Around the NHL 2017-2018 Offseason Edition

[izlez]

i envy rangers fans

wish our ******ed organization would get the memo and move in the right direction for once. Guarantee that the rangers will be rebuilt and contending waaay before us.

Last place in the division and only getting worse?

These boards are absolutely hilarious.

 

[Bench]

Decisions like: Trading a 2nd and 3rd round pick for Smith, signing Smith to a 4 year deal, and waiving Smith?

Somehow I don't think you guys would be praising Holland for wheeling and dealing when those are the resulting moves.

The only reason Smith isn't on the roster right now is because he rejected a contract from the Wings. That might not be a great example.

And the Rangers are being praised for their willingness to rebuild faster and more proactively than the Wings. That's it. They've had more recent success than the Wings, yet they are the team that seems completely unsatisfied with their roster and results.

As fans, that's all we ask. We don't ask for perfect results every year. We're not delusional. But if you're not aggressively trying to get back on top, what the hell is the point?

 

[Redder Winger]

Decisions like: Trading a 2nd and 3rd round pick for Smith, signing Smith to a 4 year deal, and waiving Smith?

Somehow I don't think you guys would be praising Holland for wheeling and dealing when those are the resulting moves.

Strawman.

Nobody is praising the Rangers for that move.

The Rangers trading away Lundquist, Nash and McDonough would be a little like the Red Wings trading away Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Kronwall the trade deadline AFTER they traded for Cole and Zidlicky.

It's throwing in their cards when they realize it's over.
They went for it last year. THey came into this season optimistic. But reality has set in.

By aggressively rebuilding now, they can reduce the length of their rebuild.

Or they could just keep resigning their old guys and depth guys to lifetime deals until they retire and hope somehow a new generation emerges.

 

[izlez]

Strawman.
Nobody is praising the Rangers for that move.

The two things happened at the same time. I very much assumed everyone was talking about the two as the same thing.

The Rangers trading away Lundquist, Nash and McDonough would be a little like the Red Wings trading away Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Kronwall the trade deadline AFTER they traded for Cole and Zidlicky.

And their GM took the quick action of making that decision when his team was in last place in his division as the trade deadline approaches. How bold. Maybe Holland will do the same thing once he reaches that point.

It's throwing in their cards when they realize it's over. They went for it last year. THey came into this season optimistic. But reality has set in.

Ideal GM: Let all other teams and your players know you are having a fire sale. Lower their prices. Get bad deals or try to convince the ones you can't unload that THEY were part of the future plans alllll along.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Ah yes, time to tear them down to make yourself feel better about your own failed team. This is the new hallmark of the true Wings fan. We used to have our own success as an accomplishment, but now we look to the failure of others as a way prop ourselves up.

Since the Wings last trip to the Cup Finals in 2009, the Wings have won exactly 3 playoff series and a total of 25 playoff games. They haven't moved beyond the 2nd round.

In that same time frame, the Rangers have won 9 playoff series and a total of 47 games. They've been to the Cup Finals in 2014, and the Conference finals in 2012 and 2015.

But sure, what a failure the Rangers are. Nothing like the exemplar of success the Wings have been for the last decade.

"if you cut out our success and not theirs, they've won more games". Yeah. Duh.

Last 10 seasons both have made the playoffs 9 out of the 10 years. We have 56 playoff wins, they have 55. We have 1 cup and 1SCF, they have 1 SCF. Regular season is very close too.
Sure our success came more in the early part of those 10 years and their came in the middle, but all things considered we've had similar success and neither team has exactly been taking huge risks. Rangers live on FA signings, which was eventually gonna fail due to the volatile nature of the FA market. We live on drafting, which was eventually gonna fail too due to draft position. I see nothing to envy about the Rangers. They failed to reach the ultimate prize with prime core players, we succeeded. They're not great at drafting (aside from lucking into Lundqvist, most of their good players have been FAs) which doesn't bode too well for what may now be their attempt at a tank-and-build. And it's unlikely they're truly going to have the patience to do it right. At least nothing indicates they would have. They love making a big splash in FA, they frequently trade futures for established players, and again their track record of actually building success through the draft is questionable.

 

[lomekian]

Don't see why the usual suspects are wristing themselves blind over a statement to the fans advertising a sell off in advance. I actually think that the great sell off tank policy that people are chosing to interpret it as is unlikely given their roster make up - I'd be very surprised if its actually a bold rebuild fire-sale, given that this doesn't look like a deadline or summer with a lot of big buyers.

The players they are looking to move are either UFAs or no longer useful or not much to begin with. Similarly the Wings are trying to sell off UFAs and borderline roster players

If they do tear it down in full-rebuild style, I'll give them points for decisiveness...but contrary to what certain people say, decisiveness is only positive if you make good decisions. That is very much up in the air given their recent trading record. Also, getting tumescent over a PR softening statement is a little premature, given that no trades have happened, and the ones they are keen to make are unlikely to yield great returns.

If they make great trades, getting good or unusually smart returns I'll give them the credit they deserve, as has been afforded to TBL, Chicago until recently, COL's repair job since the summer etc. Until then, all I see is people shooting their bolt at a flash of ankle, particularly given the vagueness of the statement.

People can rightly criticise some of the UFA re-signings and external UFA signings, but its important to remember that since Flip left, DRW really haven't had that many saleable assets that it would strategically or politically wise to sell. Who is it on this roster (or in recent years) is actually worth much in terms of market value that isn't either a young player on an upswing or an older player on a downswing? People can want the firesale all they want, but its only worth it if getting good picks or prosepcts in return, otherwise you are simply playing the draft lottery, which in isolation only works if you get handed Sid and Geno via some warm balls.

 

[Bench]

"if you cut out our success and not theirs, they've won more games". Yeah. Duh.

Last 10 seasons both have made the playoffs 9 out of the 10 years. We have 56 playoff wins, they have 55. We have 1 cup and 1SCF, they have 1 SCF. Regular season is very close too.
Sure our success came more in the early part of those 10 years and their came in the middle, but all things considered we've had similar success and neither team has exactly been taking huge risks. Rangers live on FA signings, which was eventually gonna fail due to the volatile nature of the FA market. We live on drafting, which was eventually gonna fail too due to draft position. I see nothing to envy about the Rangers. They failed to reach the ultimate prize with prime core players, we succeeded. They're not great at drafting (aside from lucking into Lundqvist, most of their good players have been FAs) which doesn't bode too well for what may now be their attempt at a tank-and-build. And it's unlikely they're truly going to have the patience to do it right. At least nothing indicates they would have. They love making a big splash in FA, they frequently trade futures for established players, and again their track record of actually building success through the draft is questionable.

The point was that the Rangers have had more success, more recently. And yet, they are going all in on rebuilding into a contender. They are making the right call knowing their core isn't going to win. Meanwhile, the Wings management and yourself cling to a vision of their franchise that died the minute #5 retired.

The Wings have been terrible, and made terrible moves to get here. No amount of "the Rangers also suck" is going to change that.

 

[Red Stanley]

i envy rangers fans



wish our ******ed organization would get the memo and move in the right direction for once. Guarantee that the rangers will be rebuilt and contending waaay before us.

It might surprise you how Rangers fans are responding to that tweet.

 

[Red Stanley]

Not that I'm surprised in the least at the responses, but let me get this straight ... we're not rebuilding, but the Rangers tweeting about rebuilding constitutes an aggressive rebuilding strategy toward becoming a contender?

 

[Red Stanley]

Being proactive instead of letting everything crumble around you to force your hand, yeah, that's what a GM should do.

You mean like what's happening right now? Or do you want to imply this Rangers team was built to fail?

 

[Winger98]

If you're Peter Chiarelli how much is Ryan McDonagh and Henrik Lundquist worth to you?

 

[Claypool]

lol, you people think the Rangers are going to rebuild? As soon as a sexy free agency hits the market they'll open up their wallet. It's New York.

 

[Pavels Dog]

The point was that the Rangers have had more success, more recently. And yet, they are going all in on rebuilding into a contender. They are making the right call knowing their core isn't going to win. Meanwhile, the Wings management and yourself cling to a vision of their franchise that died the minute #5 retired.

The Wings have been terrible, and made terrible moves to get here. No amount of "the Rangers also suck" is going to change that.

Rangers have one core player worth a damn and he’s about to be 36 and he’s declining. Even in the post-Lidstrom years we had Dats, Z and Kronner all younger than Lundy is now and Babcock as coach. I’ve said it before but a worse coach or worse core would have kicked off our rebuild earlier. Rangers are by no means a model of how to rebuild though. Let’s see what happens, but their draft record is shoddy and they love trading futures and making a big UFA noise. I could see them going right back to their old ways next year. Do they have the patience to develop youth the right way? I somehow doubt it. To me this looks like another attempt at a quick fix.

 

[Redder Winger]

If you're Peter Chiarelli how much is Ryan McDonagh and Henrik Lundquist worth to you?

The Oilers are 14 points out.
McDonagh has value. Lundquist does not.

 

[Winger98]

The Oilers are 14 points out.
McDonagh has value. Lundquist does not.

He does if you want to win.

 

[Redder Winger]

He does if you want to win.

You think they're going to make up 14 points and make the playoffs?
Or is this for the next 3 years?

Do you bet on $8.5M a year, long term on a 36 year old netminder whose stats have declined over the last 32 years?

McDonough is young enough to make a long-term difference in Edmonton.

 

[Dotter]

When recently built playoff teams miss and become sellers for the tank, they have good players that saturate the market, which ultimately lowers the value for other sellers (like us). Will Petr Mrazek and Mike Green have the value we all had hoped for? I don't know now...

 

[Winger98]

You think they're going to make up 14 points and make the playoffs?
Or is this for the next 3 years?

Do you bet on $8.5M a year, long term on a 36 year old netminder whose stats have declined over the last 32 years?

McDonough is young enough to make a long-term difference in Edmonton.

It's the next three years. That would take them through the rest of the deals to RNH, Russell, Sekera, and Larsson. It will also be what's remaining of truly productive years from Lucic. If they're going to win with the group they have, that's the time frame.

And Lundquist hasn't really declined. He had an off-year last year, I think he battled some injuries. This year he's sporting a .917 sv%. Over his career he's clocked a .919 sv%. I have a hard time looking at being .002% off your career average as a decline.

If I had more faith in Chiarelli, maybe I'd push for a different path, but I think he's already messed up a pretty darn good situation in Edmonton.

 

[Redder Winger]

It's the next three years. That would take them through the rest of the deals to RNH, Russell, Sekera, and Larsson. It will also be what's remaining of truly productive years from Lucic. If they're going to win with the group they have, that's the time frame.

And Lundquist hasn't really declined. He had an off-year last year, I think he battled some injuries. This year he's sporting a .917 sv%. Over his career he's clocked a .919 sv%. I have a hard time looking at being .002% off your career average as a decline.

If I had more faith in Chiarelli, maybe I'd push for a different path, but I think he's already messed up a pretty darn good situation in Edmonton.

No way. Lundquist has declined/
Ask any Rangers fan.
And then check the stats.

2.77 is the highest GAA of his career.

Check the GAA slide.
1.96
2.05
2.36
2.25
2.48
2.74
2.77

His .917 save percentage is up from last year but still quite a bit lower than the .930 and .926 he posted in his prime.
He'll be 36 at the end of the year.
He's got 3 more years left at $8.5M.

Oilers would be crazy to take on this deal at this point.

 

[Winger98]

No way. Lundquist has declined/
Ask any Rangers fan.
And then check the stats.

2.77 is the highest GAA of his career.

Check the GAA slide.
1.96
2.05
2.36
2.25
2.48
2.74
2.77

His .917 save percentage is up from last year but still quite a bit lower than the .930 and .926 he posted in his prime.
He'll be 36 at the end of the year.
He's got 3 more years left at $8.5M.

Oilers would be crazy to take on this deal at this point.

.930/.926 is also far above his career average. You're making an argument that's akin to holding up Lidstrom's 80 point season, comparing it to him scoring 62 and 70 and then blowing that up to be some horrible decline. You're picking outliers.

And GAA is more dependent on the team than on the goalie. Just compare this year and last where he had a far worse sv% last season and posted a better GAA. The two GAAs I bolded had seasons with identical sv%s but the latter is some sort of evidence of decline?

 

[Laser Rayzor]

Not sure if this has already been posted but I thought it was interesting.

 

[TheMule93]

i'd be in tears too if we win dahlin, it would mean that there is actual hope for the franchise in the next decade

 

[Redder Winger]

.930/.926 is also far above his career average. You're making an argument that's akin to holding up Lidstrom's 80 point season, comparing it to him scoring 62 and 70 and then blowing that up to be some horrible decline. You're picking outliers.

And GAA is more dependent on the team than on the goalie. Just compare this year and last where he had a far worse sv% last season and posted a better GAA. The two GAAs I bolded had seasons with identical sv%s but the latter is some sort of evidence of decline?

Last two seasons:
1) Save percentage is down one year. Below the career average the other year.
910 was his worst ever. This year it's back to 918, which would have been his worst of this decade. Not by a lot. But stiill.
2) Two worst GAAs of his career. By far.

Look - even save percentage is a team stat to a degree. Bad teams give up high percentage scoring chances.

Can the Oilers, with $21M tied up in McDavid and Draisatl take on a 36 year old goalie who makes almost $9M a year for the next 3 years?

I wouldn't do it.

The Islanders, who need to show John Tavares they're serious, might be desperate enough to try such a thing.

 

[Redder Winger]

Not sure if this has already been posted but I thought it was interesting.

Who replaces Pav?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Who replaces Pav?

Yeah not a new quote by any means. These exact kind of comments were why a lot of people thought he was leaving.

Of course if Babs cannot get a better d-core in Toronto he isn't going to see out his contract there in my opinion. In that instance it won't be Babs walking away though more than likely.