Article: Players Misled Lemieux

[CMUMike]

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05058/463604.stm

"The only way that Wayne and I would have gotten involved is because we believed there was a new proposal coming from the Players' Association," Lemieux said. "We were told by some of the players we were talking to that there would be a new proposal on the table at the $45 [million] level."

No such offer was forthcoming, however, and NHLPA officials said later they never intended to make one. They insisted they went to New York only because the league had requested a meeting.

NHL commissioner Gary Bettman subsequently suggested the NHLPA had "set up" the league to inflict a public-relations blow. Lemieux avoided such inflammatory rhetoric, but acknowledged he felt he was misled by the players, even though he hasn't figured out their motivation for doing so.

"It's a mystery to me," he said.

Did the hard-line PA'ers block a discussed deal or were the players who spoke to Lemieux part of the setup?

Click to read more...

 

[misterjaggers]

When is commonsense going to prevail?

 

[John Flyers Fan]

When is commonsense going to prevail?

Hope you're not holding your breath.

 

[Isles72]

When is commonsense going to prevail?

January 2007

 

[Pepper]

When is commonsense going to prevail?

Let's just say that it's going to happen about the same time as Strachan writes a good article or Bin Laden converts to judaism.

In other words, not very soon.

 

[Scoogs]

Let's just say that it's going to happen about the same time as Strachan writes a good article or Bin Laden converts to judaism.

In other words, not very soon.

:lol

 

[JimmyPage]

I'm a die-hard hockey fan and work for one of the sports networks. I never thought I would say this but I don't know how to reconcile with watching these players when they come back after the stunt they pulled on my two favourite players and best ever in Gretzky and Lemeiux. I'm sicked by who they misled both parties.

 

[Garry Valk]

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05058/463604.stm


Did the hard-line PA'ers block a discussed deal or were the players who spoke to Lemieux part of the setup?

You should re-phrase this thread. It leads one to believe that the players were misled, when in fact they did the misleading.

Damn players.

 

[CMUMike]

You should re-phrase this thread. It leads one to believe that the players were misled, when in fact they did the misleading.

Damn players.

Done. Thanks.

 

[txpd]

the word that brian burke used was "renigged". the impression i get is not that gretzky and lemiuex were lied to as much as the situation that they agreed to was pulled off the table without their knowledge. I believe that what they expected to happen at that meeting was the plan on the players part at the time mario and gretzky agreed to attend.

by the time the meeting happened goodenow had changed his mind and bailed out of the agreement. that left the two mega stars flapping in the wind.

Burke also seemed to indicate that he sees Donald Fehr's finger prints all over the PA's backing away from making a deal. I wonder.....hmm

 

[i am dave]

Burke also seemed to indicate that he sees Donald Fehr's finger prints all over the PA's backing away from making a deal. I wonder.....hmm

That would not surprise me in the slightest way. We'll probably never be able to prove it, though.

 

[PecaFan]

the word that brian burke used was "renigged".

The word you're looking for is "reneged". "Renigged" just looks scary...

Now, where was that post by Wetcoaster where he claimed that Gretzky and Lemieux never talked to the players, and it was the owners who sandbagged them?

 

[BBB]

It sounds like both Gretzky and Lemieux feel like they were used by the players.

I guess that's how the players thank the two people most repsonsible for the increased success of the league over the last 20 years.

 

[SENSible1*]

The backchannel negotiations were taking place with some prominent players (Stevie Y?...) and some top agents when it looked like Goodenow was losing control of the PA. These were the groups pushing for a $45 M cap. They asked the league to contact Linden, while they worked for support within the executive. Mario and Wayne played a role in this situation.

When Bobby-boy and the hard-liners regained control of the process, they used the oportunity to punish these hockey legends and embarrass the NHL in order to shore up PA solidarity.

Petty and deceptive, but par for the course considering the source.

 

[Weary]

Petty and deceptive, but par for the course considering the source.

Do you really expect any better from Bettman? Petty and deceptive are his calling cards it appears.

 

[SENSible1*]

Do you really expect any better from Bettman? Petty and deceptive are his calling cards it appears.

Since both of these legends have now pointed the finger at the PA executive and their puppetmaster, what possible basis do you have for this statement?

It is clear who sabotaged the talks and why they did so.

 

[Weary]

Since both of these legends have now pointed the finger at the PA executive and their puppetmaster, what possible basis do you have for this statement?

It is clear who sabotaged the talks and why they did so.

Did either of them do that without trusting information they received from Bettman.

Both Gretzky and Lemieux stated that the PA initiated the meeting. That is not true. Daly said that Bettman had him set up the meeting after hearing from a "premier player" -- not the NHLPA. Both also stated that the PA was bringing a proposal. Since the PA didn't initiate the meeting, it's difficult to believe they told the league they were coming with a proposal in hand.

So who was the source of these prevarications? Gary Bettman.

Who set up Gretzky and Lemieux to look foolish? Gary Bettman.

If Bettman had told the truth to those two, they wouldn't have looked so bad in the end.

 

[SENSible1*]

Did either of them do that without trusting information they received from Bettman.

Both Gretzky and Lemieux stated that the PA initiated the meeting. That is not true. Daly said that Bettman had him set up the meeting after hearing from a "premier player" -- not the NHLPA. Both also stated that the PA was bringing a proposal. Since the PA didn't initiate the meeting, it's difficult to believe they told the league they were coming with a proposal in hand.

So who was the source of these prevarications? Gary Bettman.

Who set up Gretzky and Lemieux to look foolish? Gary Bettman.

If Bettman had told the truth to those two, they wouldn't have looked so bad in the end.

Holy spin job Battman.

Gretzky and Lemieux were both in contact with the "prominent players" who told them directly that they would be pressuring the PA to bring a new offer to the table. Read the article and the direct quote from Mario.

"The only way that Wayne and I would have gotten involved is because we believed there was a new proposal coming from the Players' Association," Lemieux said. "We were told by some of the players we were talking to that there would be a new proposal on the table at the $45 [million] level."

That is the source of their belief and why they attended the meeting, AT THE REQUEST OF THE PA AND TREVOR LINDEN, to help smooth things over.

Goodenow quelled the uprising (for the time being) and used the opportunity presented to hurt the NHL and these hockey greats.

Putting the blame on Bettman is laughable at best. He took a gamble and lost, but when it comes down to which side deserves blame for stabbing Mario and Wayne in the back, both of them have let it be known that the PA, not Bettman were at fault.

Sorry, but when it comes down to it, I'll take their interpretation over yours any day of the week.

 

[Ar-too]

And Wetcoaster had me convinced that it was Bettman that convinced Lemieux and Gretzky a deal would be made...

 

[Weary]

Gretzky and Lemieux were both in contact with the "prominent players" who told them directly that they would be pressuring the PA to bring a new offer to the table. Read the article and the direct quote from Mario.

Just read the article again. I see no mention of "prominent players". I also see no mention of contact between players and Gretzky and Lemieux.

He does say "We were told by some of the players we were talking to that there would be a new proposal on the table at the $45 [million] level."

But he doesn't say who we is. He never says that he himself heard from anyone.

Bettman promulgated the story that the NHLPA initiated that meeting. His own right-hand-man, Daly, wouldn't even back up that nonsense.

The league thought the union was about to crumble. They got some back-channel communications from a player that they should have ignored. They didn't. Instead they called a meeting.

The NHLPA came to the meeting expecting negotiation. The NHL came to the meeting expecting capitulation. So Gretzky and Lemieux show up having been informed that the players will cave. The players show up ready to work out a season saving deal.

The union was ready to negotiate -- the league wasn't. Gretzky and Lemieux get embarassed.

Whose fault was that? Gary Bettman's.

 

[Mess]

Just read the article again. I see no mention of "prominent players". I also see no mention of contact between players and Gretzky and Lemieux.

He does say "We were told by some of the players we were talking to that there would be a new proposal on the table at the $45 [million] level."

But he doesn't say who we is. He never says that he himself heard from anyone.

Bettman promulgated the story that the NHLPA initiated that meeting. His own right-hand-man, Daly, wouldn't even back up that nonsense.

The league thought the union was about to crumble. They got some back-channel communications from a player that they should have ignored. They didn't. Instead they called a meeting.

The NHLPA came to the meeting expecting negotiation. The NHL came to the meeting expecting capitulation. So Gretzky and Lemieux show up having been informed that the players will cave. The players show up ready to work out a season saving deal.

The union was ready to negotiate -- the league wasn't. Gretzky and Lemieux get embarassed.

Whose fault was that? Gary Bettman's.

That is well put ...

I see it similar .. There are two lines in the Lemieux Article that support this ..

1) "The only way that Wayne and I would have gotten involved is because we believed there was a new proposal coming from the Players' Association," Lemieux told the Post-Gazette. "We were told by some of the players we were talking to that there would be a new proposal on the table at the $45 (million) level."

2) Lemieux also acknowledged that if the union did make the $45 million offer, he's not sure it would have been accepted by the league.

Two completely different things ..

The Union came to try to save the season and likely would have offered the 45 M but came to negotiate on the other issue.. Salary Arbitration, Revenue Sharing etc ..

If Lemieux is mad because the NHLPA did not offer 45 Mil and if the NHL had no intentions of accepting it then why where Gretzky and Lemieux there in the first place ..

YOU NAILED IT

The union was ready to negotiate -- the league wasn't. Gretzky and Lemieux get embarassed.

Based on Lemieux own words that was always the expected outcome by the NHL..and saving the season was never a NHL thought ..

Lemieux last quote should have been Wayne and I came here with the thought that the OWNERS were WILLING to meet at 45.0 and when NHLPA offered the 45.0 the season could have been saved, and Bettman hinted at the same 45.0 when he cancelled the season... He would have every right to be mad if the Owners were willing to meet in the middle and the NHLPA did not budge .. and offer 45.0 as Mario and Wayne were promised .. but this had no chance from the beginning of working out and the NHL thought the Union was coming to surrender and they read that all wrong .. ..

Saskin's last words we are farther apart now then before .. Is that what you would expect if both sides intended to strike a deal and save a season ???

 

[wazee]

That is well put ...

I see it similar .. There are two lines in the Lemieux Article that support this ..

1) "The only way that Wayne and I would have gotten involved is because we believed there was a new proposal coming from the Players' Association," Lemieux told the Post-Gazette. "We were told by some of the players we were talking to that there would be a new proposal on the table at the $45 (million) level."

2) Lemieux also acknowledged that if the union did make the $45 million offer, he's not sure it would have been accepted by the league.

Two completely different things ..

The Union came to try to save the season and likely would have offered the 45 M but came to negotiate on the other issue.. Salary Arbitration, Revenue Sharing etc ..

If Lemieux is mad because the NHLPA did not offer 45 Mil and if the NHL had no intentions of accepting it then why where Gretzky and Lemieux there in the first place ..

YOU NAILED IT

The union was ready to negotiate -- the league wasn't. Gretzky and Lemieux get embarassed.

Based on Lemieux own words that was always the expected outcome by the NHL..and saving the season was never a NHL thought ..

Lemieux last quote should have been Wayne and I came here with the thought that the OWNERS were WILLING to meet at 45.0 and when NHLPA offered the 45.0 the season could have been saved, and Bettman hinted at the same 45.0 when he cancelled the season... He would have every right to be mad if the Owners were willing to meet in the middle and the NHLPA did not budge .. and offer 45.0 as Mario and Wayne were promised .. but this had no chance from the beginning of working out and the NHL thought the Union was coming to surrender and they read that all wrong .. ..

Saskin's last words we are farther apart now then before .. Is that what you would expect if both sides intended to strike a deal and save a season ???

AFTER the NHLPA changed the script and yanked the rug out from under him, Lemieux said that he was uncertain the league would have accepted a 45M offer. Two points...

First...do we need to clarify the meaning of 'uncertain'? You seem to think 'uncertain' means that the league would absolutely NOT have accepted a 45M offer. To make Mario's words fit your into your theory, you have to change the meaning of the word 'uncertain' to mean 'certain'. How crazy is that?

Second...Lemieux is making his statement AFTER being rebuffed by the NHLPA. We will never know if the league would have accepted IF the NHLPA had followed through with the script they set up with Mario and Gretzky. Since that did not happen, it is not to the owner's advantage to admit they would have accepted 45M. To do so, merely raised the starting point for negotiating a cap.

The NHLPA played Gretzky and Lemieux for fools that day. What a dirty shame.

 

[Pepper]

It never ceases to amaze me how these pro-PA yahoos manage to spin everything to make it look like PA was the good guy and NHL the bad...

Gretzky and Lemieux were told by some PLAYERS that there would be a new proposal coming from the PA but Goodenow crushed that idea and presented nothing new.

Both of these legends were screwed by Goodenow and his bullying tactics, claiming it was Bettman is just ignorant not to mention extremely ridiculous.

 

[SENSible1*]

Just read the article again. I see no mention of "prominent players". I also see no mention of contact between players and Gretzky and Lemieux.

He does say "We were told by some of the players we were talking to that there would be a new proposal on the table at the $45 [million] level."

But he doesn't say who we is. He never says that he himself heard from anyone.

Bettman promulgated the story that the NHLPA initiated that meeting. His own right-hand-man, Daly, wouldn't even back up that nonsense.

The league thought the union was about to crumble. They got some back-channel communications from a player that they should have ignored. They didn't. Instead they called a meeting.

The NHLPA came to the meeting expecting negotiation. The NHL came to the meeting expecting capitulation. So Gretzky and Lemieux show up having been informed that the players will cave. The players show up ready to work out a season saving deal.

The union was ready to negotiate -- the league wasn't. Gretzky and Lemieux get embarassed.

Whose fault was that? Gary Bettman's.

The truly pathetic thing is that you are seriously trying to spin a direct quote into the opposite of what it clearly states. I'll assume you are a lawyer, as no one else would attempt this level of spin job. Of course if you tried this one in a courtroom the judge would get a good belly laugh at your expense.

Here is the quote in its entirety.

"The only way that Wayne and I would have gotten involved is because we believed there was a new proposal coming from the Players' Association," Lemieux said. "We were told by some of the players we were talking to that there would be a new proposal on the table at the $45 [million] level."

There is no disconnect in this direct quote. Wayne and I = WE. The same WE in both sentences, which follow one another in direct succession. Here is the only possible interpretation of the quote.

"The only way that Wayne and I would have gotten involved is because Wayne and I believed there was a new proposal coming from the Players' Association," Lemieux said. "Wayne and I were told by some of the players Wayne and I were talking to that there would be a new proposal on the table at the $45 [million] level."

You are simply full of crap in trying to bring Bettman into this. There is no qualification to include anyone butWayne and I in the definition of "WE."

This is simply a pathetic spin attempt by someone unwilling to allow the true version of the story to go unchallenged because of what it says about the PA's leadership. I'm sure it is embarrassing for you to face reality and admit that Goodenow stabbed two of greatest players in the history of the game in the back as punishment for trying to get a deal done, but bald-faced lying won't cut it in court or on this board.

Don't try and hide from the petty, vindictive and deceptive nature of the LEADER of the PA. Embrace him in all his glory.

 

[dakota]

It never ceases to amaze me how these pro-PA yahoos manage to spin everything to make it look like PA was the good guy and NHL the bad...

Gretzky and Lemieux were told by some PLAYERS that there would be a new proposal coming from the PA but Goodenow crushed that idea and presented nothing new.

Both of these legends were screwed by Goodenow and his bullying tactics, claiming it was Bettman is just ignorant not to mention extremely ridiculous.

exactly