ATD 2011- Draft Thread

[BraveCanadian]

Seriously man? From atd gm to another? Come on.

This is the atd. We research, analyze, and then present our research and analysis. Sorry for doing exactly that, and sorry that the results didn't agree with your theory.

I actually meant that to just be some ribbing, I'm sorry I didn't add on some smiley to make that more obvious.

However, it hasn't done anything to debunk my "theory".

If anything caveats like the Dead Wings possibly having an easier time scoring than the highest scoring dynasty in the history of the game have me questioning how relative team strength should be accounted for in all these adjustments people are routinely doing.

I know you aren't a fan of that but..

I've addressed your concerns as presented to the best of my abilities - have an open mind and don't try to move the goalposts on me after the fact.

I'm not moving the goalposts, you're just equating playoff performance with scoring. I'm talking about playoff performance including scoring.

I saw them both at their best (I believe you may have too) and I'll still say that at their best they are pretty comparable playoff performers. I'd feel very comfortable having either one on my team I know that.

I know you put a lot of stock into the numbers and put a lot of effort here into trying to estimate their totals, but there are so many variables that aren't even captured in the raw data it is hopeless to adjust and average and then stake a definitive claim either way. (in my opinion)

If we take them at face value and we're saying Messier was estimated to be scoring at 1.07PPG with your normalization and Yzerman was at 1PPG then I'd say since the majority of Yzerman's playoff games came after he was a defensive stalwart that their playoff performance was fairly close, no?

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I agree with you on this one.

I'd put them roughly equal in overall play with Chelios being a bit more solid defensively & more physical(/dirty) and MacInnis having a fairly substantial offensive advantage to make up for those.

Maybe I'm being too picky here, but Chelios is a lot more than "a bit more solid defesively" than Al MacInnis. This is a guy who twice beat out Ray Bourque (who was fantastic defensively) for the Norris while scoring 9 and 10 less points than him.

EDIT: MacInnis, on the other hand put up 103 points in 90'-91', which was 9 MORE points than Bourque, and still lost the Norris to him.

EDIT #2: To his credit, MacInnis did beat out both Bourque and Lidstrom for the 98' Norris while only scoring 5 more points than each of them

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

Come on Bugg....I wanna pick before I leave.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Maybe I'm being too picky here, but Chelios is a lot more than "a bit more solid defesively" than Al MacInnis. This is a guy who twice beat out Ray Bourque (who was fantastic defensively) for the Norris while scoring 9 and 10 less points than him.

EDIT: MacInnis, on the other hand put up 103 points in 90'-91', which was 9 MORE points than Bourque, and still lost the Norris to him.

Just more evidence about how silly voting is sometimes. A very good case could be made that MacInnis should have won in 90-91.

Seriously though, it really depends on which MacInnis we're comparing to.

He improved a lot defensively and was much more sound later in his career than early.

Over their entire careers yeah Chelios was probably quite a bit better defensively. At their best defensively I'd say it was much more close (Chelios still better though - his physicality is an edge).

 

[Dreakmur]

Come on Bugg....I wanna pick before I leave.

I can take a list if you need to leave

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Just more evidence about how silly voting is sometimes. A very good case could be made that MacInnis should have won in 90-91.

Seriously though, it really depends on which MacInnis we're comparing to.

He improved a lot defensively and was much more sound later in his career than early.

Over their entire careers yeah Chelios was probably quite a bit better defensively. At their best defensively I'd say it was much more close (Chelios still better though - his physicality is an edge).

I would say the same goes for offense (obviously with the two switched). Chelios showed that at his best he could be a lot closer to MacInnis than he was over his entire career putting up a few 70+ point seasons and leading the Hawks in scoring with 21 points in 18 games during the 92' Cup Final run. Just as you said about defense for Chelios, offensively MacInnis was still better.

 

[hungryhungryhippy]

Come on Bugg....I wanna pick before I leave.

Bugg is viewing this thread right now so he should pick soon...

I hope you're still here or left a list/leave a list.

 

[hfboardsuser]

The Kimberley Dynamiters are proud to end the first round with one the last great two-way centers left, the man who was once called "the Jean Beliveau of English Canada":

C Syl Apps Sr.

I'll be doing a full bio, but for now, the most amazing thing to me about Apps' career is Hart voting. While he never won it, he came about as close as one can- 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd in voting.

 

[hungryhungryhippy]

I'd love to read that bio when it's done Bugg, especially anything that is a testament of his two-way play (because I've never really heard or seen anything much about it, and EB did a huge bio on him last year).

 

[nik jr]

while researching eddie shore, i read some debate about whether syl apps was the best player in history. this was early in apps' career, late '30s.

but it was a controversial opinion and it seems most writers preferred older players.

i also read some debate, in the '40s, whether apps was the best C in history. there was similar debate about milt schmidt. these were less controversial.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Geez, the run on defensemen continues...

 

[Dreakmur]

List pick is here:

1)Tim Horton

I'll MP the next GM.

 

[hungryhungryhippy]

you'll member of parliament the next gm?

 

[Dreakmur]

you'll member of parliament the next gm?

Yep. They keep telling me my vote matters.

 

[JFA87-66-99]

Sorry I dropped the ball there. My bad. Blame me and not JFA guys.

No one was blaming me. I was the one complaining. I always send pm's to the next gm no matter what just do the same for me guys. No worries tho its all good. I just would have been mad if my time expired and someone snagged Newsy Lalonde from me. It came down to two choices for me lalonde & Joe Sakic. I was suprised to see lalonde still available

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

Thanks dreak. I'm out the door in 10 minutes but I thought I would give my pick some props before I go.

The legendary Tim Horton:

-Key piece of 4 Stanley cup winners
-6 times either 1st or 2nd team all-star
-1967 Conn Smyth runner up

''If only he got angry once in awhile he would have been the best by far!'' - **** ******

''He used his tremendous strength and skill to keep you in check.'' - Bobby Hull

 

[hungryhungryhippy]

If 1967 is the year I'm thinking of, then most people here agree he should have won the Conn Smythe over Mikita

 

[hungryhungryhippy]

I'm 600% sure I know who LF is going to pick next, anyone wanna make a bet?

 

[nik jr]

any documentation of horton being 2nd in smythe voting?

voting is not publicized.

If 1967 is the year I'm thinking of, then most people here agree he should have won the Conn Smythe over Mikita

1962

 

[Dreakmur]

I'm 600% sure I know who LF is going to pick next, anyone wanna make a bet?

Sure.... PM me your guess and I'll respond

 

[BraveCanadian]

The Kimberley Dynamiters are proud to end the first round with one the last great two-way centers left, the man who was once called "the Jean Beliveau of English Canada":

C Syl Apps Sr.

I'll be doing a full bio, but for now, the most amazing thing to me about Apps' career is Hart voting. While he never won it, he came about as close as one can- 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd in voting.

Greatest Maple Leaf ever. Class act.

 

[Leafs Forever]

Well, I can't continue my Glenn Hall taking streak this draft (it ends at 4 ATD's including the ones at LC), but it doesn't mean I can not continue my streak of elite goalies. So I'll take my dad's favourite goalie growing up, the calm, cool, man who I won't have to defend so much in the playoffs, the man from Montreal:



KEN DRYDEN

 

[Dreakmur]

Well, I can't continue my Glenn Hall taking streak this draft (it ends at 4 ATD's including the ones at LC), but it doesn't mean I can not continue my streak of elite goalies. So I'll take my dad's favourite goalie growing up, the calm, cool, man who I won't have to defend so much in the playoffs, the man from Montreal:



KEN DRYDEN

Damn you. I lost my bet

Looks like I have to trade my 24th round pick for HHH's 25th rounder

 

[Leafs Forever]

I'm 600% sure I know who LF is going to pick next, anyone wanna make a bet?

Well if Glenn Hall was available, that wouldn't be worth betting

But since he wasn't...who did you think I was to take?

 

[hungryhungryhippy]

HAHA i knew it!