ATD 2013 - Draft Thread III

[Rob Scuderi]

If you are going to use my words, at least use them how I said it. I said Rousseaus offense was underrated compared to players drafted around him *Hence the Gare comparison*

What makes him less capable then: Gillies, Walker, Gare, Armstrong, Phillips, Mohns etc... etc..

This is exactly how I'd try to frame it if I were trying to sell Rousseau's offensive ability. Assuming Phillips is Tommy, I think he's the only one who is clearly better offensively. Mohns is tricky because of his years playing defense.

 

[markrander87]

On a normal team, yes he is. Like you, we're using our 1st line as our checking line. Jack Walker in an excellent fit in that situation.

100% agreed, it's a shame some gm's are so set in the well line 3 has to be your defensive line etc..

 

[markrander87]

This is exactly how I'd try to frame it if I were trying to sell Rousseau's offensive ability. Assuming Phillips is Tommy, I think he's the only one who is clearly better offensively. Mohns is tricky because of his years playing defense.

Not to mention all of the one dimensional offensive players who are slightly better offensively but way less effective defensively.

 

[Dreakmur]

100% agreed, it's a shame some gm's are so set in the well line 3 has to be your defensive line etc..

As I said long ago, when you got criticized for taking Sedin as your 3rd line center, there's nothing wrong with your strategy. It makes theoretical sense to me, and we'll see how you put it all together.

Having said that, I'm not sure how much I'm sold on the defensive abilities of your 1st line. I don't see any liablities or anything, but I just don't see much shut-down ability. Maybe I'm under-rating the defense of Kennedy and Lindsay... so if they are great, show me.

 

[nik jr]

UAF selects D Mike Ramsey.

one of the best defensive d-men of the '80s and early '90s
voted best defensive d-man by NHLers in a '90 poll
played for NHL all stars in rendevous '87
played for US in '84 and '87 canada cups
played for US '80 gold medal team
played in 4 all star games

You don't think playing in the clutch and cuddle era helped slow-footed bruisers like Hatcher? You think he'd have done as well in the 70's or 80's? I do not.

i think hatcher would not have done as well, but hatcher's lack of speed would be offset somewhat by the slower speed due to longer shifts. difference in defensive structure would also hurt hatcher, imo.

hatcher's knee injury early in '04 also made him really slow, and made his adjustment to post-lockout conditions harder.

 

[BraveCanadian]

UAF selects D Mike Ramsey.

Really like him and had trouble not drafting him last pick and would have had more trouble not drafting him in my upcoming pick haha

 

[markrander87]

As I said long ago, when you got criticized for taking Sedin as your 3rd line center, there's nothing wrong with your strategy. It makes theoretical sense to me, and we'll see how you put it all together.

Having said that, I'm not sure how much I'm sold on the defensive abilities of your 1st line. I don't see any liablities or anything, but I just don't see much shut-down ability. Maybe I'm under-rating the defense of Kennedy and Lindsay... so if they are great, show me.

I'm quite surprised you need some convincing with Kennedy. That's fine though I will have lot's to show with him (heading out now)

Of course one thing that I will not be able to find in a newspaper clipping or through statistics is the concept of when a team doesn't have the puck they cannot score. A good offense is also a very effective way of shutting down top lines.

A Lindsay, Kennedy cycle down low will force these top lines in to playing more in their own zone.

 

[BubbaBoot]

The Boston Mules select Ralph Backstrom / CTR.

 

[markrander87]

UAF selects D Mike Ramsey.


hatcher's knee injury early in '04 also made him really slow, and made his adjustment to post-lockout conditions harder.

And there goes the 3rd member of that list, great pick.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

The Boston Mules select Ralph Backstrom / CTR.

Pulford - Backstrom - Provost...that is quite the shutdown line


EDIT: And a little scoring threat as well

 

[BubbaBoot]

And there goes the 3rd member of that list, great pick.

I sweated 36 picks for this......I am really happy.

ck26 has been PMed.

 

[BubbaBoot]

Pulford - Backstrom - Provost...that is quite the shutdown line

Funny, in all of the profiles of read they're described as being good offensively but sacrificed the numbers for the good of the team

 

[Dreakmur]

I'm quite surprised you need some convincing with Kennedy. That's fine though I will have lot's to show with him (heading out now)

I know Kennedy is solid defensively, but I think he needs to be more than that. Maybe he is, and we'll see

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I know Kennedy is solid defensively, but I think he needs to be more than that. Maybe he is, and we'll see

I think Kennedy was the top defensive center of the 40s dynasty. I mean, who else would it have been? It sure wasn't Syl Apps or Max Bentley...heh. Kennedy was definitely the best faceoff man of his era, and arguably all-time, which does have quite a bit of defensive value. I agree Kennedy is the key there though, because from what I gather, Lindsay and Rousseau are both good, but not great, defensively.

 

[markrander87]

I know Kennedy is solid defensively, but I think he needs to be more than that. Maybe he is, and we'll see

Just because I have the article open, Kennedy was also known as the best faceoff man in his era...

Hall of Fame coach Scotty Bowman tells the story of being a young junior coach, and inviting NHL player Teeder Kennedy to school his players on winning face-offs. Recalls Bowman: "He said they will be all right — they just aren't cheating enough."

*list in article*

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/nhl/2002-11-18-faceoffs_x.htm

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

You don't think playing in the clutch and cuddle era helped slow-footed bruisers like Hatcher? You think he'd have done as well in the 70's or 80's? I do not.

1. Hatcher wasn't particular slow in his prime. This is often forgotten because of what injuries did to his knees.
2. He may have been better in past eras when his skills were more unique. His game is quite similar to Ching Johnson for example.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

1. Hatcher wasn't particular slow in his prime. This is often forgotten because of what injuries did to his knees.
2. He may have been better in past eras when his skills were more unique. His game is quite similar to Ching Johnson for example.

Johnson was a decent skater apparently, but I agree that while Hatcher was fairly slow, but wasn't THAT slow in his prime.

But the idea that "clutch and grab" only happened in the 90s is bizarre. Read every profile of the Gold Dust twins - they talk about how they made clutch and grab an art form.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

We're about ready for a new thread, by the way.

 

[Sturminator]

1. Hatcher wasn't particular slow in his prime. This is often forgotten because of what injuries did to his knees.
2. He may have been better in past eras when his skills were more unique. His game is quite similar to Ching Johnson for example.

Ching Johnson's prime was spent entirely in the era when many defensemen (at least the defensive types) hardly came past their own blueline. I have recently uncovered some information on this style of play and the shift away from it which I will reveal when the relevant players/coaches have been drafted. To be honest, I wonder whether or not Johnson was also somewhat helped hy his era.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Ching Johnson's prime was spent entirely in the era when many defensemen (at least the defensive types) hardly came past their own blueline. I have recently uncovered some information on this style of play and the shift away from it which I will reveal when the relevant players/coaches have been drafted. To be honest, I wonder whether or not Johnson was also somewhat helped hy his era.

Isn't that really coach specific? From what I can gather, Ottawa and Vancouver most certainly did not restrain defencemen like that, and players like Joe Simpson, Eddie Shore and King Clancy were not so restrained.

 

[Dreakmur]

I think Kennedy was the top defensive center of the 40s dynasty. I mean, who else would it have been? It sure wasn't Syl Apps or Max Bentley...heh. Kennedy was definitely the best faceoff man of his era, and arguably all-time, which does have quite a bit of defensive value. I agree Kennedy is the key there though, because from what I gather, Lindsay and Rousseau are both good, but not great, defensively.

Being the best defensive player on your on team isn't necessarily an indication of elite defensive play. Neither Apps not Bentley were even average defensively, so it's hardly an accompishment to be better than them.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I think Kennedy was the top defensive center of the 40s dynasty. I mean, who else would it have been? It sure wasn't Syl Apps or Max Bentley...heh. Kennedy was definitely the best faceoff man of his era, and arguably all-time, which does have quite a bit of defensive value. I agree Kennedy is the key there though, because from what I gather, Lindsay and Rousseau are both good, but not great, defensively.

But weren't the Dynasty Leafs a very historically unique build for a team? One of the key differences is that centres were not the key defensive forwards, they were the key offensive forwards though. They frequently placed shutdown wingers with skilled scoring centres.

 

[Sturminator]

Johnson was a decent skater apparently, but I agree that while Hatcher was fairly slow, but wasn't THAT slow in his prime.

But the idea that "clutch and grab" only happened in the 90s is bizarre. Read every profile of the Gold Dust twins - they talk about how they made clutch and grab an art form.

The coach of that Leafs team evidently did during his playing career, as well, so yes, it is nothing new. That Toronto dynasty, however, was built on the same rules that applied for many years in the NHL. Between the lockouts hockey sort of exists in its own wierd universe where the rules, or at least their enforcement, are not entirely contiguous with the eras immediately before and after it. Hatcher (and much lesser plugger-types like Scott Hannan) was arguably the biggest beneficiary of the C&G rules constellation such as it was.

I'm not saying Derian would have been an AHLer in Schoenfeld's day, but it would have been harder for him to shine out of that era and off of that team. His actual career occured in a perfect storm of circumstances for a defensive defenseman of his ilk.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

The coach of that Leafs team evidently did during his playing career, as well, so yes, it is nothing new. That Toronto dynasty, however, was built on the same rules that applied for many years in the NHL. Between the lockouts hockey sort of exists in its own wierd universe where the rules, or at least their enforcement, are not entirely contiguous with the eras immediately before and after it. Hatcher (and much lesser plugger-types like Scott Hannan) was arguably the biggest beneficiary of the C&G rules constellation such as it was.

I'm not saying Derian would have been an AHLer in Schoenfeld's day, but it would have been harder for him to shine out of that era and off of that team. His actual career occured in a perfect storm of circumstances for a defensive defenseman of his ilk.

I disagree because Hatcher had a lot more to his game, it just happened that he fit the era perfectly so he used that to his benefit, but his skills transfer to any era because he had a lot more to his game. Where as someone like Chris Therien was a big beneficiary because he became a sought after commodity, while in any other era he would have been a plug.

 

[Sturminator]

Isn't that really coach specific? From what I can gather, Ottawa and Vancouver most certainly did not restrain defencemen like that, and players like Joe Simpson, Eddie Shore and King Clancy were not so restrained.

I think it was more specific defensive players who were given more latitude in the attack. The way forwards checked was also somewhat peculiar by modern standards. Ottawa is the only system that regularly involved attacking defensemen as far as I know, but that may have been more a product of Frank Nighbor's genius than any grand strategic formula.

We can have a more meaningful discussion about these themes in a few rounds.