Around the NHL 2017-2018 Offseason Edition

[Pens x]

You all certainly were right about Riley Sheahan, that guy is awful. The fact that Pittsburgh sweetened the deal with the better draft pick is sad.

What a dumb trade for the Pens. How's Wilson playing so far?

 

[SpookyTsuki]

You all certainly were right about Riley Sheahan, that guy is awful. The fact that Pittsburgh sweetened the deal with the better draft pick is sad.

What a dumb trade for the Pens. How's Wilson playing so far?

Not any different

 

[Reddwit]

Can’t believe what Ottawa just paid for the upgrade from Turris to Duchene! And Turris signed with the Preds to boot.

Poile is such a great GM. Trades from a position of strength and gets filthy returns. How the f*** has this guy added TWO top 6 centers, a 1D and a 1st line winger all by trade in just 4 years. God bless their scouts.
They deserve a Cup.

Sakic got a nasty return as well. The holdout was worth it I guess.

 

[Winger98]

Duchesne is signed for another year, though, and there is nothing saying Turris was at all interested in re-signing in Ottawa. Next season will be interesting with Duchene, Brassard, and Karlsson in contract years. If they slip, or those guys just don't want to re-sign, what do you do? Especially Karlsson, who would gut that place if he leaves.

Poile deserves all of the credit in the world, too. He's put Nashville into an incredible position. Johansen-Turris-Bonino down the middle is pretty darn good, and the main guys on their blueline are locked in pretty affordably for the next few years to boot.

 

[Reddwit]

Duchesne is signed for another year, though, and there is nothing saying Turris was at all interested in re-signing in Ottawa. Next season will be interesting with Duchene, Brassard, and Karlsson in contract years. If they slip, or those guys just don't want to re-sign, what do you do? Especially Karlsson, who would gut that place if he leaves.

Poile deserves all of the credit in the world, too. He's put Nashville into an incredible position. Johansen-Turris-Bonino down the middle is pretty darn good, and the main guys on their blueline are locked in pretty affordably for the next few years to boot.

True, Ottawa was in a bad situation with Turris....but it just seems crazy to give up a 2C who had AGREED TO AN EXTENSION WITH THE ACQUIRING TEAM plus a 1st plus a 1st round prospect plus a 3rd round pick without being a Cup favorite (and a backup who could be a slight cap burden or could be a backup blessing - a neutral IMO) for 1.7 years of an injury-burdened Matt Duchene who, at the age of Turris, has no real incentive to re-sign with perpetually cap-strapped Ottawa - at least not for a cap friendly deal. If this were 3 or 4 years ago, I’d probably understand the move as a solid upgrade at center but I just don’t see the jump from Turris to Duchene as a major needle-mover these days.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Ottawa could be for real this year

 

[Winger98]

True, Ottawa was in a bad situation with Turris....but it just seems crazy to give up a 2C who had AGREED TO AN EXTENSION WITH THE ACQUIRING TEAM plus a 1st plus a 1st round prospect plus a 3rd round pick without being a Cup favorite (and a backup who could be a slight cap burden or could be a backup blessing - a neutral IMO) for 1.7 years of an injury-burdened Matt Duchene who, at the age of Turris, has no real incentive to re-sign with perpetually cap-strapped Ottawa - at least not for a cap friendly deal. If this were 3 or 4 years ago, I’d probably understand the move as a solid upgrade at center but I just don’t see the jump from Turris to Duchene as a major needle-mover these days.

Ottawa gave up a lot, but does Turris agree to that sort of deal with Colorado or Ottawa? Does colorado trade with Ottawa at all without Nashville's assets?

Meanwhile, Ottawa has to be looking at this situation where they have started the season well, and they could be fighting for a playoff spot in February. Do they want to go to the trade deadline with a center who won't sign with them while feeling unable to trade him without throwing the towel in on a playoff push? Duchene gets them out of making that decision this year, while putting them into position to keep fighting for the playoffs.

Ottawa's really not in a great position to throw themselves in a rebuild - which is what would be happening if they dumped Turris for futures. And I don't think they worry about paying Duchene a fair market deal ($8m per is my guess, or something close, if Duchene puts up the sort of points he's been capable of). The guy can be a #1 quality center, and that's something you don't really quibble about paying a fair price for.

 

[Frk It]

I’m a big Sam Girard fan, but that’s a weak ass return for Colorado for what i think Duchene is.

Ken Holland look at David Poile, please. That’s what not being complacent at your job looks like.

Edit - I missed the picks that Colorado picked up, as well as Shane Bowers... not a bad return after seeing the entire trade.

 

[Claypool]

Ken Holland look at David Poile, please. That’s what not being complacent at your job looks like.

What young prospects do you want Holland to start dealing?

 

[Frk It]

What young prospects do you want Holland to start dealing?

Nashville drafts good and plugs prospects in early. Girard was drafted around same time as Hronek and got some NHL action this year which upped his trade value without a doubt.

Then Poile has been both pretty agressive and creative with trades the last few years.

Holland doesn’t take nearly as many risks. He doesn’t lose big, but he doesn’t win big either.

 

[Claypool]

Nashville drafts good and plugs prospects in early. Girard was drafted around same time as Hronek and got some NHL action this year which upped his trade value without a doubt.

Then Poile has been both pretty agressive and creative with trades the last few years.

Holland doesn’t take nearly as many risks. He doesn’t lose big, but he doesn’t win big either.

Didn't answer my question.

 

[Frk It]

Didn't answer my question.

It would depend on what other teams are willing to move, which I don’t know, so I can’t answer that... that’s why I was speaking in general terms, and used an example of another long time GM who Ithink is doing better with drafting and making trades.

This iOS update sure makes posting via mobile fun..... Ughhhhh

 

[Reddwit]

What young prospects do you want Holland to start dealing?

The ones his team seems incapable of drafting for the past 15 years.

 

[Reddwit]

Ottawa gave up a lot, but does Turris agree to that sort of deal with Colorado or Ottawa? Does colorado trade with Ottawa at all without Nashville's assets?

Meanwhile, Ottawa has to be looking at this situation where they have started the season well, and they could be fighting for a playoff spot in February. Do they want to go to the trade deadline with a center who won't sign with them while feeling unable to trade him without throwing the towel in on a playoff push? Duchene gets them out of making that decision this year, while putting them into position to keep fighting for the playoffs.

Ottawa's really not in a great position to throw themselves in a rebuild - which is what would be happening if they dumped Turris for futures. And I don't think they worry about paying Duchene a fair market deal ($8m per is my guess, or something close, if Duchene puts up the sort of points he's been capable of). The guy can be a #1 quality center, and that's something you don't really quibble about paying a fair price for.

I can understand all that sans your last line which I suppose is where we disagree. I don't see Duchene as a "#1 quality center" unless we're talking about the statistical definition of being a #1 center in which case Turris is also up there. I do think Duchene has the edge on Kyle I just don't think its that major when you subtract the hype for Duchene. It'll also be horribly painful for Ottawa ownership to give up that kind of money for Duchene who has no real incentive to play nice for a team he'll be a veteran of for 1.5 seasons as a UFA.


(Edit: Since Duchene's big season in 13/14, he's averaged a 60 point pace over 320 games. Turris over those same seasons has averaged a 57 point pace in 310 games. That's fairly indicative of how far apart I'd consider them to be, maybe a touch more in favor of Duchene.)

I mean, a Turris willing to agree to an extension is probably worth a 1st, a 3rd and Bowers himself, so it seems like Ottawa essentially gave up double that. That may be what Ottawa needed to do to maximize their potential playoff success right now but it sure seems like Dorion painted himself into a corner to get there.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Nashville drafts good and plugs prospects in early. Girard was drafted around same time as Hronek and got some NHL action this year which upped his trade value without a doubt.

Then Poile has been both pretty agressive and creative with trades the last few years.

Holland doesn’t take nearly as many risks. He doesn’t lose big, but he doesn’t win big either.

Which is why my preferred next GM is Poile's assistant GM.

 

[Claypool]

The ones his team seems incapable of drafting for the past 15 years.

I don't recall Nashville ever drafting an impact forward.

 

[TheMule93]

As of now, Laine has 14 points in his last 7 games against the stars

Scheiffle has 22 points in his last 10 games against the Stars

 

[Frk It]

I don't recall Nashville ever drafting an impact forward.

Remember that time we drafted a good defenseman? Me neither.

At least they have been able to trade for some.

 

[Reddwit]

I don't recall Nashville ever drafting an impact forward.

Well maybe you remember them trading for a couple of impact forwards because of them killing it elsewhere in the draft then.

In the meantime, remember when Detroit traded one of their impact winger prospects for an impact player at ANY position? Yeah, me neither.

 

[Winger98]

Nashville drafts good and plugs prospects in early. Girard was drafted around same time as Hronek and got some NHL action this year which upped his trade value without a doubt.

Then Poile has been both pretty agressive and creative with trades the last few years.

Holland doesn’t take nearly as many risks. He doesn’t lose big, but he doesn’t win big either.

Poile has done an excellent job at managing his cap structure, too. It's very impressive looking at how well he has set Nashville up for the next several years. All of their main guys are locked in, they aren't really overspending on anyone (alright, maybe Rinne). Yeah, they could probably use another top6 wing, but that's not really a huge need. And they have the cap space to swing a deal.

In slightly related news, apparently Brian Lawton is saying OEL is going to be the next big name on the trade market? Talk about swinging big trades to bring in needed pieces. I'm not sure what we could offer (and be willing to offer) to pull him from Arizona.

I can understand all that sans your last line which I suppose is where we disagree. I don't see Duchene as a "#1 quality center" unless we're talking about the statistical definition of being a #1 center in which case Turris is also up there. I do think Duchene has the edge on Kyle I just don't think its that major when you subtract the hype for Duchene. It'll also be horribly painful for Ottawa ownership to give up that kind of money for Duchene who has no real incentive to play nice for a team he'll be a veteran of for 1.5 seasons as a UFA.


(Edit: Since Duchene's big season in 13/14, he's averaged a 60 point pace over 320 games. Turris over those same seasons has averaged a 57 point pace in 310 games. That's fairly indicative of how far apart I'd consider them to be, maybe a touch more in favor of Duchene.)

I mean, a Turris willing to agree to an extension is probably worth a 1st, a 3rd and Bowers himself, so it seems like Ottawa essentially gave up double that. That may be what Ottawa needed to do to maximize their potential playoff success right now but it sure seems like Dorion painted himself into a corner to get there.

Don't really disagree with any of it other than not sure why Ottawa would be hesitant to pay up for Duchene. If they like him, and I have to assume they do considering what they gave up, and he doesn't bomb for them...just pay the man and be happy you're not having to run Derek Brassard out there as your #1 center, ya know?

And they really seemed to not like Turris for some reason. I read yesterday that they never even tabled a 6 year offer to the guy. For whatever reason Turris just wasn't Ottawa's guy.

 

[Bench]

Nashville has pretty consistently made great moves, but their lack of elite talent at center has kept them from being one of the powerhouses. That Kopitar, Toews, or Crosby type needed to log those big minutes. They've attempted to address that recently and, the impressive part, is that they accomplished it while still keeping a fantastic blueline. I'm not handing them the Cup or anything, but savvy trading has kept them relevant to their goals. That's the type of activity I think many of us here want to see out of our Red Wings management. We want to see a progression towards that goal of winning through more active moves.

We're approaching the 10 year anniversary of the last Cup. Pretty wild to think about how in that span we've seen zero meaningful trades. And it's also a grim reminder our mortality. Hug your children and call your parents today for me.

In slightly related news, apparently Brian Lawton is saying OEL is going to be the next big name on the trade market? Talk about swinging big trades to bring in needed pieces. I'm not sure what we could offer (and be willing to offer) to pull him from Arizona.

Oh boy. Like all these big trades, I don't see the Wings having the horses without gutting the current team. But damn, he's young enough you can still go all in on him. If you're optimistic about a 4-5 year turn around for the Wings, that puts OEL in his early 30's.

 

[chances14]

an impressive thing to me is how poile has been able to negotiate these big deals without adding in ntc or nmc

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Nashville has pretty consistently made great moves, but their lack of elite talent at center has kept them from being one of the powerhouses. That Kopitar, Toews, or Crosby type needed to log those big minutes. They've attempted to address that recently and, the impressive part, is that they accomplished it while still keeping a fantastic blueline. I'm not handing them the Cup or anything, but savvy trading has kept them relevant to their goals. That's the type of activity I think many of us here want to see out of our Red Wings management. We want to see a progression towards that goal of winning through more active moves.

We're approaching the 10 year anniversary of the last Cup. Pretty wild to think about how in that span we've seen zero meaningful trades. And it's also a grim reminder our mortality. Hug your children and call your parents today for me.



Oh boy. Like all these big trades, I don't see the Wings having the horses without gutting the current team. But damn, he's young enough you can still go all in on him. If you're optimistic about a 4-5 year turn around for the Wings, that puts OEL in his early 30's.

I like David Poile a lot but it is probably worth noting the flavor of the month aspect of this here. Last year was the first time a team managed by him made it beyond the second round since 89-90 in Washington. So him busting his streak came at about the same time as the demise of our playoff streak....

I think he has had a wonderful career and he has had a different set of circumstances. But I mean I think it is worth pointing out while he has consistently built playoff teams, he hasn't actually had ultimate success.

Again I would love to have his Assistant GM as our next GM. But just saying Bench lets not get toooo carried away. Also Poile is a guy that gets compared to our GM at times by hockey insiders, they are pretty similar guys in my opinion.

 

[Claypool]

That's the type of activity I think many of us here want to see out of our Red Wings management. We want to see a progression towards that goal of winning through more active moves.

I'll argue the pieces the Red Wings need (#1 center, #1 defenseman) will never be available. The only trades worth making for Detroit right now and in the near future are acquiring more draft picks and prospects. Have you seen the cost of a top 4 defenseman? Trading to fill one hole creates another.

 

[Winger98]

I like David Poile a lot but it is probably worth noting the flavor of the month aspect of this here. Last year was the first time a team managed by him made it beyond the second round since 89-90 in Washington. So him busting his streak came at about the same time as the demise of our playoff streak....

I think he has had a wonderful career and he has had a different set of circumstances. But I mean I think it is worth pointing out while he has consistently built playoff teams, he hasn't actually had ultimate success.

Again I would love to have his Assistant GM as our next GM. But just saying Bench lets not get toooo carried away. Also Poile is a guy that gets compared to our GM at times by hockey insiders, they are pretty similar guys in my opinion.

It should probably be pointed out that one of those circumstances was Washington having to get by the Islanders every year to get out of the second round. The best Capital teams had the misfortune of running into what was arguably the last true dynasty team.

I sort of wish Ilitch had put some of the constraints on Holland that Poile has had in Nashville. Being able to spend whatever as long as they could make it cap compliant has been a bit of a crutch, imo.