluating defensemen on the whole.

I just so happened to be browsing the ATD forum tonight. I was able to do this in Excel in about five minutes. Here's the top 50. Apologies in advance if this contains any undrafted players (I'd have to think that after the end of a draft with 600+ players, every one of these has already been selected).

Top fifty defensemen - "VsX" in Norris trophy voting - 1954 to 2016

Rank | Player | VxS
1 | Bobby Orr | 23.7
2 | Ray Bourque | 19.6
3 | Doug Harvey | 19.5
4 | Nicklas Lidstrom | 15.6
5 | Denis Potvin | 9.7
6 | Pierre Pilote | 9.3
7 | Chris Chelios | 8.6
8 | Paul Coffey | 8.5
9 | Brian Leetch | 7.4
10 | Brad Park | 6.9
11 | Zdeno Chara | 6.7
12 | Larry Robinson | 6.7
13 | Al MacInnis | 6.5
14 | Bill Gadsby | 5.9
15 | Red Kelly | 5.6
16 | Tim Horton | 5.4
17 | Scott Stevens | 5
18 | Chris Pronger | 4.6
19 | Borje Salming | 4.6
20 | Jacques Laperriere | 4.5
21 | Rod Langway | 4.4
22 | Shea Weber | 4
23 | Scott Niedermayer | 3.9
24 | Marcel Pronovost | 3.8
25 | Drew Doughty | 3.5
26 | Duncan Keith | 3.4
27 | Mark Howe | 3.4
28 | Doug Wilson | 3.4
29 | Rob Blake | 3.4
30 | Erik Karlsson | 3.2
31 | Carl Brewer | 2.8
32 | Tom Johnson | 2.7
33 | Harry Howell | 2.6
34 | JC Tremblay | 2.6
35 | Allan Stanley | 2.5
36 | Guy Lapointe | 2.4
37 | Mike Green | 2.2
38 | Larry Murphy | 2.1
39 | Sergei Gonchar | 2
40 | PK Subban | 1.9
41 | Fern Flaman | 1.9
42 | Bill White | 1.8
43 | Ryan Suter | 1.7
44 | Kris Letang | 1.6
45 | Pat Stapleton | 1.5
46 | Serge Savard | 1.5
47 | Phil Housley | 1.5
48 | Vladimir Konstantinov | 1.3
49 | Doug Mohns | 1.3
50 | Jim Neilson | 1.3

Yes, Bobby Orr still breaks the scale. I found it interesting how close Bourque and Harvey are - separated only by a decimal point.

Brad Park, who had the misfortune of finishing second to Orr four times (and twice more to Potvin) gets a solid boost.

Taking into account his years before the Norris trophy existed, Red Kelly would at least move past Chelios, and possibly as high as fifth place.

A major problem I see with that right off the bat is the way they assign points for voting. Being voted first by one voter is not five times as impressive as being voted 3rd by that voter, but most seasons that's how the points are assigned. For it to make numerical sense, we'd need to recalculate points every year based on something that makes more sense, like 5-4-3, or in recent years, 10-8-7-6-5.

This is a fair point. To be clear I took the voting data, as it existed, without any modifications. What you're suggesting, although probably useful, would probably take closer to five weeks than five minutes.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Vancouver Millionares

1915 Stanley Cup champions
Home rink: Denman Arena (1911)
Capacity: 10,500
GM: monster_bertuzzi

Head coach: 'Toe' Blake

Dickie Moore - Joe Sakic (C) - Dany Heatley
Alexander Yakushev - Eric Lindros - Phil Watson
Jiri Holik - Duke Keats - Ron Ellis
Alex Tanguay - Bobby Holik - Ryan Kesler

Red Kelly - Jack Stewart (A)
Herb Gardiner - Ebbie Goodfellow (A)
Dave Burrows - Kevin Hatcher

Jiri Holocek
George Hainsworth

Reserves: Alex Pietrangelo D, Miroslav Satan RW, Simon Gagne LW, Willie Mitchell D

pp1: Goodfellow - Kelly - Lindros - Sakic - Yakushev
pp2: K.Hatcher - Gardiner - Heatley - Keats - Moore
pk1: Stewart - Goodfellow - Kesler - Holik
pk2: Kelly - Gardiner - Sakic - Watson

Coaching Staff Notes:

- In the event we lose the Big E for a 10-game stretch, Keats moves up the depth chart with either Watson or Kesler moving to 3C.

- Gardiner-Stewart likely ''last minute'' protection pair.

-Want Miro Satan to see at least 30-40 games, Phil Watson a possible scratch candidate against certain opponents.

I'll return the favor

Coaching: Blake is a top 2 coach for me all time and will give you a serious edge in most games. Looks to be a well rounded roster which I think Blake will like.

Leadership: Excellent batch of leaders on this team and few more who could possibly wear letters for this team.

First Line: I love 2/3s of it. Moore and Sakic will be an awful pairing to play with both balanced offensive guys, both willing to back check and are adept playmakers and shooters. Then there's Heatley...he just looks out of place to me, it works I think and it's around leage average to me but I'd willing to hear why you think Heatley is worthy of a place on a first line.

Second Line: Excellent unit, Yakushev could pass as weak first liner so having him on your second line is a strength, and Lindros is well Lindros and is an average second line center in the grand scheme of things for me. Watson completes the unit and it's probably above average.

Third Line: I had Keats last year and I couldn't figure out the best way to use him, I like how you've done it this year shaping it into a two line that will match up well against other units. I just don't know what to think of him, inspite of his footspeed he was dominant for a stretch. Will he be able to check speedy centers I'm unsure. On a talent level it's definitely on par with the rest of the league and will be able to chip in some points.

First Pair: Crazy good top pair, Kelly is a stud 1D and Stewart an average to above average D in my books and it has everything you need in a D pair not much to say. It's among my favorite pairings in the draft.

Second Pair: Your second pair is also stellar, it makes sense with 50in07 on your top line once you look at this D corps it's nasty how good it is. These two make an excellent two way pairing with Goodfellow being an average 2, so having him as 3 is an insane luxury. Maybe the best second pairing in the league.

Third Pair: Not much to say good players in the right slots

Goaltending: Below average starter but behind those D Holecek will have a pretty easy time.

Overall: A strong entry and a worthy competitor for the bloodiest and most competitive division in this ATD. I could see this team going places off the back of it's center depth and excellent defense. Good job

 

[ResilientBeast]

I thought after the Firsov trade it shfifted the entire power structure of the ATD and RB became a real player. This is one of the better efforts I've seen this draft:

Offense:

One of the stronger top lines in the league, but not as good as Jarek's (Referring to an earlier debate). Firsov and Taylor is a frieghtening wave of out of world speed and puck skills, with Iginla bringing the muscle. Not much else other than really good line, one of the most impressive in the league.

Richard is quite obviously a really strong #2 centreman, but he's really far and away the best player on the line here. From a talent perspective Dean Prentice seems like one of the worst top 6'ers in the draft. Id question Rod Gilbert't current placing in a top 60 wings list, if he's even on mine. He's fine here, but obviously not on Henri's same dimension.

This third line drew rave reviews, and I agree it's some fine insulation around Bowie. As long as Lavi and his crew can get the right maytchups, Bowie can really do damage against trapped third pairings.

Defense:

Two legitimate but low end #1 D's with excellent chemistry, making a very good top pairing IMO. It's also nice the size and toughness between them. Looking at things as a whole, this team might have the best starting 6 in the draft with Vezina-Gadsby-Clapper-Firsov-Taylor-Iginla.

Ok second pairing, Frank Patrick as you mentioned does not seem ready to be in a top four role in a league this small. This could be an aquillies heel of this team.

NOt much to comment on with the third pair, I'm not a Kevin Lowe fan, but he's fine to stay at home and defend in a limited role.

Goaltending:

Vezina remains a pretty ''sexy'' asset in the ATD. Top 10 goaltending means you'kk have the advantage more often than not.

Coaching:

As mentioned earlier, Laviolette gets to work with some fine talent, but as a technician behind the bench he will be overmatched most nights. He preaches offense and attack, which fits this group.

Overall:

Your skills as a GM have skyrocketed RB, noticably from last year onto this year. This has to be a top 5 contender for me, and a club I'll watch out for. Well done.

Just a few comments, I think Gilbert is a worthy second liner and probably average in that role. I'm not aiming to sell him as anything special in that role. He's 25th in RW VsX and I think belongs on the second line in a draft this size. Prentice in weighted LW VsX is ranked 50th which would make him in terms of pure offence a bottom of the barrel selection for 2LW. But with his other assets I think he's certainly a low end option but that gets balanced by the best 2C in the draft and an average to above average 2RW.

If Frank Patrick is the closest thing my team has to Achilles heel I'm pretty happy he is a weak 4D with a strong 3D so I think on average the pairing is pretty close to average skill wise.

Thanks for the compliment, I do really love my team from last year Blake - Abel - Cook as a top line *drool*

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

I'll return the favor

Coaching: Blake is a top 2 coach for me all time and will give you a serious edge in most games. Looks to be a well rounded roster which I think Blake will like.

Leadership: Excellent batch of leaders on this team and few more who could possibly wear letters for this team.

First Line: I love 2/3s of it. Moore and Sakic will be an awful pairing to play with both balanced offensive guys, both willing to back check and are adept playmakers and shooters. Then there's Heatley...he just looks out of place to me, it works I think and it's around leage average to me but I'd willing to hear why you think Heatley is worthy of a place on a first line.

Second Line: Excellent unit, Yakushev could pass as weak first liner so having him on your second line is a strength, and Lindros is well Lindros and is an average second line center in the grand scheme of things for me. Watson completes the unit and it's probably above average.

Third Line: I had Keats last year and I couldn't figure out the best way to use him, I like how you've done it this year shaping it into a two line that will match up well against other units. I just don't know what to think of him, inspite of his footspeed he was dominant for a stretch. Will he be able to check speedy centers I'm unsure. On a talent level it's definitely on par with the rest of the league and will be able to chip in some points.

First Pair: Crazy good top pair, Kelly is a stud 1D and Stewart an average to above average D in my books and it has everything you need in a D pair not much to say. It's among my favorite pairings in the draft.

Second Pair: Your second pair is also stellar, it makes sense with 50in07 on your top line once you look at this D corps it's nasty how good it is. These two make an excellent two way pairing with Goodfellow being an average 2, so having him as 3 is an insane luxury. Maybe the best second pairing in the league.

Third Pair: Not much to say good players in the right slots

Goaltending: Below average starter but behind those D Holecek will have a pretty easy time.

Overall: A strong entry and a worthy competitor for the bloodiest and most competitive division in this ATD. I could see this team going places off the back of it's center depth and excellent defense. Good job

Appreciate the review. I'm proud of my defense so for it to get love like that is awesome.

Just about Heatley, of course he;s a weak link on my team - but where I got him, was there a better option available? I don't think there was. It's the price you pay for locking up the best top four D in the draft. He has a 7 year score of 81.5 after all, what about guys like Gillies, Tkachuk, Foyston, Elias etc. Are these guys any more legit top liners than the All Star?

 

[ResilientBeast]

Appreciate the review. I'm proud of my defense so for it to get love like that is awesome.

Just about Heatley, of course he;s a weak link on my team - but where I got him, was there a better option available? I don't think there was. He has a 7 year score of 81.5 after all, what about guys like Gillies, Tkachuk, Foyston, Elias etc. Are these guys any more legit top liners than the All Star?

Gillies shouldn't be IMO but those other three provide a provide more all round game. Though reading his bio from 2014 maybe he has a little more all round game than I give him credit for.

 

[Dreakmur]

This third line drew rave reviews, and I agree it's some fine insulation around Bowie. As long as Lavi and his crew can get the right maytchups, Bowie can really do damage against trapped third pairings.

I don't see it.

Bowie probably belongs on a 3rd line in a draft this size. If he would have landed on a 2nd line, he'd be one of the weakest centers there. Armstrong is an excellent intangibles guy, though he doesn't really help offensively. Harris probably should drop into the MLD with this number of teams.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I don't see it.

Bowie probably belongs on a 3rd line in a draft this size. If he would have landed on a 2nd line, he'd be one of the weakest centers there. Armstrong is an excellent intangibles guy, though he doesn't really help offensively. Harris probably should drop into the MLD with this number of teams.

Why do you think Harris should drop, make the case? Also Bowie's style of play relies heavily on him having the puck on his stick 99% of the time his teams are in possession so Armstrong is a good fit since he'll do all the work to let Bowie do his thing.

If Bowie would be one of the weakest second line centers that would mean he's good in the third line role.

 

[Dreakmur]

Why do you think Harris should drop, make the case? Also Bowie's style of play relies heavily on him having the puck on his stick 99% of the time his teams are in possession so Armstrong is a good fit since he'll do all the work to let Bowie do his thing.

If Bowie would be one of the weakest second line centers that would mean he's good in the third line role.

Bowie definitely is good in a 3rd line role, but it's not overpowering or anything. He's pretty close to where he should be.


Harris was a middling offensive player with the exception of the 3 seasons he played with a peak Cyclone Taylor. His intangibles are also very poorly fleshed out.

As I've said before, his "glue guy" reputation seems to be a result of my pimping of him a few years ago - basically by riding a minimal number of quotes, some of which may not even have been about him.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Harris was a middling offensive player with the exception of the 3 seasons he played with a peak Cyclone Taylor. His intangibles are also very poorly fleshed out.

As I've said before, his "glue guy" reputation seems to be a result of my pimping of him a few years ago - basically by riding a minimal number of quotes, some of which may not even have been about him.

Well...did you read my bio I've added more quotes about him, I agree he's not a good fit as the primary physical or defensive presence but as the second best guy in that role on the line I think he definitely belongs in an ATD this size.

Statistics

1912-13 - 14 Goals - 20 Points - 2nd League Wide
1913-14 - 14 Goals - 17 Points - 10th League Wide
1914-15 - 14 Goals - 17 Points - 10th League Wide
1915-16 - 10 Goals - 16 Points - 11th League Wide
1916-17 - 18 Goals - 31 Points - 7th League Wide
1917-18 - 5 Goals - 11 Points - 12th League Wide (missed half the season)
1918-19 - 20 Goals - 26 Points - 3rd League Wide
1919-20 - 14 Goals - 24 Points - 4th League Wide
1920-21 - 15 Goals - 32 Points - 1st League Wide
1921-22 - 10 Goals - 14 Points - 10th League Wide
1922-23 - 10 Goals - 16 Points - 13th League Wide
1923-24 - 8 Goals - 18 Points - 7th League Wide

Summary of Points Finishes: (bolded might have been skewed by playing with Taylor though Harris outscored Taylor in their first full season together)
1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10, 10, 10, 11, 12, 13

Summary of Goals Finishes:
2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 9, 9, 12, 13* 14, 16

Summary of Assist Finishes:

1, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6*, 6, 9, 11, 11, 16, 18

(*1918-19 Season where missed half the games)

His offensive resume is pretty fine IMO for this point in my bio I breakdown his career and his PPG is actually the same when he played in Portland versus his three years playing with prime Taylor.

The three seasons Harris was playing with "peak" Taylor (1912-1914, 1918-19) Ages (22, 23, 28)
Goals: 48 - 0.94117 G/game
Assists: 15 - 0.29411 A/game
Points: 63 - 1.235 Pts/game
Games Played:51

Seasons in Portland (1914-1918) Ages (24 - 27)
Goals: 61 - 0.884 G/game
Assists: 25 - 0.3623 A/game
Points: 86 - 1,2464 Pts/game
Games Played: 69

The seasons after Taylor was passed his prime (1919-1924) Ages (29-33)
Goals: 57 - 0.47899
Assists: 47 - 0.3949
Points: 104 - 0.8739
Games Played: 119

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

MONTREAL CANADIENS



GM: BenchBrawl

Captain: Derian Hatcher
Assistant: Bryan Trottier
Assistant: Shea Weber
Assistant: Doug Harvey

HEAD COACH

Al Arbour

ROSTER

Patrik Elias - Bryan Trottier (A) - Bernard Geoffrion
Paul Thompson - Mike Modano - Glenn Anderson
Jamie Benn - Frank Fredrickson - Tony Amonte
Dave Andreychuk - Gregg Sheppard - Jerry Toppazzini

Doug Harvey (A) - Shea Weber (A)
Derian Hatcher (C) - Georges Boucher
Jimmy Watson - Ted Green

Frank Brimsek
Carey Price

Spares: Joe Pavelski, Marian Gaborik, Brian Campbell, Bill Thoms

PP1: Andreychuk - Trottier - Fredrickson - Harvey - Geoffrion
PP2: Thompson - Modano - Elias - Weber - Boucher

PK1: Modano - Toppazzini - Hatcher - Harvey
PK2: Trottier - Sheppard - Boucher - Weber


Forward Minutes

Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
Trottier | 14 | 4 | 3 | 21
Modano| 13 | 3 | 4 | 20
Geoffrion | 14 | 5* | 0 | 19
Fredrickson | 13 | 4 | 0 | 17
Elias | 14 | 3 | 0 | 17
Thompson| 13 | 3 | 0 | 16
Anderson| 13 | 0 | 0 | 13
Benn | 13 | 0 | 0 | 13
Amonte | 13 | 0 | 0 | 13
Toppazzini | 6 | 0 | 4 | 10
Andreychuk | 6 | 4 | 0 | 10
Sheppard | 6 | 0 | 3 | 9
TOTAL | 138 | 26* | 14 | 178*

Defensemen Minutes

Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
Harvey | 20 | 5 | 5 | 30
Weber | 17 | 2 | 2 | 21
Boucher | 17 | 2 | 2 | 21
Hatcher | 15 | 0 | 5 | 20
Green | 15 | 0 | 0 | 15
Watson | 8 | 0 | 0 | 8
TOTAL | 92 | 9* | 14 | 115*

*Geoffrion plays the point on the PP
​

Montreal Review:

Offense:

Geoffrion will be the main trigger man for this line, he was similar in some ways to Bossy, correct? Should fit like a glove with Trottier. Elias has every capability of a top unit glue guy, but like I criticized Foyston, when your rating is under 80 at 25 teams it starts to seem scrubbish. Trottier-Geoffrion is a strong duo.

Good overall 2nd line. Modano is always a player you want on your roster. Thompson could easily play on a top line and has two-way qualities about him similar to Modano, they are a little soft however which makes Anderson a decent finish to the line and the top 6. Glenn brings jam around the net and he'll stick up for his line mates, but he's a below average 2nd liner IMO.

Really feels like a third scoring line. They're going to have to be because I don't know how good they are defensively. Well, Fredrickson was a very good all-around player that was big and tough and Amonte was a great skater. Amonte's Selke record is severel lacking for supposively having this defensive ability.

Defense:

Very strong top pair that could Rival mine. The games between our teams could turn into blood baths, lol. Harvey is Harvey, the consensus 2nd best D of all time. Excellent chemistry with Weber the big right hand shot, these two should be nasty and dominant out there.

Strong #3 in Buck and then a pretty meh #4 in Hatcher. The chemistry is fine, I just dont know if they stand out as above average. Hatcher sure adds to the theme of ass-kicking from the defense.

Third pair won't have to worry about helping to generate offense - that's Harvey, Weber, and Buck's job...they're here to crush bones and protect the net.

Goaltending:

The netminding and defense in our division really was something else this year. Frank Brimsek is the fourth best goaltender in this division, thats insane. Where would Price rank here today? It's something worth looking into.

Coaching:

This is why we take Blake and Arbour when we did - with the insane run on coaches that follows. This team has elite coaching with Arbour and he should love riding the top unit axis of Harvey-Trottier-Geoffrion, just like Potvin-Trottier-Bossy.


Overall:

You know I think the world of your hockey knowledge and skills as a GM Reen. Another strong team here, we knew our division as going to be a pitbull fight. This is a team with all kinds of character and toughness, very good goaltending, great coaching. Id have liked to have seen another elite goalscorer other than Geoffrion. THere doesn't seem to be a dedicated checking unit on this roster which will indeed take away some of the production you can expect out of Trottier and Modano. Some minor issues but overall another strong entry.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Dreakmur because I can I see you're reviewing your matchup with 87and71 from last year. In a 26 team ATD Bowie and Harris weren't 2nd liners but in 25 team ATD they're most certainly third liners

 

[Dreakmur]

Dreakmur because I can I see you're reviewing your matchup with 87and71 from last year. In a 26 team ATD Bowie and Harris weren't 2nd liners but in 25 team ATD they're most certainly third liners

Bowie is a 3rd liner, but I'm not sure Harris should be.

Harris has 3 significant offensive seasons (vs.x of 99, 88, and 81), 3 more meh offensive seasons (vs. x of 58, 56, and 52), and the rest are basically meaningless(vs. x below 50).

 

[ResilientBeast]

Bowie is a 3rd liner, but I'm not sure Harris should be.

Harris has 3 significant offensive seasons (vs.x of 99, 88, and 81), 3 more meh offensive seasons (vs. x of 58, 56, and 52), and the rest are basically meaningless(vs. x below 50).

That is an entirely different discussion from where we started

I disagree as you'd expect, his finishes where I'd say Taylor impacted his numbers severely are 2, 3, 10 which still leaves him with 2 top 5 five finishes. Even then his PPG remained constant in the years in Portland so I'd hesitate to penalize him so harshly. He's a playmaking winger with some jam in his game, I think he's a perfectly good 3rd liner.

 

[Dreakmur]

That is an entirely different discussion from where we started

Not really, I started by saying he wasn't good offensively... among other things.

I disagree as you'd expect, his finishes where I'd say Taylor impacted his numbers severely are 2, 3, 10 which still leaves him with 2 top 5 five finishes. Even then his PPG remained constant in the years in Portland so I'd hesitate to penalize him so harshly. He's a playmaking winger with some jam in his game, I think he's a perfectly good 3rd liner.

His 81, 88, and 99 scores were 1919-1921, which is why I attributed them to playing with Cyclone Taylor. I made that claim last year, and nobody agued it, so I threw it again this year!

It seems that his scored of 81 and 99 were very much earned. Even then, his offense is really weak.

 

[jarek]

Just a few comments, I think Gilbert is a worthy second liner and probably average in that role. I'm not aiming to sell him as anything special in that role. He's 25th in RW VsX and I think belongs on the second line in a draft this size. Prentice in weighted LW VsX is ranked 50th which would make him in terms of pure offence a bottom of the barrel selection for 2LW. But with his other assets I think he's certainly a low end option but that gets balanced by the best 2C in the draft and an average to above average 2RW.

If Frank Patrick is the closest thing my team has to Achilles heel I'm pretty happy he is a weak 4D with a strong 3D so I think on average the pairing is pretty close to average skill wise.

Thanks for the compliment, I do really love my team from last year Blake - Abel - Cook as a top line *drool*

Careful about using those VsX placements. There are a decent number of guys who don't show up on those lists that would certainly be ahead of your players. Namely most of the Soviets and Martinec.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Not really, I started by saying he wasn't good offensively... among other things.



His 81, 88, and 99 scores were 1919-1921, which is why I attributed them to playing with Cyclone Taylor. I made that claim last year, and nobody agued it, so I threw it again this year!

It seems that his scored of 81 and 99 were very much earned. Even then, his offense is really weak.

Well you said he belonged in MLD


ImporterExporter really hit on the wrong notes with Harris last year and after all the research I did on Taylor I know his career arc well

That's totally fine I agree his offence is definitely not the best but I think his role as a secondary physical, secondary defensive presence on my third line is the right place for him.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Careful about using those VsX placements. There are a decent number of guys who don't show up on those lists that would certainly be ahead of your players. Namely most of the Soviets and Martinec.

And their are certainly players ahead of them that get drafted after them it's all about balance. Gilbert is not a controversial second liner and Prentice I think is fine as a 2LW because my center is so strong

 

[jarek]

And their are certainly players ahead of them that get drafted after them it's all about balance. Gilbert is not a controversial second liner and Prentice I think is fine as a 2LW because my center is so strong

I hope you remember saying this before you bash Parise on a 2nd line.

Your argument about Harris being fine in a secondary role to support the better Armstrong in physicality and defense is exactly why I think Parise is fine here on my line. His linemates are so strong that he just brings good enough of a game to compliment them. There's also that for about 2 minutes a game, Joliat will be playing there instead, which will be quite a boost.

There's also that waiting so long to finish my 2nd line allowed me to gather greater strength in other areas of my team. Namely my 2nd pair and PK.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I hope you remember saying this before you bash Parise on a 2nd line.

Your argument about Harris being fine in a secondary role to support the better Armstrong in physicality and defense is exactly why I think Parise is fine here on my line. His linemates are so strong that he just brings good enough of a game to compliment them. There's also that for about 2 minutes a game, Joliat will be playing there instead, which will be quite a boost.

There's also that waiting so long to finish my 2nd line allowed me to gather greater strength in other areas of my team. Namely my 2nd pair and PK.

I save my arguments for my team thank you very much