Are athletes really getting faster, better, stronger?

[puckpilot]

Came across this TED talk that present some interesting things comparing current athletes with those of the past. They don't address hockey but the info the present is applicable to hockey.

Click to read more...

 

[Big Phil]

The best example to take is Jesse Owens. He once held the world record for 100M track at 10.3 seconds. Usain Bolt now holds that at 9.58. So in almost a century we've come 0.7 seconds. That's it. But hold on, Owens had a different track, different shoes, etc. Andre De Grasse, Canada's best hope and quite possibly the best bet to take Bolt's place did a run that had Owens' shoes and track and did 11 seconds.

What I am trying to say is, sometimes we underrate the disadvantages of athletes back then. Which means are we THAT much faster than yesteryear?

 

[MadLuke]

Not sure if it is best example the 100m but yes how little faster than Owens people got is a good example (at least for the elite specimen).

Maybe some other sport would benefit more with better training (more pro athlete that do only that), nutrition, etc... than something so pure explosion/genetic than what the 100m seem to be.

Runner used to that track/shoes were doing 11.x times in the heat:
Athletics at the 1936 Summer Olympics – Men's 100 metres - Wikipedia

Marathon for an other example:
Marathon world record progression - Wikipedia

Went from 3hours in 1908 to 2:25 in the 40s to almost just 2 hours.

Maybe it is a other sport that shoes has a great impact also too.

There is still many athletics record that are holding from the 60's to early 90s:
List of Olympic records in athletics - Wikipedia
List of world records in athletics - Wikipedia

Different anti-doping system and sport popularity changing I imagine but still.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Even if humans were regressing athletically, I would expect that someone would beat Jesse Owens' 100m record in the 70 years since because it just takes one guy to run in a straight line once to do so.

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

The best example to take is Jesse Owens. He once held the world record for 100M track at 10.3 seconds. Usain Bolt now holds that at 9.58. So in almost a century we've come 0.7 seconds. That's it. But hold on, Owens had a different track, different shoes, etc. Andre De Grasse, Canada's best hope and quite possibly the best bet to take Bolt's place did a run that had Owens' shoes and track and did 11 seconds.

What I am trying to say is, sometimes we underrate the disadvantages of athletes back then. Which means are we THAT much faster than yesteryear?

For those who are interested, here's a link to De Grasse running 100 m in Owens' shoes.

On average, players have been getting bigger and stronger, but it doesn't necessarily correlate with performance. A total of 33 wins of the 67 listed here are under average. If we include Kane and McDavid (who are surely also smaller than average), then it becomes 35 of the 69 Art Ross winners. Looking at Art Ross winners, with the height and weight data from here, and the player data mostly from Hockey-Reference.com (with Gretzky's weights from Hockey Canada's rosters for the various Canada and World Cups):

Season	Height Avg.	Height Stdev.	Weight Avg.	Weight Stdev.	Art Ross	Height	Weight	Height Dev.	Weight Dev
1947-48	70.4	1.78	173.8	13.04	Lach	70	165	-0.2	-0.7
1948-49	70.5	1.91	174.3	13.48	Conacher	74	175	1.8	0.1
1949-50	70.6	1.92	174	14.39	Lindsay	68	163	-1.4	-0.8
1950-51	70.8	2.02	175.5	14.88	Howe	72	205	0.6	2.0
1951-52	70.7	2.09	175.2	14.23	Howe	72	205	0.6	2.1
1952-53	70.9	2.02	175.6	14.3	Howe	72	205	0.5	2.1
1953-54	70.9	2.1	175.4	14.83	Howe	72	205	0.5	2.0
1954-55	71	1.98	175.4	15.22	Geoffrion	69	166	-1.0	-0.6
1955-56	71.1	1.95	177	14.57	Beliveau	75	205	2.0	1.9
1956-57	71.1	1.98	177.8	15.34	Howe	72	205	0.5	1.8
1957-58	71	1.8	177.1	14.19	Moore	70	168	-0.6	-0.6
1958-59	71	1.82	178.5	14.25	Moore	70	168	-0.5	-0.7
1959-60	71	1.88	178.6	13.48	Hull	70	195	-0.5	1.2
1960-61	70.9	1.65	178.3	12.51	Geoffrion	69	166	-1.2	-1.0
1961-62	71.1	1.69	180.3	12.89	Hull	70	195	-0.7	1.1
1962-63	71	1.66	181.2	13.21	Howe	72	205	0.6	1.8
1963-64	71.1	1.78	181.5	12.7	Mikita	69	169	-1.2	-1.0
1964-65	71.2	1.84	182.2	13.35	Mikita	69	169	-1.2	-1.0
1965-66	71.2	1.88	183.2	12.59	Hull	70	195	-0.6	0.9
1966-67	71.3	1.93	184	12.7	Mikita	69	169	-1.2	-1.2
1967-68	71.2	1.86	183.2	12.85	Mikita	69	169	-1.2	-1.1
1968-69	71.1	1.81	182.7	12.97	Esposito	73	205	1.0	1.7
1969-70	71.2	1.91	183.6	13.09	Orr	72	197	0.4	1.0
1970-71	71.3	1.81	184.2	12.6	Esposito	73	205	0.9	1.7
1971-72	71.3	1.82	184.5	12.43	Esposito	73	205	0.9	1.6
1972-73	71.6	1.73	186.7	11.62	Esposito	73	205	0.8	1.6
1973-74	71.7	1.82	187.1	12.49	Esposito	73	205	0.7	1.4
1974-75	71.8	1.85	187.8	12.01	Orr	72	197	0.1	0.8
1975-76	71.9	1.83	188.6	11.88	Lafleur	72	185	0.1	-0.3
1976-77	72	1.88	189	11.97	Lafleur	72	185	0.0	-0.3
1977-78	71.9	1.88	189.1	11.99	Lafleur	72	185	0.1	-0.3
1978-79	72	1.99	190.1	12.25	Trottier	71	195	-0.5	0.4
1979-80	72	1.97	190.4	12.56	Dionne	69	190	-1.5	0.0
1980-81	72.1	1.97	190.9	12.32	Gretzky	72	170	-0.1	-1.7
1981-82	72.1	1.96	191.6	12.93	Gretzky	72	170	-0.1	-1.7
1982-83	72.1	1.98	192.2	12.6	Gretzky	72	170	-0.1	-1.8
1983-84	72.1	1.95	192.6	12.99	Gretzky	72	170	-0.1	-1.7
1984-85	72.2	1.97	193.3	13.44	Gretzky	72	170	-0.1	-1.7
1985-86	72.3	1.94	194.7	13.33	Gretzky	72	170	-0.2	-1.9
1986-87	72.4	1.94	195.7	13.41	Gretzky	72	170	-0.2	-1.9
1987-88	72.5	1.93	196.4	13.35	Lemieux	76	230	1.8	2.5
1988-89	72.6	1.89	197.7	13.21	Lemieux	76	230	1.8	2.4
1989-90	72.7	1.9	198.4	13.44	Gretzky	72	175	-0.4	-1.7
1990-91	72.7	1.91	199	13.59	Gretzky	72	175	-0.4	-1.8
1991-92	72.7	1.94	199.6	13.81	Lemieux	76	230	1.7	2.2
1992-93	72.7	1.92	199.3	13.93	Lemieux	76	230	1.7	2.2
1993-94	72.8	1.91	200.5	14.43	Gretzky	72	180	-0.4	-1.4
1994-95	72.8	1.98	201.5	14.66	Jagr	75	230	1.1	1.9
1995-96	72.9	1.95	202.1	14.5	Lemieux	76	230	1.6	1.9
1996-97	73.1	1.95	203.6	14.82	Lemieux	76	230	1.5	1.8
1997-98	73.2	1.96	204.9	14.85	Jagr	75	230	0.9	1.7
1998-99	73.1	2.02	204.5	15.04	Jagr	75	230	0.9	1.7
1999-00	73.1	1.97	204.5	14.85	Jagr	75	230	1.0	1.7
2000-01	73.2	2.05	204.9	15.09	Jagr	75	230	0.9	1.7
2001-02	73.1	2.07	205.3	15.06	Iginla	73	210	0.0	0.3
2002-03	73.2	2.1	205.9	14.82	Forsberg	72	205	-0.6	-0.1
2003-04	73.3	2.06	206.3	15.12	St. Louis	68	180	-2.6	-1.7
2005-06	73.2	2.04	206.3	15.18	Thornton	76	220	1.4	0.9
2006-07	73.2	2.03	205.6	15.27	Crosby	71	200	-1.1	-0.4
2007-08	73.1	2.09	205.4	15.46	Ovechkin	74	220	0.4	0.9
2008-09	73.2	2.09	205.2	15.69	Malkin	75	195	0.9	-0.7
2009-10	73.2	2.1	204.9	15.84	H. Sedin	74	183	0.4	-1.4
2010-11	73.2	2.12	204.5	15.5	D. Sedin	73	190	-0.1	-0.9
2011-12	73.2	2.1	203.8	15.97	Malkin	75	195	0.9	-0.6
2012-13	73.2	2.17	203.6	15.87	St. Louis	68	180	-2.4	-1.5
2013-14	73.1	2.13	201.9	15.71	Crosby	71	200	-1.0	-0.1
2014-15	73.1	2.11	201.2	15.17	Benn	74	209	0.4	0.5

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Given that average heights have increased by 2.7 inches while average weights have increased by ~30 pounds, I'm going to assume that it's an indication of an increase in muscle mass on average.

The most interesting thing to me, however, is the fact that only three players after Iginla's win have been heavier (i.e. stronger) than league average: Thornton, Ovechkin, and Benn. The other winners were Forsberg (though he could be fairly said to be average), St. Louis, Crosby, Malkin (who is surprisingly lightweight for his height), the Sedin brothers, Kane, and McDavid. St. Louis, Crosby, and Malkin are also the only repeat winners since Jagr.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Came across this TED talk that present some interesting things comparing current athletes with those of the past. They don't address hockey but the info the present is applicable to hockey.

Excellent data and approach touching various sports and eras.

Still the issue comes down to getting youngsters to train, to be athletic as a prerequisite to focusing on a specific sport.

From 2017 - Ottawa Senators assistant coach Chris Schwarz:

Senators strength coach alarmed over declining youth athletic skills

Where some of the data in the seminal video falls short is best exemplified in the Jesse Owens / Usain Bolt comparisons. Owens besides running the 100 and 200m as well as the relays like Bolt,also won Gold in the long jump. More athletic than Bolt.

This is where modern athletes often get left behind since too
many of their skills are one dimensional that are not adaptable.

The point about the somersault seems trite but a somersault or the ability to do one properly is a prerequisite to recovering once position and recognizing relative positioning after being knocked down or falling.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Excellent stuff.

Maybe a 24 year-old Gordie Howe actually could make a team in today's NHL.

 

[bobholly39]

The best example to take is Jesse Owens. He once held the world record for 100M track at 10.3 seconds. Usain Bolt now holds that at 9.58. So in almost a century we've come 0.7 seconds. That's it. But hold on, Owens had a different track, different shoes, etc. Andre De Grasse, Canada's best hope and quite possibly the best bet to take Bolt's place did a run that had Owens' shoes and track and did 11 seconds.

What I am trying to say is, sometimes we underrate the disadvantages of athletes back then. Which means are we THAT much faster than yesteryear?

Funny thing is I hit "like" on your post before i finished reading it to the end lol. I was agreeing with the first part....but I guess the second part makes sense too.

Bottom line is - athletes are faster, and hit harder, etc. How much of that is due to human being "physically" being superior vs due to training, or equipment, or ice surface, or whatever else....I don't know. I don't particularly care either to be honest.

I just know the game is faster and more skilled etc than it was in the past.

 

[VanIslander]

Excellent stuff.

Maybe a 24 year-old Gordie Howe actually could make a team in today's NHL.

Maybe?

Before the era of gym rats, he earned muscles the honest work way: summer jobs in construction.

205 lbs of muscle and skill.



Scotty Bowman went to games as a youngster and felt no one was close to Gordie Howe.

"He was a complete player. He had skill, he had strength, he had power, he was fearless and most people wouldn't even fool around with him... Gordie was as tough as there was. As prolific as there was... "

Bowman was impressed by his 20 years of top-5 NHL scoring.

Bowman coached the dynasty Habs and as coach of the Stanley Cup champions he got to pick all-star game participants to round out the roster and chose 52-year-old Hartford Whaler Howe and Gordie set up the game's winning goal.



Name an NHL team in any era that couldn't find room on at least their Bottom-6 for a Gordie Howe.

 

[VanIslander]

36-year-old Mike Gartner was clocked at the NHL all-star game with the fastest speed, and that record stood for two decades until 19-year-old Larkin beat it by a little.

Do you think Gartner wasn't faster when he was younger than 36? Yet that one all-star game he was clocked at such a speed that it took 20 years to be surpassed. I think a young Gartner in today's NHL would be unparalleled.

Note: Young Mitch Marner breaks "fast" into the offensive zone and yet when he "quickly" releases a shot, 38-year-old Marleau is already standing next to the net for the tap in. The play-by-play guy talks about how fast Marner was in transition but forgot to mention the wheels the old 6'2 tall guy did blazing effortlessly to the net.

I think there isn't a defenseman in the league today that would win the Norris in a league with a Bourque and Lidstrom.

I don't think we're living in the greatest era of skill or strength in terms of topend talent, though maybe in terms of overall average, as a below average player today can still skate and stickhandle better than many stay-at-home defensemen and goons of years gone by.

 

[Canadiens1958]

36-year-old Mike Gartner was clocked at the NHL all-star game with the fastest speed, and that record stood for two decades until 19-year-old Larkin beat it by a little.

Do you think Gartner wasn't faster when he was younger than 36? Yet that one all-star game he was clocked at such a speed that it took 20 years to be surpassed. I think a young Gartner in today's NHL would be unparalleled.

Note: Young Mitch Marner breaks "fast" into the offensive zone and yet when he "quickly" releases a shot, 38-year-old Marleau is already standing next to the net for the tap in. The play-by-play guy talks about how fast Marner was in transition but forgot to mention the wheels the old 6'2 tall guy did blazing effortlessly to the net.

I think there isn't a defenseman in the league today that would win the Norris in a league with a Bourque and Lidstrom.

I don't think we're living in the greatest era of skill or strength in terms of topend talent, though maybe in terms of overall average, as a below average player today can still skate and stickhandle better than many stay-at-home defensemen and goons of years gone by.

Usually a difference between the slower carrying the puck speed and the faster without the puck speed.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Maybe?

Before the era of gym rats, he earned muscles the honest work way: summer jobs in construction.

205 lbs of muscle and skill.



Scotty Bowman went to games as a youngster and felt no one was close to Gordie Howe.

"He was a complete player. He had skill, he had strength, he had power, he was fearless and most people wouldn't even fool around with him... Gordie was as tough as there was. As prolific as there was... "

Bowman was impressed by his 20 years of top-5 NHL scoring.

Bowman coached the dynasty Habs and as coach of the Stanley Cup champions he got to pick all-star game participants to round out the roster and chose 52-year-old Hartford Whaler Howe and Gordie set up the game's winning goal.



Name an NHL team in any era that couldn't find room on at least their Bottom-6 for a Gordie Howe.

My post was in jest.

I think an in-his-prime Gordie Howe is a top line player on every NHL roster ever.

 

[Troubadour]

It's obvious that players have not been getting bigger or stronger for the last twenty years. They sure got faster though. Equipment.

 

[SealsFan]

I don't think we're living in the greatest era of skill or strength in terms of topend talent, though maybe in terms of overall average, as a below average player today can still skate and stickhandle better than many stay-at-home defensemen and goons of years gone by.

Agreed, this is sort of what I was alluding to in another thread where I said I missed the 70's because of the extremes of good AND bad teams and players... across the board, on average, I think that the conditioning, skating and talent is higher than the previous couple of decades. Admittedly I barely follow the modern game but it seems like there are no goalies in the Gump Worsley mode, i.e. looking like some guy sitting on the bar stool at McGillicuddy's Pub, allergic to workouts... I wonder what Gumper thought of Arturs Irbe doing 200 situps after a game!... similarly are there any players in the Derek Sanderson/Don Murdoch mode, i.e. wild partying, hungover for game time, showing up in training camp 20 lbs overweight, etc. and still making the team?

 

[Big Phil]

Funny thing is I hit "like" on your post before i finished reading it to the end lol. I was agreeing with the first part....but I guess the second part makes sense too.

Bottom line is - athletes are faster, and hit harder, etc. How much of that is due to human being "physically" being superior vs due to training, or equipment, or ice surface, or whatever else....I don't know. I don't particularly care either to be honest.

I just know the game is faster and more skilled etc than it was in the past.

I think there is only so much you can do with the human body. With hockey they learned that a curved stick gives you a harder and more accurate shot. Imagine the Rocket with a curved stick? Skates are better than ever before. I think players in general are faster but the equipment we've used in the last 50 years has helped dramatically too.

The question is, just HOW much faster are they? And how much faster can they go? Look at Baseball, I think a guy like Aaron Judge is going to be a big-time power hitter for a long time. His home runs are of the tape measure type. But this isn't new. Mark McGwire and Jose Canseco hit those types of home runs too. Mickey Mantle was doing that 60 years ago too and it can be argued no one has ever had his power.

In the NFL the longest field goal (63 yards) from 1970 stood for a very long time until Matt Prater hit a 64 yarder in 2013. Three others were 63 yards as well in the last 20 years. Here is the kicker, Prater's kick, and two of the 63 yarders were at Mile High Stadium in Denver with the very high altitude and thin air. Tom Dempsey's kick in 1970 was in New Orleans. So let's put it this way, it took being in the thin air in Denver to beat a kick from 1970. So I think it is safe to say we've peaked when it comes to how strong our legs can be.

 

[Canadiens1958]

In the NFL the longest field goal (63 yards) from 1970 stood for a very long time until Matt Prater hit a 64 yarder in 2013. Three others were 63 yards as well in the last 20 years. Here is the kicker, Prater's kick, and two of the 63 yarders were at Mile High Stadium in Denver with the very high altitude and thin air. Tom Dempsey's kick in 1970 was in New Orleans. So let's put it this way, it took being in the thin air in Denver to beat a kick from 1970. So I think it is safe to say we've peaked when it comes to how strong our legs can be.

Nothing to do with leg strength:

Tom Dempsey - Wikipedia

Everything converged that day in 1970.

 

[psycat]

Not sure if it is best example the 100m but yes how little faster than Owens people got is a good example (at least for the elite specimen).

Maybe some other sport would benefit more with better training (more pro athlete that do only that), nutrition, etc... than something so pure explosion/genetic than what the 100m seem to be.

Runner used to that track/shoes were doing 11.x times in the heat:
Athletics at the 1936 Summer Olympics – Men's 100 metres - Wikipedia

Marathon for an other example:
Marathon world record progression - Wikipedia

Went from 3hours in 1908 to 2:25 in the 40s to almost just 2 hours.

Maybe it is a other sport that shoes has a great impact also too.

There is still many athletics record that are holding from the 60's to early 90s:
List of Olympic records in athletics - Wikipedia
List of world records in athletics - Wikipedia

Different anti-doping system and sport popularity changing I imagine but still.

Epo for marathon.

 

[MadLuke]

Epo for marathon.

Yeah should have add better enhancing drugs in that list of training, nutrition factor.

 

[authentic]

Excellent stuff.

Maybe a 24 year-old Gordie Howe actually could make a team in today's NHL.

Make it I wouldn't doubt, make it as a star straight from the 50s though? Not likely because a lot happened in 60+ years.

 

[authentic]

It's obvious that players have not been getting bigger or stronger for the last twenty years. They sure got faster though. Equipment.

On average. Top skaters have not changed since the 90s.

 

[Big Phil]

Nothing to do with leg strength:

Tom Dempsey - Wikipedia

Everything converged that day in 1970.

You mean because of his foot?

 

[Canadiens1958]

You mean because of his foot?

No. Circumstances from rules, to reliability, to last play of the game no other alternative.

Leg strength was never an issue. Even the recent kicks are last play of the half or game decisions. Otherwise a miss with time on the clock is very problematic.

 

[Big Phil]

No. Circumstances from rules, to reliability, to last play of the game no other alternative.

Leg strength was never an issue. Even the recent kicks are last play of the half or game decisions. Otherwise a miss with time on the clock is very problematic.

Well obviously. No coach is trying a field goal in the 1st quarter from 60+ yards out for the fun of it. They are all at crunch time while running out the clock. My point is, the leg can only kick a ball so far, and it isn't as if we're kicking 90 yard field goals today either.

 

[Killion]

You mean because of his foot?

.... I do believe thats what he's alluding to but only in part. Great comparative analogy from C58..... Dempsey as you know born without toes on his right foot (no fingers on his right hand either) and until then, kickers side-kicking the ball like in soccer. Dempsey introduced the straight on kick using a modified boot that many felt put him at an advantage, everyone else at a disadvantage. So his handicap turned into a positive with the innovative boot & approach to kicking the ball. It wasnt that he had greater leg strength, but the handicap combined with the equipment "advancement" (like with skates) an advantage.

 

[Big Phil]

.... I do believe thats what he's alluding to but only in part. Great comparative analogy from C58..... Dempsey as you know born without toes on his right foot (no fingers on his right hand either) and until then, kickers side-kicking the ball like in soccer. Dempsey introduced the straight on kick using a modified boot that many felt put him at an advantage, everyone else at a disadvantage. So his handicap turned into a positive with the innovative boot & approach to kicking the ball. It wasnt that he had greater leg strength, but the handicap combined with the equipment "advancement" (like with skates) an advantage.

Yet I think it was proven that this didn't help him or hurt him.