Are two Czechs better than any Soviet player ever?

[canucks4ever]

And only against weaker opponents. How does this not get through your head? His edge from the stats you showed are from the Canada game which was a nothing game where the candians didnt show up at all and the W. Germany, Norway and Romania games in olympics of 1980. He scored 13 points vs those opponents out of all those 30 points you believe are significant. And he scored only 1 point in 2 games that actually mattered. Thats right. Stastny played 6 games and had 13 of 14 points against the weakest opponents. Thats not an edge. That padding your stats.

So the game against canada doesnt count because they didnt try. However, when the soviet union beat sweden 9-2 in a complete blow out, that game is so competitive. Sweden was tring so hard, lol.

 

[canucks4ever]

Yes that is a fact just like it is a fact that Makarov clearly was considered the superior player during this time frame by the people who actually followed European hockey and these tournaments at the time.

A statistical edge over 3 international tournaments < The general consensus in Europe that Makarov was the superior player overall during this timeframe.

And it is quite interesting that with all your talk about how Makarov benefited from playing on the stacked Soviet team you fail to take into account that Makarov actually was disadvantaged statistically in his first international tournament at age 19 (1978 WHC) due to playing behind 3 suberb lines on that stacked team (Kharlamov-Petrov-Mikhailov, Kapustin-Zhluktov-Balderis and Golikov-Golikov-Maltsev) for much of the tournament and therefore getting a limited amount of icetime as a rookie on the national team. If we look at the tournaments (1979 WHC and 1980 WOG) when Makarov had managed to earn a big role on that stacked team Makarov overall scored at a higher rate than Stastny. And like mentioned many times already Makarov was more importantly clearly considered the superior player during this time frame by the people who actually watched them play alot.

He did not score at a higher rate from 1978-1980, and he was outperformed in the nhl playoffs from 1990 to 1995.

I also found this interesting. Stastny gets traded in 1994 away from New Jersey.

Peter Stastny: 16 points in 17 games
Sergei Makarov: 68 points in 80 games

Stastny was 2 years older and scoring at a higher rate.

 

[Hobnobs]

So the game against canada doesnt count because they didnt try. However, when the soviet union beat sweden 9-2 in a complete blow out, that game is so competitive. Sweden was tring so hard, lol.

But thats not the only game in the tournament. This is the problem when you're having a biased view. You think in these simplistic terms. Nowhere did I state that Makarov didnt score against weaker opponents. Ive stated that he also scored on stronger and Stastny did not. You have yet to counter this because you cant so you keep on repeating the same argument over and over again.

He did not score at a higher rate from 1978-1980, and he was outperformed in the nhl playoffs from 1990 to 1995.

I also found this interesting. Stastny gets traded in 1994 away from New Jersey.

Peter Stastny: 16 points in 17 games
Sergei Makarov: 68 points in 80 games

Stastny was 2 years older and scoring at a higher rate.

Stastny had still played for a long time in NA and Makarov was a 31 year old rookie. How is this hard for you to understand? You think its a coincidence that Marian Stastny had almost the exact same career trajectory as Makarov?

 

[canucks4ever]

But thats not the only game in the tournament. This is the problem when you're having a biased view. You think in these simplistic terms. Nowhere did I state that Makarov didnt score against weaker opponents. Ive stated that he also scored on stronger and Stastny did not. You have yet to counter this because you cant so you keep on repeating the same argument over and over again.



Stastny had still played for a long time in NA and Makarov was a 31 year old rookie. How is this hard for you to understand? You think its a coincidence that Marian Stastny had almost the exact same career trajectory as Makarov?

How does playing for a long time in north america help stastny? If anything, it would make him burn out even quicker. This is downright laughable. Stastny playing in North America at a younger age explains why he was able to score 1.46 ppg at the age of 31, then outperform makarov in the playoffs at an older age, then score at a higher pace in 1994 once hes traded away from new jersey.

 

[Theokritos]

Out performed by Novy and Pouzar so take that ignorant garbage that "Stastny was underrated in europe" somewhere else.

Calm down. He said "maybe it means...", not "that's the way it is".

Maybe it means Stasny was being overlooked in his European Career. If you combine both of their performances in the 1978 world championships, 1979 world championships and 1980 Olympics. Their stats look like this.

Peter Stastny: 30 points in 24 games
Sergei Makarov: 28 points in 25 games

Its a fact, over the 3 tournaments from 1978-1980, Stastny outproduced him.

That includes the 1978 World Championship where Peter Šťastný (21 years of age) played on the Czechoslovak third line and Sergey Makarov (19 years of age) was mostly used as a spare on the Soviet team. That's the drawback when you play for a stacked team: it's tougher cracking up the lineup. If he was Russian, Peter Šťastný wouldn't have been higher on the Soviet depth charts than Makarov either, despite being two years older.

The numbers from that tournament:

Šťastný – 5 goals + 6 assists = 11 points (in 10 games)
Makarov – 3 goals + 2 assists = 5 points (in 10 games)

Without the 1978 numbers, Šťastný "statistical edge" over Makarov disappears.

Also, if we take a look beyond mere scoring numbers, then there is still this:

Makarov was in my opinion an above average defensive player at equal strenght as well with his combination of great forechecking and backchecking

I should have included that Makarov was an above average defensive player at even strenght during most of his prime years in my opinion. (...) And regarding Makarovs forechecking and backchecking ability during his prime we have this quote from

"Makarov was a very mobile player. He was everywhere, went up and down, and was really good at helping his defensmen." (Victor Kuzkin, Soviet defenseman)

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that Peter Šťastný didn't have similar qualities away from the puck.

 

[Hobnobs]

Calm down. He said "maybe it means...", not "that's the way it is".

Im perfectly calm. He wouldnt have wrote it if he knew what he was talking about. That was my point.

 

[Theokritos]

How does playing for a long time in north america help stastny?

Start here:

The struggles the Soviet players (in particular the seasoned veterans who had spent their entire careers playing a very different game) had with that transition are well documented:

Pat Quinn (Vancouver Canucks coach), January 1990:

"The first year always has been a tough year for all European players, Swedes or Finns or Czechs, and the Russians are no different. There's a sense of adjustment, both social and on the ice, that requires a good bit of time."

Vladimir Krutov (Vancouver Sun, December 1989):

"The hockey here is much different than what I expected. They say the NHL has changed to more of the Soviet style but I don't feel that is true."

John Cunniff (New Jersey Devils coach), January 1990:

"We saw they could play well against NHL players, but how they would play with NHL players we just didn't know."

Jay Greenberg (Sports Illustrated), January 1990:

"Most of the Soviets are finding problems in the style of play in the NHL. Europeans play a precise passing game, designed to keep players constantly circling in the offensive zone until one gets open in front of the net for a tap-in."

Terry Crisp (Calgary Flames coach), January 1990, on Makarov:

"He'll back-pass three times on a breakaway."

Ed Willes ("Gretzky to Lemieux"):

"The NHL and the Flames wasn't a seamless fit for Makarov. Makarov wanted to play the same puck-possession, speed-and-skill game that had made him a star in Russia, but the Flames, under Terry Crisp, played dump-and-chase. He told friends he was shocked at the Flames' lack of skill."

Jay Greenberg (Sports Illustrated):

"Makarov has shaken his head at his teammates when they make him reach a little ahead or behind for a pass. Still, Makarov has been among the league's scoring leaders all season, and his passes are often spectacular, which explains why grinding left wing Gary Roberts has become a goal scorer."

Gary Roberts (Calgary Globe and Mail, 2011):

"Sergei would always tell us what to do. He would go, 'why Robs why, dump puck in? You go get puck if you dump it in.' Then he'd say, 'Robs, Robs, puck on tape, Robs.' And I'd say: 'Sergei, you're going to get some pucks in your skates; that's just the way it is.' Or he'd go: 'Robs, why you yell for puck?' Just go to net, puck will be on stick."

Pat Quinn:

"Larionov is having an easier time because a center's responsibility is similar to what is expected of centers in European or Soviet hockey. A winger's job is quite a bit different -- in method of attack and defensive zone coverage."

Jay Greenberg:

"Calgary defensemen have learned that Makarov is rarely to be found in the standard North American outlet position along the boards."

Eric Duhatschek (Calgary Globe and Mail):

"According to [Cliff] Fletcher, [Terry] Crisp was furiously diagramming a play on the board, showing Makarov where he wanted him to be on the ice. Makarov took the chalk away from Crisp and crossed everything out and started diagramming his own plays, just as furiously."

Sports' Illustrated January 1990 prediction on how long it would take for the Soviet players to adapt:

Some of the Soviets may master the NHL game in two years, just in time for their marvelous skills to desert them.

 

[Hobnobs]

Start here:



Sports' Illustrated January 1990 prediction on how long it would take for the Soviet players to adapt:

This also extends to certain Czech players like Novy and Hlinka.

 

[canucks4ever]

Start here:



Sports' Illustrated January 1990 prediction on how long it would take for the Soviet players to adapt:

Why didn't Stastny have trouble adjusting to a different league. Shouldn't he have struggled in first season, rather than finishing 6th in scoring and then scoring 139 in only his second season in Canada?

Stastny was two years older and completely worn out and he still outperformed Makarov in the playoffs.

 

[Theokritos]

This also extends to ceratin Czech players like Novy and Hlinka.

No doubt. Those who came to the NHL in their late 20s or even older struggled. Those who came over at a younger age like Peter Šťastný (he had just turned 24) showed a much greater ability to adapt to the NHL game.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Why didn't Stastny have trouble adjusting to a different league. Shouldn't he have struggled in first season, rather than finishing 6th in scoring and then scoring 139 in only his second season in Canada?

Stastny was two years older and completely worn out and he still outperformed Makarov in the playoffs.

Stastny admits hitting a conditioning/mental fatigue wall about halfway thru his first season. He played thru.

 

[Batis]

No doubt. Those who came to the NHL in their late 20s or even older struggled. Those who came over at a younger age like Peter Šťastný (he had just turned 24) showed a much greater ability to adapt to the NHL game.

Which in my opinion should be very easy to understand considering that older players generally are more set in their ways. The swedish saying "Det är svårt att lära gamla hundar sitta" comes to mind which directly translates to "It is difficult to teach old dogs to sit". And if I am not mistaken there is a similar saying in english going something like "You can't teach an old dog new tricks"

And the being set in your ways part is of course only one part of the problem for older players as most of them already are declining which should make adjusting far more difficult as it is than for a player who is on his way up quality-wise.

 

[Theokritos]

Why didn't Stastny have trouble adjusting to a different league. Shouldn't he have struggled in first season, rather than finishing 6th in scoring and then scoring 139 in only his second season in Canada?

The next sentence in the SI article says:

Some of the Soviets may master the NHL game in two years, just in time for their marvelous skills to desert them. But by defecting at 20, Mogilny has time and perhaps the best set of legs in hockey on his side.

Legs are only one factor. Transition to an alien way of playing the game is the other, as the quotes from 1989-1990 make very evident. Usually a younger player is going to have an easier time adapting than e.g. an 31-year-old veteran who is set in his ways and has his own ideas and, in the case of Makarov, also the confidence to stand up to the coach.

Mogilny is just one example. Compare the NHL impact of young upper echelon players like Bure and Fyodorov with that of seasoned players like Makarov and Larionov. Or the NA impact of Peter Šťastný (24 when he came over) with that of Václav Nedomanský (30 when he came over). The pattern is obvious.

Which in my opinion should be very easy to understand considering that older players generally are more set in their ways. The swedish saying "Det är svårt att lära gamla hundar sitta" comes to mind which directly translates to "It is difficult to teach old dogs to sit". And if I am not mistaken there is a similar saying in english going something like "You can't teach an old dog new tricks"

There's a similar saying in German. I guess every language has one of those.

 

[Canadiens1958]

The next sentence in the SI article says:



Legs are only one factor. Transition to an alien way of playing the game is the other, as the quotes from 1989-1990 make very evident. Usually a younger player is going to have an easier time adapting than e.g. an 31-year-old veteran who is set in his ways and has his own ideas and, in the case of Makarov, also the confidence to stand up to the coach.

Mogilny is only one example. Compare the NHL impact of young upper echelon players like Bure and Fyodorov with that of seasoned players like Makarov and Larionov. Or the NA impact of Peter Šťastný (24 when he came over) with that of Václav Nedomanský (30 when he came over). The pattern is obvious.



There's a similar saying in German. I guess every language has one of those.

Yet in 1965, facing the Soviets for the first time, a 36 year old Jacques Plante adapted after about five minutes or one rotation thru the game roster.

Experience has advantages.

 

[Hobnobs]

Yet in 1965, facing the Soviets for the first time, a 36 year old Jacques Plante adapted after about five minutes or one rotation thru the game roster.

Experience has advantages.

He didnt have to adapt to how his own team was playing now did he? Also its a bit different for a goalie.

 

[Theokritos]

Yet in 1965, facing the Soviets for the first time, a 36 year old Jacques Plante adapted after about five minutes or one rotation thru the game roster.

Experience has advantages.

Certainly. But you're talking about adapting to an opponent here. Adapting to your teammates is another thing. As the NJ Devils coach said in 1990: We saw the Soviets could play well against NHL players, but how well they would play with NHL players is another question.

Not that experience in itself necessarily makes adapting to your teammates more difficult. But when the basic approach to the game is as different as it was e.g. between the CSKA Moscow approach and the Calgary Flames approach anno 1989, you'd need an extraordinary level of experience to bridge that gap. As late as the mid-1990s Scotty Bowman with his great hockey mind and his plethora of experience reacted to the game of the "Russian Five" by saying: I have no idea what you're doing out there or how you are doing it. But just keep doing it. Likewise in 1989, the Calgary Flames had no idea what Makarov was doing and neither did Makarov have an idea what the Calgary Flames were doing. Both followed approaches that had proven to work, but it doesn't work when you try to do both at the same time, and it's easier to get a younger player to give up one approach he has learned than to get an older, established player to give up the approach he has been living and breathing his entire career.

 

[Hobnobs]

Certainly. But you're talking about adapting to an opponent here. Adapting to your teammates is another thing. As the NJ Devils coach said in 1990: We saw the Soviets could play well against NHL players, but how well they would play with NHL players is another question.

Not that experience in itself necessarily makes adapting to your teammates more difficult. But when the basic approach to the game is as different as it was e.g. between the CSKA Moscow approach and the Calgary Flames approach anno 1989, you'd need an extraordinary level of experience to bridge that gap. As late as the mid-1990s Scotty Bowman with his great hockey mind and a plethora of experience reacted to the game of the "Russian Five" by saying: I have no idea what you're doing out there or how you are doing it. But just keep doing it. Likewise in 1989, the Calgary Flames had no idea what Makarov was doing and neither did Makarov have an idea of what the Calgary Flames were doing. Both their approaches have proven to work, but not when you try to do both at the same time and it's easier to get a younger player to give up one approach he has learned than to get an older, established player to give up the approach he has been living and breathing his entire career.

Now add culture shift, language barrier and even how practive regimes were handled to that as well.

 

[Eisen]

Did the 31-year old Stastny have to adjust to a completely new lifestyle and way of playing hockey at that age? No he did not since he had gotten the chance to do that at age 24 when he was young enough to make that transition more easily. It is far easier to adjust to a new league and a new culture when you are young and still improving as a player than when you are older and already on a steady decline.

Considering that when Makarov and Stastny played on the same continent as each other Makarov was a better player than Stastny both before and after the 80/81-88/89 time frame I don't see why it is so hard to believe that he would have been superior during that time frame as well.

Makarov had already achieved more success in the European game at age 21 than Stastny had at age 23 after his last season in Europe (79/80). Here is a comparison of their voting records up until that point for example.

Domestic player of the year voting (Soviet player of the year for Makarov and Czechoslovak golden stick for Stastny)

Makarov: 1, 4*, 9
Stastny: 1, 6, 12, 12, 15

* Since the SPOTY poll was not conducted in 78/79 due to Mikhailov winning the Izvestia golden stick voting I used Makarovs result in that voting instead since the entire top 6 were Soviets.

Izvestia golden stick voting (Best player in Europe)

Makarov: 1, 4
Stastny: 8

Other main achievements

Makarov: 1x Soviet league scoring champion 2x First team Soviet All-Star, 1x Directorate Best Forward Award at WHC, 1x First Team All-Star at WHC, 1x Leading goal-scorer at WHC
Stastny: Would most likely have been selected to the Czechoslovak All-Star team had it been selected in 79/80.

So even if Stastny had the age advantage Makarov managed to achieve far more in the European game before Stastnys move in 80/81. Then from 89/90 this is how Makarov and Stastny compares when playing in the same league. This time it is Makarov who has the age advantage but on the other hand he also has to adjust to a new culture at an advanced age for doing that.

89/90-94/95

Makarov (age 31-36) 420 gp, 134 g, 250 a, 384 pts, 0.914 PPG
Stastny (age 33-38) 302 gp, 94 g, 159 a, 253 pts, 0.838 PPG

Their PPG:s are relatively close but Makarov sustained it over a far larger sample of games. So since Makarov was the stronger player both before and after the 80/81-88/89 time frame why is it so difficult to believe that he would have been superior during that time frame as well?

We also shouldn't forget that Soviet players were ridden like rented mules in the Soviet system.

 

[canucks4ever]

Stastny admits hitting a conditioning/mental fatigue wall about halfway thru his first season. He played thru.

The next sentence in the SI article says:



Legs are only one factor. Transition to an alien way of playing the game is the other, as the quotes from 1989-1990 make very evident. Usually a younger player is going to have an easier time adapting than e.g. an 31-year-old veteran who is set in his ways and has his own ideas and, in the case of Makarov, also the confidence to stand up to the coach.

Mogilny is just one example. Compare the NHL impact of young upper echelon players like Bure and Fyodorov with that of seasoned players like Makarov and Larionov. Or the NA impact of Peter Šťastný (24 when he came over) with that of Václav Nedomanský (30 when he came over). The pattern is obvious.



There's a similar saying in German. I guess every language has one of those.

Coming over at age 20 and 24 is not the exact same thing. Still doesn't explain why Stastny was able to perform at an elite level asap. No there is no pattern. Stastny came over and scored as soon as he came here. You want to use Mogilny as an example to prove your point? He didn't have anywhere near the nhl career that Stastny did.

So if Makarov came over at age 24, by age 31 he would have averaged 1.46 ppg. Haha, I doubt it. Maybe just maybe, Stastny is indeed the better player between the two.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Certainly.

As the NJ Devils coach said in 1990: We saw the Soviets could play well against NHL players, but how well they would play with NHL players is another question.

Not that experience in itself necessarily makes adapting to your teammates more difficult. But when the basic approach to the game is as different as it was e.g. between the CSKA Moscow approach and the Calgary Flames approach anno 1989, you'd need an extraordinary level of experience to bridge that gap. As late as the mid-1990s Scotty Bowman with his great hockey mind and his plethora of experience reacted to the game of the "Russian Five" by saying: I have no idea what you're doing out there or how you are doing it. But just keep doing it. Likewise in 1989, the Calgary Flames had no idea what Makarov was doing and neither did Makarov have an idea what the Calgary Flames were doing. Both followed approaches that had proven to work, but it doesn't work when you try to do both at the same time, and it's easier to get a younger player to give up one approach he has learned than to get an older, established player to give up the approach he has been living and breathing his entire career.

Plante had never played with his one night Junior Canadiens teammates or a team coached by Scotty Bowman. Yet in a very short time he adapted to them as well, appreciating their strengths and weaknesses, guiding them on the ice.

Scotty Bowman never said anything that could be used against him or revealed that he was in control.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Coming over at age 20 and 24 is not the exact same thing. Still doesn't explain why Stastny was able to perform at an elite level asap. No there is no pattern. Stastny came over and scored as soon as he came here. You want to use Mogilny as an example to prove your point? He didn't have anywhere near the nhl career that Stastny did.

So if Makarov came over at age 24, by age 31 he would have averaged 1.46 ppg. Haha, I doubt it. Maybe just maybe, Stastny is indeed the better player between the two.

The three Stastny brothers defected, Anton and Peter coming over in time for the 1980-81 season, while Marian joined them the following season. Having his brothers was a big plus. The city rallied around its adopted hockey heroes. Also failure was not an option.

 

[Killion]

He didnt have to adapt to how his own team was playing now did he? Also its a bit different for a goalie.

He would have had to have, yes, and quickly flexed his muscles. Demanded obedience from his youthful charges on Defence, backchecking Forwards. Plante a great communicator. Quiet things down. The guy was a nano-fast quick study artist of players, patterns. Coming & going. Mind like a steel trap. Totally focused. He didnt even need to speak half the time, just fix you with his blue eyes, 1000 yard stare & you knew youd messed up or had fallen short... know all about it... had the guy as a Coach briefly.... one look from that guy communicated volumes. Pay attention.... My God. Your holding Baby Jesus in your hands kid & this is how you behave, react?. Lose your ####?.... of course Jacques not one for swearing. Didnt have to. But I did, do. Weakness I suppose.... Carry on...

 

[canucks4ever]

The three Stastny brothers defected, Anton and Peter coming over in time for the 1980-81 season, while Marian joined them the following season. Having his brothers was a big plus. The city rallied around its adopted hockey heroes. Also failure was not an option.

Yeah failure wasn't an option, he risked dying by fleeing czechoslovakia in the trunk of a car.

 

[Hobnobs]

He would have had to have, yes, and quickly flexed his muscles. Demanded obedience from his youthful charges on Defence, backchecking Forwards. Plante a great communicator. Quiet things down. The guy was a nano-fast quick study artist of players, patterns. Coming & going. Mind like a steel trap. Totally focused. He didnt even need to speak half the time, just fix you with his blue eyes, 1000 yard stare & you knew youd messed up or had fallen short... know all about it... had the guy as a Coach briefly.... one look from that guy communicated volumes. Pay attention.... My God. Your holding Baby Jesus in your hands kid & this is how you behave, react?. Lose your ####?.... of course Jacques not one for swearing. Didnt have to. But I did, do. Weakness I suppose.

Im not saying Plante wasnt great, its just not the same situation as moving to another country and learn a new system after being ridden like a mule in the USSR.

 

[Killion]

Im not saying Plante wasnt great, its just not the same situation as moving to another country and learn a new system after being ridden like a mule in the USSR.

The major problem was just the physicality of the North American, Pro Game with the early arrivals. It wasnt that they werent "tough enough", no fight or whatever, but that'll take its toll. Wears you down Big Time. I mean Hell, I was a goalie & every rung up the ladder... bigger, faster, smarter players, many deliberately crashing, attempting to blind both literally & figuratively, had to keep the shooting lanes open, keep the slot & crease clear, like moving concrete blocks. And you did not spare the rod (stick). You had to make that room all the while talking to & often times yelling at your teammates who were out there figure skating. Out. To. Lunch. Intimidation a huge factor. You had to be damn nasty sometimes. The European Game quite a bit different. Not saying "it was less" just saying "different".