ATD 2011 Draft Thread II

[seventieslord]

Detroit Riots select Jack Stewart

You know there's a run on defensemen when....

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

You know there's a run on defensemen when....

Speaking of which...

The Chicago Steelers now have two great Dmen in Serge Savard and Valeri Vasiliev. With the run on Dmen I thought I would let any GM's that may have "missed the boat" on a #1 guy know that we will hear offers for either of those two players. We would be looking for a late 2nd round forward or goalie in return.


(I have also posted this in the trade thread)

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Jari Kurri's bio has been completed:

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=30644764&postcount=632

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Chicago Steelers are estatic to select another defenseman - Valeri Vasiliev.

You little...

Valeri served me very well last ATD.

 

[jarek]

If we're to believe your theory (that you supposedly backed off from last night) then we're to believe Seibert was just a team change away from putting up King Clancy or Eddie Shore numbers. That's not a defendable position. While you have showed that Seibert clearly could play an offensive style, the same quotes could be found on the other two, and conventional wisdom had them ahead to begin with, not to mention they actually produced more. If you really think that "percentage of team's points" is a good way to judge an offensive total, then take a look at the 1992-93 season and tell us who the league's best offensive defenseman is. Don't worry about naming this undrafted player.

Perhaps he was just a team change away. I mean, he put up 14 points in 25 games with Detroit after being traded away to them from Chicago, and that pace would have had him 2nd on the team in defense scoring if he had played the full season with them. Coming to the team in a mid season trade, that's pretty impressive.

The fact remains that pretty much all the guys that finished ahead of Seibert in defense scoring when he played in Chicago were all on much better offensive teams. The quotes that I found support Seibert being basically the be all and end all of the offense for his teams. It's awfully tough to put up world records if you don't have much help.

That being said, that statistic I came up with only really works when comparing players that played equal amounts of minutes that played in similar situations (offensive role), really, because then they'd have similar opportunities to get points. I'm much more impressed by a guy who has 25 points for a team that scored 75 goals than a guy who has 35 points for a team that scored 120 goals, for example, assuming said players played equal minutes in an offensive role. This shouldn't be hard to judge with O6 players who were known to play the full game.

Regardless, most of this stems from how impressive I found the quotes regarding his offensive abilities. Many sources talk about how great he was at rushing the puck, and at least one goalie never wanted him to shoot the puck at him, and several respected managers felt he was good enough that it automatically made a team that traded for him a Stanley Cup favorite. Those are some pretty impressive compliments, if you ask me.

 

[VanIslander]

EagleBelfour has five and a half hours to show up or his pick is skipped, right?

 

[seventieslord]

. I'm much more impressed by a guy who has 25 points for a team that scored 75 goals than a guy who has 35 points for a team that scored 120 goals, for example, assuming said players played equal minutes in an offensive role.

The only problem with this statement is that the team that scored 75 goals was almost certainly far inferior than the team with 120. And if they were, it means their players weren't as good. And if a player from the bad team was moved to the player on the good team, his role would be less than it was on the bad team. That's why these comparisons are no good. There's no way N.M. scores 63 points on any team other than Ottawa, for example. Or goes to a team that scored 50% more goals and gets 50% more points as a result.

 

[jarek]

The only problem with this statement is that the team that scored 75 goals was almost certainly far inferior than the team with 120. And if they were, it means their players weren't as good. And if a player from the bad team was moved to the player on the good team, his role would be less than it was on the bad team. That's why these comparisons are no good. There's no way N.M. scores 63 points on any team other than Ottawa, for example. Or goes to a team that scored 50% more goals and gets 50% more points as a result.

So your contention is that if a player on a bad team goes to a good team, he'll get less points? Then how do you explain all the guys beating Seibert in points all being on better teams that scored way more goals than his teams did? You can't have it both ways.. The few times when Seibert was pretty close to the league leader in defense points, was when he was on the teams that scored more goals (the Rangers). In 33-34, Seibert had 82% of Clancy's points, and in 34-35, he had 75 (76?)% of Shore's points, and 96% of the 2nd place guy's points. The Leafs and Rangers were 1st and 2nd in the league in goals, and Shore's Bruins were 3rd. I don't think Seibert was close to Shore offensively most likely (although quite a few people at the time would tell you he was the better player), but this just demonstrates what I've been saying - when Seibert had more opportunity to get points, he was closer to the league leaders in points.

 

[overpass]

So your contention is that if a player on a bad team goes to a good team, he'll get less points? Then how do you explain all the guys beating Seibert in points all being on better teams that scored way more goals than his teams did? You can't have it both ways.. The few times when Seibert was pretty close to the league leader in defense points, was when he was on the teams that scored more goals (the Rangers). In 33-34, Seibert had 82% of Clancy's points, and in 34-35, he had 75 (76?)% of Shore's points, and 96% of the 2nd place guy's points. The Leafs and Rangers were 1st and 2nd in the league in goals, and Shore's Bruins were 3rd. I don't think Seibert was close to Shore offensively most likely (although quite a few people at the time would tell you he was the better player), but this just demonstrates what I've been saying - when Seibert had more opportunity to get points, he was closer to the league leaders in points.

Of course players can score a lot of points on bad teams.

The theory is that good players can score a lot of points on bad teams, because they get a lot of opportunity. But part of the reason that the team is bad is that they don't have better players to compete for those opportunities. If those good players on bad teams were traded to good teams, they would get fewer offensive opportunities and score fewer points.

(looks at the list of drafted players)

Take Max Bentley. You must be much less impressed with his performance after he was traded to Toronto, right? His scoring dropped off when he went to a good team...because they had two other great centres already. It's not always easier to score on a better team.

 

[jarek]

Of course players can score a lot of points on bad teams.

The theory is that good players can score a lot of points on bad teams, because they get a lot of opportunity. But part of the reason that the team is bad is that they don't have better players to compete for those opportunities. If those good players on bad teams were traded to good teams, they would get fewer offensive opportunities and score fewer points.

(looks at the list of drafted players)

Take Max Bentley. You must be much less impressed with his performance after he was traded to Toronto, right? His scoring dropped off when he went to a good team...because they had two other great centres already. It's not always easier to score on a better team.

I understand what all of you guys are saying, but nobody has yet answered my question. If all of what you guys are saying is true, why is it that the only guys outscoring Seibert were the guys on far better offensive teams? When Seibert played for the Rangers, a good offensive team, he was very competitive in league defense scoring. When he played for the Hawks, he wasn't as good, but I mainly attribute that because the Hawks, overall, couldn't score very many goals, and as such, Seibert's scoring suffered.

Additionally, nobody has yet responded as to why Seibert's Rangers were allowing more goals respective to the league than Seibert's Hawks, when by any and all valuation methods, the Rangers were a far superior team, and also had way better defensemen in general (especially defensively). Seibert likely played many more minutes for those Hawks, and my only conclusion is that with those more minutes, he was able to have a greatest defensive impact than the guys on those Rangers teams. I'd be very curious to know the GA on/off the ice for all those Ranger defensemen in Seibert's 2 latter years playing for them.

 

[EagleBelfour]

Let me catch up on the thread and I'll make my selection afterwards. I pretty much know who I want.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

MAke it count bud.

 

[EagleBelfour]

Very sorry I didn't sent any list, I had no doubt that my pick wouldn't come when I was sleeping.

You'll have to give a couple more minutes, Plan A and plan B are still available ... And Plan A1 too. Some players I thought wouldn't be available are still there.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

D Rod Langway.

6'3", 218lbs.
2x Norris Trophy Winner
Washington Capitals Captain(82-93)
6x NHL All Star Game Participant
Hockey Hall of Fame Member
2x 1st-Team All NHL
1x 2nd-Team All NHL
1x Stanley Cup Champion
1x Canada Cup 1st-Team All Star
5x Top 11 Norris Trophy Voting (3, 5, 5, 9, 11)
3x Top 4 Hart Trophy Voting (2, 4, 4)
2x 5th in All Star Voting Among Defensemen ("3rd team")

Rod Langway was the prototypical defensive blueliner - a hard hitter who more often than not cleared the puck from danger. In other words he was a goaltender’s best friend, and the perfect team player.

Craig Laughlin described his former teammate in awe.

“Rod’s presence made a statement to all the other teams. Nobody wanted to play against him when he was in his prime. The statement that I heard most from opponents was that he was like playing against an octopus. He had the size, the reach and the strength.”

Few were better than Langway. He was so good that he won the James Norris Trophy twice, in 1983 and 1984 as the league’s top defenceman. This is an amazing accomplishment when you consider how rare it is for a defensive d-man to win the award since the arrival of Bobby Orr in the late 1960s. Since Orr revolutionized the role of a defenseman from defender to attacker, the trophy almost always went to the best offensive defenseman. For Langway to capture the Norris trophy twice based on his defensive excellence and not his offensive elements is the best tribute to how good he was. And to make it even more impressive, Langway beat out superstars Ray Bourque, Denis Potvin and Paul Coffey. Coffey in particular dared to come close to Orr's offensive exploits, yet the NHL recognized Langway's great play over that. Langway was also the first American player to win the award.

The Montreal Canadiens drafted Langway 37th overall in 1977 after his final year of college. Langway attended the University of New Hampshire where he was on a football scholarship. But hockey soon took over as his love and scouts were noticing him. Rod left school after his sophomore year as he felt he was ready for the professional ranks. The Habs actually urged him to stay in school and develop more as the Habs were in the midst of a dynasty and already boasted a blueline that included Larry Robinson, Serge Savard and Guy Lapointe.

Langway spent some time in the American Hockey League and with Birmingham of the World Hockey Association before joining Montreal for the 1978-79 season. In his first year in the NHL, he recorded seven points in 45 games and was a member of the Canadiens’ Stanley Cup championship squad.

In his first full season in the NHL with Montreal, 1979-80, Langway scored seven goals and 36 points in 77 games. The following year he set career-highs in goals (11), assists (34) and points (45) and in 1981-82 he notched 39 points.

After four years with the Habs, Langway was part of a blockbuster deal prior to the 1982-83 season that sent the veteran defenceman along with Craig Laughlin, Doug Jarvis and Brian Engblom to the Caps for Ryan Walter and Rick Green. The deal is often considered to be one of the worst trades in Montreal history, mainly because of the level of greatness Langway would achieve in a Washington uniform. Laughlin, Jarvis and Engblom all went to lengthy careers as well. Walter and Green proved to be valuable players and helped the Habs win the 1986 Stanley Cup, but couldn't match the career that Langway had.

Rod made a huge impact on hockey in the US Capital. He won the Norris trophy in each of his first two seasons there, and played with heart and desire that few others could ever match. When Langway arrived in Washington, the Capitals had never made the playoffs. In his 11 seasons with the organization, the club never missed them. Rod was a great leader and a greater teacher. He learned from some of the best while in Montreal - Larry Robinson, Serge Savard and Guy Lapointe - and he taught some of the best - Scott Stevens, xxx and xxx.

There was little doubt that Rod Langway was not only the leader of the Capitals, but many believed he was the most valuable player to his team. In 1984, Langway finished second to Wayne Gretzky in Hart trophy balloting. The Hart trophy goes to the league's MVP. Imagine that - in an era dominated by mindboggling offense and The Great One, a defensive d-man was considered by many to be the league's most valuable player.

For Rod it was his single greatest personal achievement.

"People don't remember the guy who came in second but to be considered one plateau below Gretzky that year was a great honor for me, more than the Norris Trophy."

But Langway wasn't worried about personal honors, rather he wanted team success. While Langway was part of a Stanley Cup team in his rookie season in Montreal, Langway never again got his name on the Cup. That would be is his only real regret in hockey.

"I was probably more disappointed every year I didn't win the Cup." he said. "I have my ring and myname on the Stanley Cup. To this day I feel we should have won a couple more in Montreal and truly believe we should have won a couple in Washington."

When Langway left the NHL in 1993, he had career totals of 51 goals, 278 assists and 329 points in 994 regular season games.

Later, the Caps retired Langways jersey to honor him.

"I'd like to be remembered as a player who came to play every night," said Langway. "I remember when the trade happened. I remember 8,000 people who made noise like 18,000."

http://washingtoncapitalslegends.blogspot.com/2007/03/rod-langway.html

The combination of natural ability and an obsessive work ethic epitomize the traits portrayed by Rod Corry Langway throughout a lengthy career. Along with a true passion for the game, he would complete a 15-year Hall of Fame NHL career earning the respect of all he encountered.

Now recognized as a potential hockey star, Langway was selected during the summer of 1977 in two different leagues. The Montreal Canadiens used their 3rd round choice, 36th overall in the NHL Draft to select the hard-nosed defenceman. Meanwhile over in the rival World Hockey Association, the Birmingham Bulls used their 1st round selection, 6th overall to choose Langway. Despite his selection to captain UNH the next season, Langway decided the money was too good to refuse and signed with the Bulls. He would split the first year between the Bulls and the Hampton Gulls of the AHL, posting an impressive combined total of 43 points in 82 games. However, when the rampant rumours of a merger between the NHL and the WHA failed to develop, he was quick to exercise a special clause in his contract allowing him to terminate the deal and begin his 15-year NHL odyssey.

Immediately, the Capitals named Langway their captain and the tide had begun to turn. After missing the playoffs in every season since their conception in 1974, the newly charged club marched to a winning record and its first playoff berth, led by their captain's Norris Trophy performance and 1st Team All-Star berth.

Over the next ten seasons, Langway was a pillar of strength on the Capitals blueline. A knock-off of old school defencemen from yesteryear, he became known for his fearless shot blocking and goal stopping expertise as confirmed by this Mike Gartner testimony in 1983, "They're the guys (along with xxx) you want out there in the last minute of a 3-2 game because you know they're going to get the puck out." Known in Washington D.C. circles as the "Franchise Saver", he was always willing to sacrifice his body for the club, never giving less than his best effort and expected nothing less from those around him. Teammate Al Jensen once stated, "You have to respect a guy who works as hard as Rod does." Langway would capture a second Norris Trophy in 1984, along with another 1st Team All-Star selection and a 2nd Team All-Star selection in 1985, while participating in five more All-Star contests, including the Rendez-vous '87 match-up versus the USSR National Team.

An extremely patriotic person, Langway rarely missed an opportunity to represent his country on the international stage. He was the captain and leader of Team USA on four separate occasions, the 1981, 1984 and 1987 Canada Cup's, along with the 1982 Pool 'A' World Championship. Despite never tasting team success during the high-calibre tournaments, Langway was always considered one of the best at his position, earning All-Star honours along with the USSR's Viacheslav Fetisov at the 1984 Canada Cup.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Lege...?mem=p200203&type=Player&page=bio&list=#photo

Few players have earned the title "majestic" and perhaps only one Hall of Famer, Jean Beliveau, comes immediately to mind when the word is mentioned. Even fewer players can legitimately be called "Franchise Savers" in the true sense of the word.

Nevertheless, any man who can save a franchise almost single-handedly merits mention, and no one deserves it more than Rod Langway.

"If I had to pick between Langway, Coffey, and Bourque, I'd rather have Langway because he had a better approach to the game. He was more of a team player with a lot more character. And that's the thing you want most of all on a hockey team".-Undrafted Player

When the towering defenseman...

He was not only the chief upper-shaper, the leader-with-words-and-deeds, but a commanding figure like few others in professional hockey.

On top of that, at one point, Langway was the best defenseman in the NHL. Despite the fact that he was known as a defensive defenseman, Langway was able to outdo Ray Bourque and Paul Coffey for the Norris Trophy in 83 and 84.

Langway had blossommed into a superstar for the Caps...

...a franchise maker...

http://books.google.com/books?id=wp...d=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=rod langway&f=false

He was a fearless leader, best known for his shot blocking skills.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Xu...d=0CD8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=rod langway&f=false

Langway's leadership on the Capitals helped him earn the title "Secretary of Defense".

http://books.google.com/books?id=31...0CCsQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=rod langway&f=false

Barring injury, xxx will likely become the best Capital of all time, but may never have the impact that Langway did.

The helmetless tough guy...

http://books.google.com/books?id=4_...0CDAQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=rod langway&f=false

In an era of offense, Langway won consecutive Norris Trophies for his outstanding defensive play...

http://books.google.com/books?id=T9...0CFUQ6AEwCTge#v=onepage&q=rod langway&f=false

As usual, the Capitals' Langway, the US captain, contributed more than just his physical presence on the ice.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washing...esc=U.S.+Brings+Down+Sweden,+5-2&pqatl=google

Unlike the obscure entries elsewhere on this site, Rod Langway's heroics are known to even casual Caps fans.

He was a two-time Norris Trophy winner as best defenseman, longtime captain, a 2002 Hall of Fame inductee, and the Capitals averaged a robust 92 standings points during his 10 full seasons.

Yet none of these represent Langway's greatest achievement. After the 1981-82 season, financial woes caused owner Abe Pollin to consider moving or folding the team.

That triggered a "Save The Caps" ticket-selling campaign.

Then, newly-hired G.M. David Poile engineered a blockbuster offseason trade with Montreal for Langway,
Brian Engbloom, Doug Jarvis, and Craig Laughlin.

Dividends were immediate. In 1982-83, wins went up by 13. Not coincidentally, goals-against went down 55. In 1983-84, wins increased by another 9, while goals-against decreased a staggering 57. Langway's leadership and skill had provided the rising tide that lifted all his teammates.

"He recognizes what he does best," coach Bryan Murray told Sports Illustrated . "He doesn't gamble. He plays very safe.

"He'll go back and make the pass to the same winger time after time if the guy's open, and he's so strong that even when he's being leaned on he can get the puck to his man. He never gets in trouble in his own end."

Even in the '80's, Langway considered himself a throwback. "My style is physical and simple," he wrote in a washingtonpost.com chat. "I focused on clearing the puck and quick transitions from defense and offense.

"I consider myself a proud hockey player. I honor the game and the people who played before me. I like the physical hooking and holding. You made people work to score."

Rod had a similar no-nonsense reaction to stardom. "It was simply my time," he told legendsofhockey.net.

"If I had stayed in Montreal, I would have been the same player, but I wouldn't have received the accolades. Larry (Robinson) was there, and was put on the ice during certain situations that I was getting in Washington.

"Being the captain and being recognized as a key player with the Capitals, along with the way I played, helped me win the Norris Trophy."

As wins increased, so did sales. Attendance peaked in 1989-90 at 17,251 per game - just a few hundred under capacity. And hockey in D.C. was safe.

Laughlin later told sportsfanmagazine.com, "Rod Langway just about single-handedly saved the Washington Capitals. He put hockey on the map here."

Hockey observers around the NHL agree. In his book, "Who's Who of Hockey", Stan Fischler calls Langway no less than a "Majestic franchise-saver."

http://caps-retired.blogspot.com/2008/07/rod-langway-1982-1993.html

 

[jarek]

Wow.. is one of my favorite defensemen ever really going to be a reach?

 

[Nighthawks]

We feel that this player we are going to select is better than some of the defensemen already taken. A two-time Norris Trophy winner as a primarily defensive defenseman, a great value pick at this point and maybe the last remaining legit #1 defenseman, D Rod Langway.

Great pick. Very surprised he fell as far as he did.

 

[Dwight]

I guess that means we're up.

The Guelph Storm will select...

Lionel Conacher, D

Can someone please PM the next person for me? I'm going to bed

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

We feel that this player we are going to select is better than some of the defensemen already taken. A two-time Norris Trophy winner as a primarily defensive defenseman, a great value pick at this point and maybe the last remaining legit #1 defenseman, D Rod Langway.

Good choice, for us it was virtually a coin toss between Langway and Vasiliev. Very similar players IMO.

 

[EagleBelfour]

Good choice, for us it was virtually a coin toss between Langway and Vasiliev. Very similar players IMO.

Indeed very similar players. I don't think I would be able to put them apart on a list.

 

[papershoes]

the kenora thistles are pleased to select:

dave keon (c)

Dave Keon, known as one of the greatest two-way centres in the history of the game, was an amazing athlete who spent 22 seasons in professional hockey. He appeared in an impressive total of 1,725 regular season and playoff games in both the WHA and the NHL, and in all that time he picked up only 151 penalty minutes!

He combined skating and stick handling gifts with superior hockey sense in all zones of the rink, both offensively and defensively. He became so good that he was the pre-eminent checking center while remaining a top offensive force.

Keon was a sparkplug who ignited the Maple Leafs. The following season saw Keon scored 61 points and was named to the Second All Star team in just his second year. More importantly, he began proving himself where all of the game's greats are made or broken - in the Stanley Cup playoffs Keon helped the Leafs capture their first Stanley Cup championship in 11 seasons.

The Leafs would three-peat as Stanley Cup Champions. In 1963 Keon's 7 goals and 12 points paced the Leafs. In 1964, Keon repeated a team leading 7 goals, including all three of the team's goals in the final game in the semi-final against Montreal. He then turned his attention to shutting down the Detroit Red Wings.

In a surprise championship, the Leafs captured their 4th Cup of the decade in 1967. Keon's relentless checking and premier faceoff abilities were first and foremost, and he was rewarded with the Conn Smythe Trophy as the league's most valuable playoff performer.

 

[nik jr]

Jokerit selects RW Brett Hull.


brett hull's weakness was everything outside the offensive zone, but forsberg created more time in the offensive zone than most players in history, and obviously was a great playmaker. i think they would be extremely dangerous together.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Better get a very defensively responsible LW for that line.

 

[jarek]

Better get a very defensively responsible LW for that line.

Why? Few lines are going to be able to match a Forsberg - Hull line offensively, and Forsberg himself was pretty good defensively.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Hull's not exactly great defensively, and Forsberg isn't anything special either.

 

[jarek]

Hull's not exactly great defensively, and Forsberg isn't anything special either.

I always had the impression that Forsberg was pretty good in his own zone.