Are two Czechs better than any Soviet player ever?

[BigBadBruins7708]

So at 35-101-3, Archie Manning must've been a horrific QB correct?

ummm, he was.

125 TD to 173 INT (plus another 73 fumbles)
averaged 158 ypg for his career
career 55% completion%

16 game average of 2,528 yards, 13 TD, 18 INT

Yes to Hasek without a thought. Jagr is an interesting debate

 

[Hobnobs]

A 31 year old Stastny lit the nhl on fire, averaging 1.46 ppg. When he was 33, he still averaged around 1.2 ppg. Marcel Dionne was an excellent point producer until he was 35-36 years old. These are simply excuses.

I think you are confusing excuses with reasons. Yes, Stastny lit up the NHL @ 31 after playing in the NHL for several years. It wasnt his first season. By 32 he wasnt litting up the NHL anymore. Some players "cutoff" is at 30 and some at 35. Thats not excuses, thats just life. That swhy we usually discuss career primes and not career twillights.

We can easily turn it around. Bossy was done at 30, Trottier @ 31, Savard @ 29-30, LaFleur @ 28 and so on.

 

[canucks4ever]

I think you are confusing excuses with reasons. Yes, Stastny lit up the NHL @ 31 after playing in the NHL for several years. It wasnt his first season. By 32 he wasnt litting up the NHL anymore. Some players "cutoff" is at 30 and some at 35. Thats not excuses, thats just life. That swhy we usually discuss career primes and not career twillights.

We can easily turn it around. Bossy was done at 30, Trottier @ 31, Savard @ 29-30, LaFleur @ 28 and so on.

So if Makarov came to the nhl earlier, his 1990 season would have been 116 points instead of 86? I dont buy it. Maybe he scores 10 more points, but not 30.

Dionne and Stastny never hit 140 points in the nhl, but Makarov is scoring 150+ consistently if he comes here in the 80's? No this isnt reasoning, its just hyperbole. The fact is Hasek and Jagr peaked higher than any russian, nationalism is the reason people here are going to exaggerate the peaks of Fetisov and Makarov. I like Makarov, but to suggest he would have had a career like Jagr's in the nhl is a tall order. I doubt any of you guys believe the BS that you are spouting.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Makarov's NHL career is a hell of a lot better than anything Bossy did at the same age...

 

[Hobnobs]

So if Makarov came to the nhl earlier, his 1990 season would have been 116 points instead of 86? I dont buy it. Maybe he scores 10 more points, but not 30.

Dionne and Stastny never hit 140 points in the nhl, but Makarov is scoring 150+ consistently if he comes here in the 80's? No this isnt reasoning, its just hyperbole. The fact is Hasek and Jagr peaked higher than any russian, nationalism is the reason people here are going to exaggerate the peaks of Fetisov and Makarov. I like Makarov, but to suggest he would have had a career like Jagr's in the nhl is a tall order. I doubt any of you guys believe the BS that you are spouting.

So youre saying now that Bossy never had a 147 points season?

Also nationalism? Im not russian... Not even slavic.

 

[canucks4ever]

Mike Bossy in the 1981 and 1984 Canada Cups: 20 points in 15 games
Sergei Makarov in the 1981 and 1984 Canada Cups: 16 points in 13 games.

 

[canucks4ever]

So youre saying now that Bossy never had a 147 points season?

Also nationalism? Im not russian... Not even slavic.

He hit over 140 once, not every year.

 

[Sentinel]

We really don't care if you are "buying" this or not. To anyone who watched Makarov in the 80s and saw his stats (who else lead their league in points NINE FRIGGING TIMES? Gretzky, that's who), it's crystal clear he was a superstar. I rank him squarely on Jagr's level. Btw, I think both Jagr and Makarov were better than Richard during the RS. Richard does make up a lot of ground in playoffs though.

 

[canucks4ever]

We really don't care if you are "buying" this or not. To anyone who watched Makarov in the 80s and saw his stats (who else lead their league in points NINE FRIGGING TIMES? Gretzky, that's who), it's crystal clear he was a superstar. I rank him squarely on Jagr's level. Btw, I think both Jagr and Makarov were better than Richard during the RS. Richard does make up a lot of ground in playoffs though.

So basically your talking on emotion rather than bringing up valid points. He lead a league in scoring where all the top players were on his own team. OMG!

Stastny at age 31 was much better than him.

Who is "we", speak for yourself pal. Makarov will never get ranked above Jagr on this board.

 

[Batis]

A 31 year old Stastny lit the nhl on fire, averaging 1.46 ppg. When he was 33, he still averaged around 1.2 ppg. Marcel Dionne was an excellent point producer until he was 35-36 years old. These are simply excuses.

Did the 31-year old Stastny have to adjust to a completely new lifestyle and way of playing hockey at that age? No he did not since he had gotten the chance to do that at age 24 when he was young enough to make that transition more easily. It is far easier to adjust to a new league and a new culture when you are young and still improving as a player than when you are older and already on a steady decline.

Considering that when Makarov and Stastny played on the same continent as each other Makarov was a better player than Stastny both before and after the 80/81-88/89 time frame I don't see why it is so hard to believe that he would have been superior during that time frame as well.

Makarov had already achieved more success in the European game at age 21 than Stastny had at age 23 after his last season in Europe (79/80). Here is a comparison of their voting records up until that point for example.

Domestic player of the year voting (Soviet player of the year for Makarov and Czechoslovak golden stick for Stastny)

Makarov: 1, 4*, 9
Stastny: 1, 6, 12, 12, 15

* Since the SPOTY poll was not conducted in 78/79 due to Mikhailov winning the Izvestia golden stick voting I used Makarovs result in that voting instead since the entire top 6 were Soviets.

Izvestia golden stick voting (Best player in Europe)

Makarov: 1, 4
Stastny: 8

Other main achievements

Makarov: 1x Soviet league scoring champion 2x First team Soviet All-Star, 1x Directorate Best Forward Award at WHC, 1x First Team All-Star at WHC, 1x Leading goal-scorer at WHC
Stastny: Would most likely have been selected to the Czechoslovak All-Star team had it been selected in 79/80.

So even if Stastny had the age advantage Makarov managed to achieve far more in the European game before Stastnys move in 80/81. Then from 89/90 this is how Makarov and Stastny compares when playing in the same league. This time it is Makarov who has the age advantage but on the other hand he also has to adjust to a new culture at an advanced age for doing that.

89/90-94/95

Makarov (age 31-36) 420 gp, 134 g, 250 a, 384 pts, 0.914 PPG
Stastny (age 33-38) 302 gp, 94 g, 159 a, 253 pts, 0.838 PPG

Their PPG:s are relatively close but Makarov sustained it over a far larger sample of games. So since Makarov was the stronger player both before and after the 80/81-88/89 time frame why is it so difficult to believe that he would have been superior during that time frame as well?

 

[canucks4ever]

Did the 31-year old Stastny have to adjust to a completely new lifestyle and way of playing hockey at that age? No he did not since he had gotten the chance to do that at age 24 when he was young enough to make that transition more easily. It is far easier to adjust to a new league and a new culture when you are young and still improving as a player than when you are older and already on a steady decline.

Considering that when Makarov and Stastny played on the same continent as each other Makarov was a better player than Stastny both before and after the 80/81-88/89 time frame I don't see why it is so hard to believe that he would have been superior during that time frame as well.

Makarov had already achieved more success in the European game at age 21 than Stastny had at age 23 after his last season in Europe (79/80). Here is a comparison of their voting records up until that point for example.

Domestic player of the year voting (Soviet player of the year for Makarov and Czechoslovak golden stick for Stastny)

Makarov: 1, 4*, 9
Stastny: 1, 6, 12, 12, 15

* Since the SPOTY poll was not conducted in 78/79 due to Mikhailov winning the Izvestia golden stick voting I used Makarovs result in that voting instead since the entire top 6 were Soviets.

Izvestia golden stick voting (Best player in Europe)

Makarov: 1, 4
Stastny: 8

Other main achievements

Makarov: 1x Soviet league scoring champion 2x First team Soviet All-Star, 1x Directorate Best Forward Award at WHC, 1x First Team All-Star at WHC, 1x Leading goal-scorer at WHC
Stastny: Would most likely have been selected to the Czechoslovak All-Star team had it been selected in 79/80.

So even if Stastny had the age advantage Makarov managed to achieve far more in the European game before Stastnys move in 80/81. Then from 89/90 this is how Makarov and Stastny compares when playing in the same league. This time it is Makarov who has the age advantage but on the other hand he also has to adjust to a new culture at an advanced age for doing that.

89/90-94/95

Makarov (age 31-36) 420 gp, 134 g, 250 a, 384 pts, 0.914 PPG
Stastny (age 33-38) 302 gp, 94 g, 159 a, 253 pts, 0.838 PPG

Their PPG:s are relatively close but Makarov sustained it over a far larger sample of games. So since Makarov was the stronger player both before and after the 80/81-88/89 time frame why is it so difficult to believe that he would have been superior during that time frame as well?

Makarov was also two years older. Compare them at the same age and Stastny wins.

Do you really believe that if Makarov came here earlier, his 1990 season would have been an extra 30 points? Also leave out the fact that Stastny got traded to a team that made him play trap hockey. As soon as he gets traded to st. louis, hes back to a point per game.

 

[Batis]

Mike Bossy in the 1981 and 1984 Canada Cups: 20 points in 15 games
Sergei Makarov in the 1981 and 1984 Canada Cups: 16 points in 13 games.

Sergei Makarov in all Canada Cup competition: 31 points in 22 games. 1.410 PPG

Mike Bossy in all Canada Cup competition 20 points in 15 games. 1.333 PPG

Of course Makarovs stats look weaker if you ignore his strongest tournament. Do the same with Bossy and he has 9 points in 8 games in Canada Cup competition.

 

[Batis]

Makarov was also two years older. Compare them at the same age and Stastny wins.

Do you really believe that if Makarov came here earlier, his 1990 season would have been an extra 30 points? Also leave out the fact that Stastny got traded to a team that made him play trap hockey. As soon as he gets traded to st. louis, hes back to a point per game.

And compare them both up until the age of 23 in Europe and Makarov completely crushes Stastny. The comparison I made earlier was Makarov up until the age of 21 compared to Stastny up until the age of 23.

I am not arguing that Makarov was a superior player to Stastny from the age of 31 and forward. I am arguing that Makarov was a superior player during every single part of their overlapping careers. Makarov was superior before 80/81 and Makarov was superior after 88/89. And in my opinion Makarov was superior in the 80/81-88/89 time frame.

 

[canucks4ever]

Canada Cups and Super Series

Vladimir Krutov: 51 points in 39 games
Sergei Makarov: 50 points in 40 games

 

[canucks4ever]

Sergei Makarov in all Canada Cup competition: 31 points in 22 games. 1.410 PPG

Mike Bossy in all Canada Cup competition 20 points in 15 games. 1.333 PPG

Of course Makarovs stats look weaker if you ignore his strongest tournament. Do the same with Bossy and he has 9 points in 8 games in Canada Cup competition.

The 2 tournaments where they played against each other, bossy outscored him. This is supposed to be Makarov's prime is it not?

Makarov had 2 full seasons to adjust, so why was he still a point per game player in his 3rd year. Stastny did much better in his 33 year old season.

Makarov was also playing on a powerhouse team in his euro career, Stastny was playing on Slovan Bratislava

 

[Batis]

The 2 tournaments where they played against each other, bossy outscored him. This is supposed to be Makarov's prime is it not?

Makarov had 2 full seasons to adjust, so why was he still a point per game player in his 3rd year. Stastny did much better in his 33 year old season.

Makarov was also playing on a powerhouse team in his euro career, Stastny was playing on Slovan Bratislava

Actually if we look at true head to head Makarov outscores Bossy.

Challenge Cup 1979: Bossy 4 points in 3 games, Makarov 3 points in 3 games
Super Series game between CSKA and New York Islanders 79/80: Makarov 2 points, Bossy 1 point
Canada Cup games between Canada and USSR in 1981 and 1984: Makarov 6 points in 4 games, Bossy 4 points in 4 games.

Total head to head: Makarov 11 points in 8 games, Bossy 9 points in 8 games.

Regarding Makarov and Stastny what does their team have to do with their voting records? Makarov had to compete with all of his teammates in those votes as well. And Makarov had a stronger voting record against stronger competition despite being two years younger.

 

[canucks4ever]

Actually if we look at true head to head Makarov outscores Bossy.

Challenge Cup 1979: Bossy 4 points in 3 games, Makarov 3 points in 3 games
Super Series game between CSKA and New York Islanders 79/80: Makarov 2 points, Bossy 1 point
Canada Cup games between Canada and USSR in 1981 and 1984: Makarov 6 points in 4 games, Bossy 4 points in 4 games.

Total head to head: Makarov 11 points in 8 games, Bossy 9 points in 8 games.

Regarding Makarov and Stastny what does their team have to do with their voting records? Makarov had to compete with all of his teammates in those votes as well. And Makarov had a far stronger voting record against stronger competition.

When you play on a stacked team and beat up on weaker opposition, it pads your totals.

You can post thier head to head stats all you want, bossy played in the same tournaments and outscored him.

If Stastny came over to the nhl much earlier, shouldn't he have been burnt out by the time he was 31? No instead he averaged 1.46 points per game when he was 31. A number that completely blew Makarov out of the water.

Also thier playoff records from 1990 and onwards. He's also 2 years older and playing on a defensive teams.

Makarov: 23 points in 34 games.
Stastny: 24 points in 29 games.

 

[Batis]

When you play on a stacked team and beat up on weaker opposition, it pads your totals.

You can post thier head to head stats all you want, bossy played in the same tournaments and outscored him.

If Stastny came over to the nhl much earlier, shouldn't he have been burnt out by the time he was 31? No instead he averaged 1.46 points per game when he was 31. A number that completely blew Makarov out of the water.

Also thier playoff records from 1990 and onwards. He's also 2 years older and playing on a defensive teams.

Makarov: 23 points in 34 games.
Stastny: 24 points in 29 games.

Makarov still had to compete with all of his teammates for those awards. So that is irrelevant in my opinion.

Regarding those two tournaments Bossy was the All-Star RW in 81 and Makarov the All-Star RW in 1984 so it is very close between Bossy and Makarov in those two tournaments all things considered. And then Makarov has his 1987 performance which clearly puts him ahead of Bossy in Canada Cup competition.

So their playoff performances (Stastny vs Makarov) makes it abit closer during the 89/90-94/95 time frame. Makarov is still ahead during that time frame in my opinion just as he was during their entire career overlap.

Anyway good discussion. I am off to bed now since I have to wake up in 7 hours to go to work.

 

[canucks4ever]

Yes its been a good discussion, another thing that I found interesting.

1980 Olympics:
Makarov: 11 points in 7 games
Stastny: 14 points in 6 games

 

[Hobnobs]

Yes its been a good discussion, another thing that I found interesting.

1980 Olympics:
Makarov: 11 points in 7 games
Stastny: 14 points in 6 games

Look what I found

1984 Canada Cup:
Sergei Makarov: 7 points in 6 games
Mark Messier: 6 points in 8 games
Bryan Trottier: 5 points in 6 games

Makarov will now have bested Messier in his best NHL season according to your logic. So thats atleast 130 points for Makarov in the 80s. You lose.

 

[gary69]

Look at player like Kurri. If he would have come over in 89/90 and people from Europe claimed he would have been a regular 50-goal scorer during his peak and a great defensive forward in the right circumstances, North Americans wouldn't believe it. And Kurri and all Finns easily admit that Makarov was a much better player than Kurri.

Ditto for Stastny and Czechs/Slovaks.

 

[Big Phil]

I would put Jagr and Hasek as the best non-Canadians of all-time. Some might think Ovechkin can get in the mix someday (I don't know about that) or that Lidstrom has a case as well, but give me the Czechs at 1-2 and then start with the rest. Those two are first though.

 

[Passchendaele]

Strikes against Makarov:

- In pretty much every international competition he was involved in, he played with the same players he played all-year round, which is an important factor -- having chemistry and familiarity with your linemates.
- Being a product from the U.S.S.R. system, he was probably in better shape than most NHLers when he came over, which would give him an advantage over his peers already.

 

[Batis]

Regarding the chemistry and familiarity with linemates Makarov showed during the international season of 78/79 (Challenge Cup and WHC) that he could be dominant with linemates that he did not play with all year as well. There he played with the Golikov brothers from Dynamo Moscow.

And I really don't think that having spent more than a decade under Tikhonovs training regime was much of an advantage when Makarov was in his 30's. I would rather say that it was a disadvantage at that point of his career.

 

[Thenameless]

Yes, I'll go with Jagr and Hasek as better than any Soviet player. Honourable mention to Tretiak for giving my Habs a really hard time though.