ATD 2012 - Draft Thread VI

[BenchBrawl]

What injury? He missed one game the entire year, and it was the last one. He got hurt in the second to last game of the year, and missed the last game. Where is the drop-off in production? Do you mean he was great that season(and the one before it), got hurt, had surgery in the summer, and was then never the same after that surgery?

I think it was shoulder , anyway I remember very clearly he had one and they talked about it and they decided to wait in the summer to have surgery for it.I know he couldn't shot as he used to do before it because of it whether or not it was the shoulder.He was never the same once the injury hurt him , sometimes you can still play even with an injury and can wait for the summer to perform surgery , but it doesn't mean you are 100% far from it.

To be honest I'm only arguing for lecavalier and not for lecavalier the guy on my team on this one.It doesnt change anything as far as me having him , this injury happened so be it.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Wow, 63 points in 43 games, then 29 in the next 38!

I had forgotten he was playing that well in 2007.


and I wasn't trying to argue, I just wanted the facts.

and this was the year just after his 52 goals 108 pts , at 26 & 27 years old , so without this injury , we can strongly suspect we might have seen a very great prime for Lecavalier from 27 to 30 years old or so.It's just too bad.

so considering even if Crosby was a bit better offensively , he was still immature and not that great of a scorer during those days , Lecavalier was a grown 6'4'' man , more physical than ever , a great goal scorer , good playmaker , producing at a very high rate , captain of the team , already won a cup , so it's not entirely out of the question that Bowman and Burns were right that he might have been the best during this particular time and the season before if you would want someone on your club.One way or another , Lecavalier was top 3 for sure.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Also keep in mind everybody is in awe of Crosby's 66 pts in 41 games before his concussion.If he injured his shoulder or elbow and could continue to play without producing as much people would all remember it , while Lecavalier doesn't have that benefit of the doubt or ''known factor'' with a very similar production of 63 pts in 43 games.If people here don't know about it , the general population certainly don't remember it.

 

[EagleBelfour]

I don't downgrade slower players offensively because obviously they did what they did as slow players. Maybe big differences in speed between linemates are less than ideal, but speed is already accounted for in the stats is what I'm saying.

Defensively...that's a different story, but I don't think that applies to Burch unless he has a defensive reputation of which I am unaware.

That's all I was saying.

I've read that he was 'responsible defensively', which for me means that he's not a liability, but definitely not a two-way player. Let's see what else I'll dig, good or bad.

You’re going to want to find things on his defense, physicality and leadership. His offensive ability is there for all to see. I don’t think it’s possible to sell me on him being better offensively than his numbers say.

As for defense, I have no idea if he has a reputation there.

As far as toughness goes, I think his bio in The Trail says he didn’t like the rough stuff (which is about as much of an indictment of softness as you’ll ever find in a player this old) but I don’t remember the exact wording.

''Burch was a big man for a centre in those days and although not very fast was an excellent playmaker and polished stickhandler. His size probably got him quite a few penalties that he did not deserve by leaning a little too heavily on some of his opponents. Although his linemate liked to mix it up, he avoided the rough stuff.''

- Looks like he was a big and strong player, but avoided the rough stuff, which dosn't mean he disliked it. It's almost playing with words, so I'll see if he indeed disliked or avoided the rough stuff.

Also keep in mind everybody is in awe of Crosby's 66 pts in 41 games before his concussion.If he injured his shoulder or elbow and could continue to play without producing as much people would all remember it , while Lecavalier doesn't have that benefit of the doubt or ''known factor'' with a very similar production of 63 pts in 43 games.If people here don't know about it , the general population certainly don't remember it.

Crosby is a far more well-rounded hockey player than Lecavalier though. In 2010-11, before his injury, Crosby had very, very few flaws to his game.

---

I like the Lecavalier pick here. I wouldn't of picked another active player as my centre, but as Nalyd said, he's another great 4th liner (alongside Burch) who can replace on a scoring line with ease.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Crosby is a far more well-rounded hockey player than Lecavalier though. In 2010-11, before his injury, Crosby had very, very few flaws to his game.

I disagree with this , especially with the ridiculous ''far'' in the first sentence.Lecavalier has a great physical and mean edge over Crosby and has an infinitely better shot.Let's not overrate Crosby's defensive game.Crosby is not FAR ahead of Lecavalier in the intangibles department.Lecavalier also has very few flaws now that I think of it.

 

[BraveCanadian]

just because he led the league in goals? Nah, I wouldn't go that far. i don't know if there was even a time he would be considered top-10.

(anyone have his placement from the 2008 THN yearbook? I am at work. that would be his peak placement)

Lecavalier was easily top 10 and finally fulfilling his long time promise when he got gooned by who was it.. Cooke? that ruined his shoulder and he has never been the same since.

He was definitely better than Richards has ever been (outside of his Conn Smythe run maybe) at that point.

Richards has been more consistent imo and that Conn Smythe run adds a lot of points. Also I wanted a guy to play point on the powerplay which is another plus for Richards having that flexibility, and one of the reasons he has such a stark goal to assist ratio. He actually does have a good shot.

I tend to think that Richards is better two ways as well.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

If my memory is correct, Crosby got off to a slow start. I think in the 20 games prior to the injury he had over 35 pts.

 

[EagleBelfour]

I disagree with this , especially with the ridiculous ''far'' in the first sentence.Lecavalier has a great physical and mean edge over Crosby and has an infinitely better shot.Let's not overrate Crosby's defensive game.Crosby is not FAR ahead of Lecavalier in the intangibles department.Lecavalier also has very few flaws now that I think of it.

If my memory is correct, Crosby got off to a slow start. I think in the 20 games prior to the injury he had over 35 pts.

I may be wrong on this one, although it's ironic that I get trashed for using the world ''far better'', when afterwards BB says that Lecavalier had an ''infinite'' better shot on someone who scored 83 games in his last 122 games prior to the 2011 season. I'll admit I may have exaggerated, as Lecavalier 2006-07 and 2007-08 season were great, no doubt about that, but Crosby is the most well-rounded player of the two. It's beside the point anyway, as obviously both players plays different roles on their respective teams.

 

[seventieslord]

''Burch was a big man for a centre in those days and although not very fast was an excellent playmaker and polished stickhandler. His size probably got him quite a few penalties that he did not deserve by leaning a little too heavily on some of his opponents. Although his linemate liked to mix it up, he avoided the rough stuff.''
.

Thank you for posting that. I see what you mean about it being a bit of two things. This doesn’t mean he was soft.

Lecavalier was easily top 10 and finally fulfilling his long time promise when he got gooned by who was it.. Cooke? that ruined his shoulder and he has never been the same since.

He was definitely better than Richards has ever been (outside of his Conn Smythe run maybe) at that point.

Richards has been more consistent imo and that Conn Smythe run adds a lot of points. Also I wanted a guy to play point on the powerplay which is another plus for Richards having that flexibility, and one of the reasons he has such a stark goal to assist ratio. He actually does have a good shot.

I tend to think that Richards is better two ways as well.

Yes, I stand corrected on the Lecavalier front. In 2006-07 and the first half of 2007-08 he was a beast.

If my memory is correct, Crosby got off to a slow start. I think in the 20 games prior to the injury he had over 35 pts.

Your memory is correct and I don’t need to look this up. Crosby wasn’t scoring at that rate early on. If he was, he’d have jumped out to an early scoring lead and he didn’t. He took quite a while to get there. When he got injured it was just after his point streak ended, and he was scoring just a tad under 2 PPG during that streak. He was seemingly getting better every game until the end of the streak in New York.

(lol, does anyone else remember the new York announcers near the end of that game, saying something along the lines of, “for a player who’s supposed to be so good, he’s sure poor in the shootoutâ€, and then proceeded to quote numbers that were incorrect, quoting his number of shootout winning goals as his number of total shootout goals? LOL, of course you’ll have a poor shooting percentage if only GWG count as goals!)

 

[Elvis P]

... Lecavalier has a great physical and mean edge over Crosby and has an infinitely better shot. ...

Crosby has one of the strongest lower bodies in the league. That's why it's so hard to knock him off the puck. "An infinitely better shot"? Some people like Gretzky consider Crosby the most talented player since Mario.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

Definitely disagree about the part about going before Richards. In the exact same number of playoff games, Richards has 10 more points(62 to 52), Richards has better top finishes, a higher career adjusted PPG(.993 to .926), and is better defensively.

Sure - but Lecavalier is a better goalscorer, better puck winner in the corners, better leader...tougher.

I would have to take Vince at his best over Brad at his best.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Sure - but Lecavalier is a better goalscorer, better puck winner in the corners, better leader...tougher.

I would have to take Vince at his best over Brad at his best.

The only issue with this is that 2ish seasons of being better isn't enough imo.

Lecavalier has a bigger peak and valley and Richards is more consistent for the most part.

 

[DaveG]

He's another one of those players that isn't good enough for the role he plays, so he becomes a utility player. But yeah, better than Staal.

See I disagree with that, and not just because I have Staal. Staal's better at creating his own offense. Their goal scoring is identical since the lockout (T4th in GPG for centers actually) but Staal never has had a linemate to work with that even sniffs the same quality as St Louis. But Staal is the more physically imposing of the two players in terms of how he plays, has a slightly better playoff resume (though Vinny did a lot to help his case there last year), and is simply the more versatile of the two. If needed I'll play him on the wing or on the point where he was extremely effective in the Canes 2006 Cup run. Durability has to be an edge to Staal in comparing the two as well, Staal's only missed 14 career games, while Vinny has two seasons where he's missed at least that many.

 

[BenchBrawl]

See I disagree with that, and not just because I have Staal. Staal's better at creating his own offense. Their goal scoring is identical since the lockout (T4th in GPG for centers actually) but Staal never has had a linemate to work with that even sniffs the same quality as St Louis. But Staal is the more physically imposing of the two players in terms of how he plays, has a slightly better playoff resume (though Vinny did a lot to help his case there last year), and is simply the more versatile of the two. If needed I'll play him on the wing or on the point where he was extremely effective in the Canes 2006 Cup run. Durability has to be an edge to Staal in comparing the two as well, Staal's only missed 14 career games, while Vinny has two seasons where he's missed at least that many.

I disagree , Lecavalier is more in your face than Staal as a player , especially when he was in his prime.I can also safely say that Lecavalier is a tougher player.Lecavalier can have outburst of anger and fight and be more nasty than Eric Staal.Durability is not an edge to Staal , Lecavalier played 300 more NHL games.Sure , Staal is younger , but that's not the ATD problem , he'll eventually get pick higher once the years pass , but these years doesn't exist yet and these 300 games are still missing.Lecavalier being a st-louis product is simply a myth.

Even strenght goal finishes:

Lecavalier : 1st , 4th , 7th
Staal: 10th

You mentioned you might play Staal on the powerplay , that's fine , but it'll be on the 2nd wave as one of the weakest player , we can safely say these players role will be mainly even strenght , and Lecavalier is a good EV strenght scorer , surprisingly so.He's not that good on the PP.

 

[DaveG]

I'm not saying he's a product of St Louis, he wouldn't be ATD worthy if he was and he's definitely a worthy pick, but there's no question that being on the same line as Marty for much of their primes helped his production. Staal's linemates over the entirety of his career are MLD fodder at best, aside from one who I can see maybe being a spare this year.

Durability's still a Staal edge though. At the point that Staal is at now in career seasons played Vinny had missed about twice as many as Staal currently has missed.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I'm not saying he's a product of St Louis, he wouldn't be ATD worthy if he was and he's definitely a worthy pick, but there's no question that being on the same line as Marty for much of their primes helped his production. Staal's linemates over the entirety of his career are MLD fodder at best, aside from one who I can see maybe being a spare this year.

Durability's still a Staal edge though. At the point that Staal is at now in career seasons played Vinny had missed about twice as many as Staal currently has missed.

Staal's current winger is a potential future ATDer. But your point is valid.

 

[hfboardsuser]

Kimberley selects coach Viktor Tikhonov.

 

[Dwight]

I guess that means I'm up.

OP isn't updated, so I'm gonna assume this guy hasn't been taken. Rounding out my top 6

Phil Russell, D

 

[DaveG]

Staal's current winger is a potential future ATDer. But your point is valid.

Actually more often then not those two are on different lines, aside from on the powerplay. Bizarre and contrary to what you'd think would make sense, but it's true.

 

[chaosrevolver]

The Seattle Metropolitans will select:

Coach - Jacques Demers

Face of a champ honestly.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Nice pick with Demers.Great guy for sure and good coach.

edit: what is going on these days in the ATD community , nobody else not drunk on a friday night or what?

 

[Leaf Lander]

Vince Lecavalier is underrated around here. He should definitely go before Staal, probably Richards as well (and others, that I can't think of right now).

I think his game has stalled and he apopears to have adwindling upside

 

[BenchBrawl]

I'm literally falling asleep , anybody can take a list?

 

[VanIslander]

My initial impression of the top-3 and Bottom-3 picks of the last few rounds...

Round 13

385. Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Keystones - Blair Russell, C/RW HHOF TOP-6 FORWARD
387. Billyshoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers - Harry Hyland, RW CLUTCH CHAMPION
395. Dreakmur & Hobnobs - Rogle BK - Owen Nolan, RW 2ND/3RD LINE MR. INTANGIBLES

402. BenchBrawl - Les Canadiens de Montréal - Barry Beck, D
407. Mr Bugg - Kimberley Dynamiters - Eduard Ivanov, D
409. monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires - Paul Reinhart, D


Round 14

422. JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - Jack Marshall, F/D TOP-LINE GENERATIONAL MULTITALENT
426. Mr Bugg - Kimberley Dynamiters - Vladimir Vikulov, RW ELITE SNIPER FOR TOP-6 ROLE
442. papershoes - Kenora Thistles - Graham Drinkwater, WORTHY 2ND PAIRING ON ANY ALL-TIME TEAM

433. DaveG - Lada Togliatti - Eric Staal, C
441. vecens24 - Hamilton Mustangs - Reijo Ruotsalainen, D
444. vecens24 - Hamilton Mustangs - Ed Van Impe, D

Round 15

475. JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - Hamby Shore, D TOP-DUO IN ERA; TOP-4 ROLE ALL-TIME
455. Hedberg & vancityluongo - Winnipeg Saints - Dale Hunter, C EVERY TOP-6 COULD USE HIM
480. Brave Canadian - Guelph Platers - Gennady Tsygankov, D ELITE 4/5 PKER

457. Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Stefan Persson, D
461. Stoneberg & raleh - Halifax Mooseheads - Jerry Toppazzini, RW
470. Dwight - West Island Lions - Duncan Keith, D

Round 16

482. TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Roger Neilson, Assistant Coach EINSTEIN
496. jkrx - Winnipeg Falcons - Wilf Paiement, RW IDEAL BOTTOM-6ER
510. God Made Me & hungryhungryhippy - 1893 Montreal AAA - John MacLean, RW 2ND/3RD LINE ALL-TIME WINNER

483. Reds4Life - Detroit Reds - Ken Daneyko, D
486. JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - Dion Phaneuf, D
490. Mr Bugg - Kimberley Dynamiters - Yuri Liapkin, D

Round 17

516. chaosrevolver - Seattle Metropolitans - Dan Bain, C HOW THE HELL DOES HE DROP?
524. Velociraptor - Australia Mighty Roos - Ken Hitchcock, Coach SIMPLY HAS THE MIDAS TOUCH
531. Mr Bugg - Kimberley Dynamiters - Sergei Kapustin, LW TOP-6 ALL-TIME TALENT

517. vecens24 - Hamilton Mustangs - Tony Amonte, RW
527. Modo - Dawson City Nuggets - Red Berenson, C
533. MadArcand - Hartford Whalers Murray Oliver, C

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Dan Bain drops because his offense isn't proven enough for a top 6 role and we don't know anything about his defense, so he's useless to a team that wants its bottom 6 to be defensive players and kill penalties. He's an absolutely elite fourth liner at even strength and would be pretty good as a third line physical presence if you weren't looking for D