Around the NHL XXXVI: Ladd AND Weise/Fleischmann to Chicago.

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Karlsson is definitely a great player, but calling him the best offensive defenseman one has ever seen play the game is a bit short sighted.

Lidstrom, Leetch, Bourque, and MacInnis all say hello, and that's just within the past 15 years.

The one that said that (me) is also 21 who didn't really get into hockey until like 2010..

And I meant that I've seen in person. I've seen old film of leetch and Orr and Coffey

 

[Thirty One]

Well leetch was actually good defensively, so there's that.

He dealt with the same questions Karlsson is now during his career, including ones from Ranger fans.

 

[Cassano]

He's not better then Leetch offensively.

This.

Leetch had 5 20-goal seasons and 5 50-assist seasons. One 100-point season.

In a much higher scoring era.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

In a much higher scoring era.

Exactly

Honestly, different times.

When Leetch had his 50+ assist seasons, the GPG averages were:

1990-91: 3.46
1991-92: 3.48
1993-94: 3.24
1995-96: 3.14
1996-97: 2.92
2000-01: 2.76

Karlsson's 3 seasons with 50+ assist seasons, the GPG averages were:

2011-12: 2.73
2013-14: 2.74
2015-16: 2.69

 

[Irishguy42]

EDIT: Wrong thread, whoops

 

[Raspewtin]

Great arguement. Now go watch him play and stop reading his stats sheet.
I've seen plenty of sens games and there's 2 things karlsson is, a points machine and a speed demon. A shutdown defenseman, he is not. He gets abused routinely. WAY more than other "norris caliber" guys like Weber, subbam, doughty, etc.

This is not to say he is stu bickel level bad, but to compare him to guys like leetch is laughable.

Wow this is a new one.

 

[Igor Shestyorkin]

Wow this is a new one.

Yeah, i've never seen someone use that as their argument before.

 

[The Gloaming]

When Leetch scored 102 points in the 91-92 season, he was ninth in league scoring. Karlsson is currently fourth.

 

[darko]

No idea how anyone can say that EK is good defensively.

 

[Leetch66]

No idea how anyone can say that EK is good defensively.

LOL...or Subban for that matter .

 

[Raspewtin]

No idea how anyone can say that EK is good defensively.

"Erik Karlsson is good defensively "

wow how did I do that?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

When Leetch scored 102 points in the 91-92 season, he was ninth in league scoring. Karlsson is currently fourth.

Yeah but the high end talent in 91-92 was much better than it is right now.

Look at the names ahead of him, a good number of those guys were in the prime of their careers as some of the best to ever lace up a pair of skates.

 

[Infinitum Vitae*]

"Erik Karlsson is good defensively "

wow how did I do that?

Lirl and I'm the president of the United States of 'Merica.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Karlsson's good defensively by the same measure that Yandle is, although I'd say Yandle's a better defensive player.

If all you care about is possession stats and who "suppresses the most shots" or whatever the **** it is, I suspect he's pretty good. If you actually watch him play against top forwards and try to say he's a a top 4 defenseman without the offensive ability, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Karlsson's good defensively by the same measure that Yandle is, although I'd say Yandle's a better defensive player.

If all you care about is possession stats and who "suppresses the most shots" or whatever the **** it is, I suspect he's pretty good. If you actually watch him play against top forwards and try to say he's a a top 4 defenseman without the offensive ability, I don't know what to tell you.

I don't know about you, but I think minimizing the amount of shots the opposition takes is a pretty important element of being a defenseman in this league.

Would I rather have him defending when my team is hemmed in over a Doughty, Keith or even a McDonagh? No, but I would sure as hell take him over Staal or Girardi despite their reputations as "defensive defensemen", at least I know that if Karlsson gets the puck on his stick, he'll get it out of harms way.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I don't know about you, but I think minimizing the amount of shots the opposition takes is a pretty important element of being a defenseman in this league.

Would I rather have him defending when my team is hemmed in over a Doughty, Keith or even a McDonagh? No, but I would sure as hell take him over Staal or Girardi despite their reputations as "defensive defensemen", at least I know that if Karlsson gets the puck on his stick, he'll get it out of harms way.

I know the advanced stats love Karlsson so people ignore the gameplay, but thats not how I analyze hockey, and I'm giving my opinion. Karlsson is not good when the other team has the puck, which is my definition of defense.

I also think playing with Methot who's one of the most underrated defenseman in the NHL and a very good defender helps Karlsson out. Karlsson's defensive ability just isn't good.

He's an elite defenseman because of his skating and offense, but I think there's a reason why he's worse than Doughty and Keith, the other two are significantly better defensively. The gap between their offense and his offense is smaller than the gap between his defense and their defense.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I know the advanced stats love Karlsson so people ignore the gameplay, but thats not how I analyze hockey, and I'm giving my opinion. Karlsson is not good when the other team has the puck, which is my definition of defense.

I also think playing with Methot who's one of the most underrated defenseman in the NHL and a very good defender helps Karlsson out. Karlsson's defensive ability just isn't good.

He's an elite defenseman because of his skating and offense, but I think there's a reason why he's worse than Doughty and Keith, the other two are significantly better defensively. The gap between their offense and his offense is smaller than the gap between his defense and their defense.

Neither are Staal or Girardi, but you defend them to the death.

Anyway, I don't think Karlsson is very good at defending in his own end either, but hes actually pretty good defending against the rush and he has the wheels to keep up with anyone. The fact that he doesn't spend all that much time defending when hes on the ice is a major plus, since he able to maximize his strengths and has less chance of having his weaknesses exposed.

I'd take Keith over Karlsson too (not for us, I'd much rather have the RHD) but you do realize that there is an almost 40 point gap between Karlsson and both of those guys this year right?


Thats a HUGE difference. The difference between Doughty/Keith to Karlsson is basically Keith Yandle's production this year.

 

[Boruto]

Stalemate with Flyers in points today, Islanders lost with Greiss in net again, Malkin out until the late first to late second round. I'll take it.

 

[Infinitum Vitae*]

I'd take Doughty over all of them because i get to watch a lot of LA games. And i think he's the best Dman in the league.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Neither are Staal or Girardi, but you defend them to the death.

Anyway, I don't think Karlsson is very good at defending in his own end either, but hes actually pretty good defending against the rush and he has the wheels to keep up with anyone. The fact that he doesn't spend all that much time defending when hes on the ice is a major plus, since he able to maximize his strengths and has less chance of having his weaknesses exposed.

I'd take Keith over Karlsson too (not for us, I'd much rather have the RHD) but you do realize that there is an almost 40 point gap between Karlsson and both of those guys this year right?


Thats a HUGE difference. The difference between Doughty/Keith to Karlsson is basically Keith Yandle's production this year.

This is a discussion about how Karlsson compares to some of the best offensive defenseman to play the game, and you are bringing up Staal and Girardi, as if they relate at all to this discussion.

You can use the "Karlsson has the puck a lot" excuse to excuse his defense, but its really not a very good argument. His team doesn't have the puck 95% of the time when he's on the ice, that type of percentage just doesn't exist in a competitive hockey league. I don't even know what his possession percentages are, but I do know that the best players are pretty much only around 60%, so even 60/40 requires the ability to play well without the puck since 40% without the puck is still a substantial number. This isn't the Canadian National Team against the Indian National Team, the NHL is a competitive league from shift to shift and game to game, all players have to have some ability to do everything because of the amount of parity.

About the points, if all three players points are averaged over an 82 game season, Keith is 25 less and Doughty is 28 less, but if there was some way to quantify defensive ability, Keith and Doughty would be substantially higher than Karlsson, so although those numbers might work in Karlsson's favor, its a very one sided argument since we don't really have an agreeable way to quantify defensive ability like we do offensive ability with points or assists or goals.

 

[Boruto]

EK is not bad defensively. Whether he's good or not depends on your threshold for "good" but he's no Girardi.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I'd take Doughty over all of them because i get to watch a lot of LA games. And i think he's the best Dman in the league.

Agree, he's so good. I thought two years ago that McDonagh was going to be right there with him, and although I like how McDonagh's playing, Doughty's completely shed that overrated label that some thought he had. Phenomenal player.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

EK is not bad defensively. Whether he's good or not depends on your threshold for "good" but he's no Girardi.

If EK was someone like John Moore offensively, would you have him as a top 2 defenseman? Top 4? Top 6?

 

[Boruto]

If EK was someone like John Moore offensively, would you have him as a top 2 defenseman? Top 4? Top 6?

Top 4.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Top 4.

Thats what John Moore is.

If Doughty and Keith were only 20 point per season defenseman, they'd still be top 2 defenseman since they can both easily be among the best defensive defenseman in the NHL, even if they were bad offensively.