ATD 2013 - Draft Thread III

[vecens24]

Agreed, I think this post works even more in favour of Rousseaus offense. Clearly he wasn't "just a product of Beliveau."

I mean, it kinda depends on the amount of points he put up with Beliveau as opposed to without him, right? Like even though Beliveau obviously missed games, we don't know if Rousseau's offense was far better with or without him.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Agreed, I think this post works even more in favour of Rousseaus offense. Clearly he wasn't "just a product of Beliveau."

I don't have the quotes, but by the looks of it he was playing with Beliveau both times he cracked 70 points. I definitely don't think you're going to get those numbers out of Rousseau without the monster Montreal PP or a top 10 pick on his line.

 

[markrander87]

I mean, it kinda depends on the amount of points he put up with Beliveau as opposed to without him, right? Like even though Beliveau obviously missed games, we don't know if Rousseau's offense was far better with or without him.

Lol. So if you don't know, how can you use that against him? You guys were making it out to seem that he was a direct product of playing with Believeau.

 

[Dreakmur]

I understand you have strong players on your 2nd line so there's a void on the 1st , but that doesn't mean you'll get away with it without confrontation.Rousseau is a terrible , terrible first line winger any way you cut it.

He's not terrible, he's just more of a 3rd liner.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Well player X was good enough offensively to play PP minutes and player Y didn't play on the PP so player Y gets bonus points offensively.

Let's punish a player because he was looked upon by his coach as having the offensive talent to play on the PP.

There is a reason Rousseaus coach (TOE BLAKE) used him on the PP and Gare was not used by his coach on the PP.

Your point is irrelevant.Good for Rousseau if he managed to have a shot at regular PP ice-time.Good for him if , helped by this PP ice-time , he managed to produce a certain amount of offense.The question is , will Rousseau convince his ATD coach to give him the same kind of PP ice-time? If not , then his career 5 vs 5 production will be more representative of the offense Rousseau will be able to bring in this league.

 

[Sturminator]

There are probably a couple defensemen who could be viewed as better value here, unfortunately they don't fit in to my plans. As far as defensive and pk ability, this guy is one of the best available... Halifax selects Jim Schoenfeld, D.

Norris voting record:
74-75: 10th
77-78: 7th
79-80: 3rd
80-81: 12th

All Star voting record:
1974-75: 13th
1975-76: 12th
1976-77: 9th
1977-78: 8th
1978-79: 11th
1979-80: 4th
1980-81: 10th

Schoenfeld and one other guy were the best defensemen available on my board. Schoenfeld's AST finishes above are all in consecutive years, which is impressive, and he competed in a very difficult era for defensemen. Also, although Jim missed 10-15 regular season games pretty regularly, he only missed a single playoff game in his entire career. I saw them both, and this guy was just as good as Derian Hatcher.

 

[BenchBrawl]

He's not terrible, he's just more of a 3rd liner.

In my book , 3rd liners are terrible 1st liners.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

In my book , 3rd liners are terrible 1st liners.

Weren't you going to use Claude Provost as a 3rd liner last time?

 

[BenchBrawl]

Weren't you going to use Claude Provost as a 3rd liner last time?

Yes.

But ultimately didn't.

Provost was on my 3rd line.

End of discussion.

 

[vecens24]

Lol. So if you don't know, how can you use that against him? You guys were making it out to seem that he was a direct product of playing with Believeau.

I mean I mentioned the Beliveau aspect (and it's actually provable by going through HSP) but mostly I think the 32% of offense from PP is a pretty high total for a first line ES guy that might be overmatched there to begin with. For instance, in today's era Dany Heatley is a pretty PP reliant player and he's at 36% of his total production being PP points.

Also I should mention, I don't agree with the assertions being made that he's an incontrovertible third liner. I have a feeling we're going to see a few guys drafted that end up on top 6 lines that are worse than Rousseau offensively and defensively.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Schoenfeld and one other guy were the best defensemen available on my board. Schoenfeld's AST finishes above are all in consecutive years, which is impressive, and he competed in a very difficult era for defensemen. Also, although Jim missed 10-15 regular season games pretty regularly, he only missed a single playoff game in his entire career. I saw them both, and this guy was just as good as Derian Hatcher.

So it makes sense that he goes slightly after Hatcher, as Hatcher had a full and healthy career.

Rousseau is a solid 2nd liner as well. I'd say he's more of a 2nd liner than 3rd liner.

 

[markrander87]

There are numerous guys drafted who have similar to worse offense then Rousseau and are listed on 1st lines.

 

[BenchBrawl]

There are numerous guys drafted who have similar to worse offense then Rousseau and are listed on 1st lines.

Then there are numerous terrible 1st liners.

Just accept it for what it is , you wanted to have a guy such as Sedin centering a 3rd line , good , you'll be able to gain points on this , but gaining points normally means losing some elsewhere.

 

[Sturminator]

Man, you guys are being pretty hard on Bobby Rousseau. He has generally been a third liner in the ATD, but he was always one of the very best offensive third liners, and is definitely a better offensive (and all-around) player than Danny Gare. I mean...he played on that Montreal power play for a reason. It's not like the Habs didn't have other options.

The way mark has set up his lines is to have two strong waves. He was never going to have a high-end RW on his nominal first line because none are available at this point. The more germane question is not whether Rousseau is a strong ATD first line player, but whether or not Rousseau was the best available player for mark's line at the time he was taken.

 

[markrander87]

In my book , 3rd liners are terrible



Delete.

 

[markrander87]

He's not terrible, he's just more of a 3rd liner.

Isn't jack walker "more of a 3rd liner"

 

[BenchBrawl]

And in my book any 2nd line that starts out with helmut balderis as its top player is terrible as well.

Disagree , I think Balderis is a pretty good 2nd liner.But you are entitled to your opinion.I'm fine with that.

 

[Sturminator]

So it makes sense that he goes slightly after Hatcher, as Hatcher had a full and healthy career.

Rousseau is a solid 2nd liner as well. I'd say he's more of a 2nd liner than 3rd liner.

When I say that he was just as good as Hatcher, I mean that his career was just as good. Schoenfeld peaked higher than Hatcher, was more mobile and was able to dominate defensively in a much more wide-open, offensive era on a team that wasn't nearly as good as Dallas defensively, but he got dinged up more than Hatcher did, and that held him back somewhat.

Agree with you on Rousseau. He's not an ideal 1st liner (though mark really has a 1A and 1B system going), but he's a perfectly good 2nd liner. People trotting out the likes of Jack Walker on a scoringline should really watch out before they criticize Bobby Rousseau.

 

[BenchBrawl]

The more germane question is not whether Rousseau is a strong ATD first line player, but whether or not Rousseau was the best available player for mark's line at the time he was taken.

Disagree , the point here is not to judge mark's individual decisions as a GM but to judge his team.He was the one who started the party.

Rousseau might have been the greatest pick mark could've made but it doesn't change anything for the big picture.

He was the one who claimed we all underrated Rousseau's offense and that he was a more than capable 1st liner.He didn't ask if we thought Rousseau was a good pick at the time per say.There was no context involved.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

When I say that he was just as good as Hatcher, I mean that his career was just as good. Schoenfeld peaked higher than Hatcher, was more mobile and was able to dominate defensively in a much more wide-open, offensive era on a team that wasn't nearly as good as Dallas defensively, but he got dinged up more than Hatcher did, and that held him back somewhat.

The bolded just seems like era bias to me. Who cares that Hatcher's era was defensive? He was still (likely) the 2nd best defensive defenseman after Scott Stevens in that era, 3rd or 4th best after Pronger and Lidstrom hit their strides.

 

[Sturminator]

Disagree , I think Balderis is a pretty good 2nd liner.But you are entitled to your opinion.I'm fine with that.

You guys are both being ridiculous. Both Rousseau and Balderis are strong in their roles based on the composition of the teams (well...we need to see how the rest of Montreal's 2nd line will come together).

 

[Sturminator]

The bolded just seems like era bias to me. Who cares that Hatcher's era was defensive? He was still (likely) the 2nd best defensive defenseman after Scott Stevens in that era, 3rd or 4th best after Pronger and Lidstrom hit their strides.

You don't think playing in the clutch and cuddle era helped slow-footed bruisers like Hatcher? You think he'd have done as well in the 70's or 80's? I do not.

 

[markrander87]

Disagree , the point here is not to judge mark's individual decisions as a GM but to judge his team.He was the one who started the party.

Rousseau might have been the greatest pick mark could've made but it doesn't change anything for the big picture.

He was the one who claimed we all underrated Rousseau's offense and that he was a more than capable 1st liner.He didn't ask if we thought Rousseau was a good pick at the time per say.There was no context involved.

If you are going to use my words, at least use them how I said it. I said Rousseaus offense was underrated compared to players drafted around him *Hence the Gare comparison*

What makes him less capable then: Gillies, Walker, Gare, Armstrong, Phillips, Mohns etc... etc..

 

[BraveCanadian]

The bolded just seems like era bias to me. Who cares that Hatcher's era was defensive? He was still (likely) the 2nd best defensive defenseman after Scott Stevens in that era, 3rd or 4th best after Pronger and Lidstrom hit their strides.

It is an attribute of the player not the era imo.

You don't think playing in the clutch and cuddle era helped slow-footed bruisers like Hatcher? You think he'd have done as well in the 70's or 80's? I do not.

He would have gotten lit up. (comparatively at least)

 

[Dreakmur]

Isn't jack walker "more of a 3rd liner"

On a normal team, yes he is. Like you, we're using our 1st line as our checking line. Jack Walker in an excellent fit in that situation.