ATD #10 Lineup Assassination Thread

[MXD]

... I really just don't feel like doing the PP/PK rankings. I mean... They're part of the teams! Why don't we do goaltending, forward, defense, checking line, coaching and puck-rusher evaluation while we're at it?

I think the special units part should have been agreed upon before the very first pick, not after the very last one. Sorry for being so vocal against your idea, but ranking the special units and not the other facets implies special units are actually more important, which is WRONG and FALSE.

 

[VanIslander]

I think the special units part should have been agreed upon before the very first pick, not after the very last one.

The divisional rivalry thread was created by papershoes BEFORE the draft began, and it clearly listed powerplay and penalty killing unit positions.

The PP and PK voting is ASIDE from the team rankings, so if you don't want to submit it then don't.

 

[kruezer]

I thought I'd do another assassination, so here goes....

California Golden Seals
GM: Agent Dale Cooper & Evil Sather
Coach: Tommy Gorman

Brian Propp - Alex Delvecchio - Gordie Howe (A)
Brendan Shanahan - Dubbie Bowie - Theo Fleury
Rod Brind'Amour (A) - Cooney Weiland- Bobby Nystrom
John Sorrell - Dave Poulin - Marcel Bonin
extras:

Scott Stevens (C) - Flash Hollett
Al MacInnis - Mike Ramsey
Mattias Nostrom - Ron Greschner
extra: Dion Phaneuf

Tiny Thompson
Mike Richter

Power play units:
PP1: Shanahan - Delvecchio - Howe - Stevens - MacInnis
PP2: Propp - Weiland - Fleury - Hollett - Greschner

Penalty killing units:
PK1: Propp - Poulin - Stevens - Norstrom
PK2: Brind'Amour - Fleury - MacInnis - Ramsey




You know its kind of ironic that we once worked together Evil Sather, we make some pretty different teams. But thats what makes it fun to review yours and ADC's.

First, you got MacInnis and Phaneuf, so an extra million bonus points.

I feel like your second pair is better than your first, but like I'm skeptical of Mohns I am skeptical of Hollett as well. If you can convince me of Hollett you have a brilliant looking defense, though Norstrom seems a bit out of place, I always liked Norstrom, but I don't know about in an atd.

I don't care too much for Mike Richter, maybe I'm just still pissed about the '96 Canada Cup, I kinda blame him (and Hasek) for ruining Canada's international record during my youth.

Tiny Thompson is a nice starter though, very good choice.

I'm glad you put Shanahan with Fleury, with Bowie that is a brilliant line I think, I am a big Fleury fan as well.

Your third & fourth lines make a lot of sense, which is pretty much what anyone would want (except maybe me this draft, yikes )

I was really split on taking Howe or Gretzky when I picked number two, Howe gets treated much better around here (of course) but is still severely underrated by the general hockey fan populace I think.

I never know what to think about Delvecchio, I will need to be sold on him a bit, I think he's a first liner of course, just where I should place him amongst first liners is in question.

Gorman is a solid, if unspectacular choice at coach, but I think he'll work well with your team, for what I know of him anyway.

Brian Propp is awesome.

That is all.

 

[Diving Pokecheck*]

I never know what to think about Delvecchio, I will need to be sold on him a bit, I think he's a first liner of course, just where I should place him amongst first liners is in question.

Alex Delvecchio retired second all-time in points.
Here are his point finishes.

1952-53 NHL 59 (4)
1955-56 NHL 51 (9)
1957-58 NHL 59 (8)
1960-61 NHL 62 (10)
1961-62 NHL 69 (6)
1962-63 NHL 64 (8)
1964-65 NHL 67 (5)
1965-66 NHL 69 (7)
1966-67 NHL 55 (10)
1967-68 NHL 70 (8)
1968-69 NHL 83 (7)

 

[VanIslander]

Never top-3? Only twice top-5? There's a couple of undrafted modern player who're more of a scorer than that.

Delvecchio is one lucky duck, like Olmstead, playing with the all-time best boosts their numbers.

I see him as an effective but not exceptional first line centre in terms of minutes in an all-time context with the right wingers, but in essence an ATD team's number two centre in terms of talent.

I applaud his consistency and success at the top, as part of a winning puzzle, and not as one of the biggest pieces.

 

[Diving Pokecheck*]

Never top-3? Only twice top-5? There's a couple of undrafted modern player who're more of a scorer than that.

Delvecchio is one lucky duck, like Olmstead, playing with the all-time best boosts their numbers.

I see him as an effective but not exceptional first line centre in terms of minutes in an all-time context with the right wingers, but in essence an ATD team's number two centre in terms of talent.

I applaud his consistency and success at the top, as part of a winning puzzle, and not as one of the biggest pieces.

Alex Delvecchio was also, a great playmaker, as shown by his assists totals.

1952-53 NHL 43 (2)
1957-58 NHL 38 (6)
1961-62 NHL 43 (5)
1962-63 NHL 44 (6)
1964-65 NHL 42 (4)
1965-66 NHL 38 (9)
1966-67 NHL 38 (8)
1967-68 NHL 48 (2)
1968-69 NHL 58 (4)
1969-70 NHL 47 (7)

second in assists twice, top five 5 times.

 

[Diving Pokecheck*]

I applaud his consistency and success at the top, as part of a winning puzzle, and not as one of the biggest pieces.

I have to disagree. He was a big, big piece of Detroit's success. Here are his top 3 finishes in team scoring during the regular season:

52-53 3rd
54-55 3rd
55-56 3rd
57-58 2nd
58-59 3rd
60-61 3rd
61-62 2nd
62-63 2nd
63-64 2nd
64-65 3rd
65-66 3rd
66-67 3rd
67-68 2nd
68-69 2nd
69-70 3rd
70-71 2nd
72-73 3rd

One of his team's best offensive performers for about 20 consecutive years.
Playoffs- top 3 finishes in team scoring
*-Stanley Cup

53-54 t-1rst*
54-55 3rd*
55-56 2nd
56-57 3rd
59-60 1rst
60-61 2nd
62-63 3rd
63-64 3rd
64-65 3rd
65-66 2nd

 

[MXD]

Never top-3? Only twice top-5? There's a couple of undrafted modern player who're more of a scorer than that.

Delvecchio is one lucky duck, like Olmstead, playing with the all-time best boosts their numbers.

I see him as an effective but not exceptional first line centre in terms of minutes in an all-time context with the right wingers, but in essence an ATD team's number two centre in terms of talent.

I applaud his consistency and success at the top, as part of a winning puzzle, and not as one of the biggest pieces.

Man, wake up. You're the only one who has been criticizing Olmstead's pick. He's there as a SUPPORT player, and at least, he has the argument that he was able to be the best support player in the toughest era. Which can't be said for Billy Gilmour.

 

[VanIslander]

Man, wake up. You're the only one who has been criticizing Olmstead's pick. He's there as a SUPPORT player, and at least, he has the argument that he was able to be the best support player in the toughest era. Which can't be said for Billy Gilmour.

The toughest era? ... not gonna compare eras thank you.

My team has two second lines basically (2 and 2A) and the HHOFer is playing there as part of the Silver Seven core.

Olmstead was a first liner in the NHL alongside two all-time greatest and even he himself admitted he didn't have much talent. He is a third liner in an all-time context, second line role player. IMO. I have heard a lot of hoorays but little argument to sway me from my impression. I read, I listen, I think, and I make my assessment.

None of these three are great first liners in an ATD context imo, though each is 2nd line options, though no way together: Olmstead - Delvecchio - Provost

 

[MXD]

The toughest era? ... not gonna compare eras thank you.

My team has two second lines basically (2 and 2A) and the HHOFer is playing there as part of the Silver Seven core.

Olmstead was a first liner in the NHL alongside two all-time greatest and even he himself admitted he didn't have much talent. He is a third liner in an all-time context, second line role player. IMO. I have heard a lot of hoorays but little argument to sway me from my impression. I read, I listen, I think, and I make my assessment.

None of these three are great first liners in an ATD context imo, though each is 2nd line options, though no way together: Olmstead - Delvecchio - Provost

Then I guess you don't want to hear my impression of your 2nd line, which is basically a below-average 2nd C (and even then, it's a stretch), a 4th liner and a 16th forward. Which averages to, well, a 4th line, so I really wonder where your second 2nd line is, probably playing Red Wings - which is one of the very few teams with 2 real second lines in this edition.

I'd take the guy lining up against the best player to have, at this time, played the game. That line is built up for compatibility. I put a big premium on compatibilty when judging teams : thus, a support/grinding/digging/playmaking winger was fit to play with Lemieux, who's probably the best goalscorer to ever play the game, and Neely, who's much more geared towards goalscoring.

Is Anatoli Firsov a better hockey player than Olmstead? Probably. Is he the guy to play alongside Mario and Cam - which means looking to pass and to work along the boards more than to score? NO WAY. While Olmstead made a living battling for pucks along the boards against, sometimes, very tough defenders. It's something Neely (and, to a certain extent, Lemieux) can do, but their skills are to be used somewhere else. Also,Lemieux isn't exactly an average ATD 1st liner. He can win some games alone : Olmstead is there to help him in that department. Not to mention there are some similar players and lesser players than Olmstead playing on some first lines, so I don't know why you're trying to focus on ours...

 

[seventieslord]

Alex Delvecchio retired second all-time in points.
Here are his point finishes.

Ohhhh, so top-10 finishes matter all of a sudden? It didn't matter when we were talking about Brian Propp and Rod Brind'Amour!

Sorry, just bugging you. I had to.

I agree, Delvecchio is a first-liner (clearly) - considering there are 84 first line forwards in this draft he'd be around the middle of that list if I were to rank them. And I love your team so far - it's doing great in my rankings, and I don't think it would have been before the Bowie pick. A Brind'Amour/Weiland duo on the 3rd line is outstanding.

 

[kruezer]

Alex Delvecchio retired second all-time in points.
Here are his point finishes.

Its a fair point, and I mean, I know his stats, but amongst all of these players centering top lines in the draft, where does he fit in your opinion?

Adam Oates
Joe Sakic
Wayne Gretzky
Phil Esposito
Darryl Sittler
Mario Lemieux
Eric Lindros
Cyclone Taylor
Bill Cowley
Elmer Lach
Newsy Lalonde
Syl Apps Sr.
Norm Ullman
Stan Mikita
Vladimir Petrov
Steve Yzerman
Bobby Clarke
Henri Richard
Mats Sundin
Milt Schmidt
Bryan Trottier
Nels Stewart
Jean Beliveau
Frank Boucher
Peter Stastny
Howie Morenz
Sergei Fedorov

 

[BM67]

Delvecchio is a better goal scorer than Ron Francis, and a better playmaker than Norm Ullman, but ranks a bit behind them in overall scoring.

He probably best compares to Johnny Bucyk for overall scoring record, counting peak, 3 year peak and career value.

He does rate much higher in longevity and consistency than peak. I'd rate his 3 year peak behind what Vinny Lecavalier has put together so far, but he is still ahead on 5 year peak and career obviously.

 

[Diving Pokecheck*]

Its a fair point, and I mean, I know his stats, but amongst all of these players centering top lines in the draft, where does he fit in your opinion?

Adam Oates
Joe Sakic
Wayne Gretzky
Phil Esposito
Darryl Sittler
Mario Lemieux
Eric Lindros
Cyclone Taylor
Bill Cowley
Elmer Lach
Newsy Lalonde
Syl Apps Sr.
Norm Ullman
Stan Mikita
Vladimir Petrov
Steve Yzerman
Bobby Clarke
Henri Richard
Mats Sundin
Milt Schmidt
Bryan Trottier
Nels Stewart
Jean Beliveau
Frank Boucher
Peter Stastny
Howie Morenz
Sergei Fedorov

I don't think that there is any argument that Delvecchio is better than Daryl Sittler. Sittler was top 10 in points 5 times, to Delvecchio's 11 times, and was top 10 in assists all of twice, compared to Delvecchio's 8 top 10 assist finishes. Sittler was top 10 in goals 3 times, Delvecchio 6 times.

Eric Lindros had one season where he was much, much better than Delvecchio, but Lindros could only crack the top 10 in scoring 3 times.
Mats Sundin was top 10 in points all of twice.
Bill Cowley scored a lot of points during the WWII era, and before that he got to play with Conacher, Clapper, Shore, Krauts.
I would say that Delvecchio and Ullman are pretty similar in value.

 

[Diving Pokecheck*]

Delvecchio is a better goal scorer than Ron Francis,

I think that Delvecchio is a similar player to Francis, except more skilled.

 

[God Bless Canada]

I had Delvecchio in the early 80s for my HOH Top 100 list, and I haven't seen an argument yet that would change my opinion. I'd put him ahead of Oates, Sittler, Lindros, Petrov, Sundin and Fedorov for top line centres. I don't think he's far behind Cowley or Stastny, either.

Delvecchio was second in assists twice, top five five times, and sixth a couple other times. It's too bad his best hockey was played pre-expansion - he's one of those guys who I think would have shredded the league post-67, because his hockey sense was elite. A tremendous playmaker.

 

[VanIslander]

...That line is built up for compatibility. I put a big premium on compatibilty when judging teams

Good. So do I in building teams.

... Is Anatoli Firsov a better hockey player than Olmstead? Probably.

Probably?

Delvecchio.. best compares to Johnny Bucyk for overall scoring

I can see that.

In terms of the ATD, ss soon as Delvecchio is drafted I expect Larionov to go soon after, but never does. Hence I've never drafted Alex, cuz he's 150-199th overall imo not 110th.

 

[pappyline]

I had Delvecchio in the early 80s for my HOH Top 100 list, and I haven't seen an argument yet that would change my opinion. I'd put him ahead of Oates, Sittler, Lindros, Petrov, Sundin and Fedorov for top line centres. I don't think he's far behind Cowley or Stastny, either.

Delvecchio was second in assists twice, top five five times, and sixth a couple other times. It's too bad his best hockey was played pre-expansion - he's one of those guys who I think would have shredded the league post-67, because his hockey sense was elite. A tremendous playmaker.

I agree completely. He was 78 on my top 100 list.

 

[VanIslander]

I agree completely. He was 78 on my top 100 list.

pappyline and the O6

 

[MXD]

Probably?

I never saw both Olmstead and Firsov play, hence why the ... Probably. But yes, Firsov was more skilled than Olmstead, no questions there.

This said, I'd rather have Olmstead doing Olmstead's job than Firsov. And that's why we drafted olmstead.

 

[VanIslander]

I'd rather have Olmstead doing Olmstead's job than Firsov. And that's why we drafted olmstead.

true,.. but on Beliveau's left side, an upgrade on Olmstead was Joliat, eh?

 

[Jungosi]

On Olmstead's side Mario was an upgrade to Beliveau.

 

[raleh]

On Olmstead's side Mario was an upgrade to Beliveau.

Yep.

There's an awful lot of debate going on here about what I think is unquestionably the best line (first or otherwise) in the draft.

 

[kruezer]

I don't think that there is any argument that Delvecchio is better than Daryl Sittler. Sittler was top 10 in points 5 times, to Delvecchio's 11 times, and was top 10 in assists all of twice, compared to Delvecchio's 8 top 10 assist finishes. Sittler was top 10 in goals 3 times, Delvecchio 6 times.

Eric Lindros had one season where he was much, much better than Delvecchio, but Lindros could only crack the top 10 in scoring 3 times.
Mats Sundin was top 10 in points all of twice.
Bill Cowley scored a lot of points during the WWII era, and before that he got to play with Conacher, Clapper, Shore, Krauts.
I would say that Delvecchio and Ullman are pretty similar in value.

I can agree, I don't want to come across like I am deriding the Delvecchio pick, I think it was solid for sure, I just find him a harder player to judge in an all-time context.

How is this for some groupings... (the groups themselves aren't in order)

Wayne Gretzky
Phil Esposito
Mario Lemieux
Stan Mikita
Jean Beliveau
Howie Morenz

Cyclone Taylor
Newsy Lalonde
Bobby Clarke
Bryan Trottier
Milt Schmidt

Elmer Lach
Joe Sakic
Syl Apps Sr.
Steve Yzerman

Frank Boucher
Peter Stastny
Henri Richard
Nels Stewart

Bill Cowley
Adam Oates
Alex Delvecchio
Norm Ullman
Vladimir Petrov

Eric Lindros
Darryl Sittler
Mats Sundin
Sergei Fedorov

Does that seems like a legit look at the top line centers (according to the roster page) in this draft?

 

[VanIslander]

Cyclone Taylor
Newsy Lalonde
Bobby Clarke
Bryan Trottier
Milt Schmidt

Elmer Lach
Joe Sakic
Syl Apps Sr.
Steve Yzerman

put these two groups together and I'd agree