Anything Goes 30: Topicality Not Found

[LDF]

At the very least, the war in the Pacific.

yeah the turning point in europe was d-day.

has anyone really looked at the difference in what many thought of Russian battles...... they had more men and bigger battles than the allies.

 

[LDF]

Just hit post a bit too early.

k

 

[No Fun Shogun]

yeah the turning point in europe was d-day.

has anyone really looked at the difference in what many thought of Russian battles...... they had more men and bigger battles than the allies.

I wish we could take more credit for it, but the lion's share of the victory in Europe was due to the Soviets. The turning point of the war over there was the Soviet shattering of German offensive capability in 1943. We certainly contributed greatly to the victory in Europe, both in terms of supplies to the Soviets and retaking occupied territories and driving into Germany and Italy, but the shear scale of the Eastern Front just utterly dwarfed everything else. The vast majority of the German military was just poured into Russia and sank into oblivion.

 

[LDF]

I wish we could take more credit for it, but the lion's share of the victory in Europe was due to the Soviets. The turning point of the war over there was the Soviet shattering of German offensive capability in 1943. We certainly contributed greatly to the victory in Europe, both in terms of supplies to the Soviets and retaking occupied territories and driving into Germany and Italy, but the shear scale of the Eastern Front just utterly dwarfed everything else. The vast majority of the German military was just poured into Russia and sank into oblivion.

wow !!!!!

you are sooo right, yeah the US help the russian with material esp crossing the frozen lake, which was unheard of, to supply their arm from the East. great guts there.

yeah that was the height of American industrial might..... patton was right when he said that the US should continue to go east and fight the Russians. Truman was angry b/c England was ready and on the door steps of bankruptcy.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Eh, the British codenamed the proposed war against the Soviets "Operational Unthinkable" for a very good reason. The Soviet Red Army was just a juggernaut beyond anything we could've possibly matched in the 1940s.

 

[LDF]

Eh, the British codenamed the proposed war against the Soviets "Operational Unthinkable" for a very good reason. The Soviet Red Army was just a juggernaut beyond anything we could've possibly matched in the 1940s.

true, it was patton thinking that it would take a combo of the US, britian and think about this, the german tank division to take on the russian. this was before the failed "operation market garden".

 

[LDF]

another movie, more like a Doc movie, it is called "When the Lion Roared" it is very good. i recommend it to any. but i

 

[ChiHawks10]

From a policy standing perspective, I could understand underestimating the U.S. At that point, aside from relatively limited engagements versus a decayed Spanish Empire and a very poorly managed expeditionary force to Europe in WWI, our experience supporting massive armies and navies internationally was next to nothing. Meanwhile, Japan had a massive navy and a huge army of combat-hardened veterans. Their hope was that they could inflict such massive losses on the Pacific Fleet, take over such a huge swath of oceanic territory in the Pacific, and put the United States into a situation where a declaration of war would be a two ocean fight for us that the daunting task ahead of us would've been too great to even imagine.

That being said, once we started ramping up, the war was over for all intents and purposes in the Pacific.

WWII is an odd war in the sense that effectively the Axis had lost by 1943, but they were able to drag it on for another 2+ years.

A couple of factors played into them actually not causing the damage that they initially thought it would.

They never sent the third wave of attacks. This left many of the support buildings and land-based targets undamaged, and still able to service/recover much of the Pacific fleet in a more timely manner.
The carrier groups were out to sea, and the Japanese had no idea where they were.

There were a ton of risks associated with the Japanese sending a third wave, and it was a legitimate decision for them to withdraw their fleet, but if they hadn't withdrawn, and had sent the third wave, the Pacific fleet wouldn't have been able to resume any kind of war-time operations for at least a year, and the entire outlook of the war might have changed.

But the risk of the carrier groups returning to attack their fleet when they were ill-prepared to defend themselves, the risk of their planes having to land at night after a third wave(no real nighttime carrier-based operations had been done to that point, with the exception of the British RN, I believe.), the US was no longer caught by surprise, so their ability to defend had improved, as well as a possibility that the Japanese fleet was in range of US land-based bombers at that point, and their fuel was running too low to risk staying longer.
Instead, the US was able to raise, repair, salvage, etc. a lot of what was damaged that day in a much smaller window of time, and get it back in the fight.

 

[Easy E]

Semi-on topic, but I'm going to Hawaii in a few months and am really looking forward to seeing the USS Arizona and Missouri tours. Everything I've heard about it makes it seem like it'll be one of the more heartbreaking and awe-inspiring things you can see.

Hey! I posted a few days ago about taking a vacation in a few months and we wanted to go to the Caribbeans but Zika ruins it. That left us with Hawaii! Its going to be a shorter trip so we don't want to waste the time flying to Europe.

Unfortunately, Southwest doesn't plan on flying to Hawaii until 2018 Will have to use American probably. Time to churn a new CC.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

yeah the turning point in europe was d-day.

has anyone really looked at the difference in what many thought of Russian battles...... they had more men and bigger battles than the allies.

Turning point in war in Europe IMO was Kursk

It destroyed the offensive power of German army and permanently took initiative from Germans on Eastern Front

Also I have always felt that Normandy landings go hand in hand with Operation Bagration in significance and should be linked. Both occurred within weeks of each other and both strained and ultimately broke German armies in East and West

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

From a policy standing perspective, I could understand underestimating the U.S. At that point, aside from relatively limited engagements versus a decayed Spanish Empire and a very poorly managed expeditionary force to Europe in WWI, our experience supporting massive armies and navies internationally was next to nothing. Meanwhile, Japan had a massive navy and a huge army of combat-hardened veterans. Their hope was that they could inflict such massive losses on the Pacific Fleet, take over such a huge swath of oceanic territory in the Pacific, and put the United States into a situation where a declaration of war would be a two ocean fight for us that the daunting task ahead of us would've been too great to even imagine.

That being said, once we started ramping up, the war was over for all intents and purposes in the Pacific.

WWII is an odd war in the sense that effectively the Axis had lost by 1943, but they were able to drag it on for another 2+ years.

Japanese also made mistake of thinking that destruction of Pacific Fleet would have same effect that Battle of Tsushima had.

The annihilation of Russian Second Pacific Squadron and surrender of Third Pacific Squadron essentially broke the will of Russian people and government with regard to supporting war and crippled Russian Navy

 

[LDF]

A couple of factors played into them actually not causing the damage that they initially thought it would.

They never sent the third wave of attacks. This left many of the support buildings and land-based targets undamaged, and still able to service/recover much of the Pacific fleet in a more timely manner.
The carrier groups were out to sea, and the Japanese had no idea where they were.

There were a ton of risks associated with the Japanese sending a third wave, and it was a legitimate decision for them to withdraw their fleet, but if they hadn't withdrawn, and had sent the third wave, the Pacific fleet wouldn't have been able to resume any kind of war-time operations for at least a year, and the entire outlook of the war might have changed.

But the risk of the carrier groups returning to attack their fleet when they were ill-prepared to defend themselves, the risk of their planes having to land at night after a third wave(no real nighttime carrier-based operations had been done to that point, with the exception of the British RN, I believe.), the US was no longer caught by surprise, so their ability to defend had improved, as well as a possibility that the Japanese fleet was in range of US land-based bombers at that point, and their fuel was running too low to risk staying longer.
Instead, the US was able to raise, repair, salvage, etc. a lot of what was damaged that day in a much smaller window of time, and get it back in the fight.

excellent but another point that was always overlook was beside the pearl harbor attack, the japanese had other targets, the secondary targets, that was attack that day. plus there was always that internal fighting between the different captains ......

the main Admiral was soooooo disappointed that the US carrier group was not in the harbor at the time of the attack.

 

[LDF]

Turning point in war in Europe IMO was Kursk

It destroyed the offensive power of German army and permanently took initiative from Germans on Eastern Front

Also I have always felt that Normandy landings go hand in hand with Operation Bagration in significance and should be linked. Both occurred within weeks of each other and both strained and ultimately broke German armies in East and West

excellent, the battle of kursk was the russian turning point of the war and as you posted extremely important.

 

[LDF]

Japanese also made mistake of thinking that destruction of Pacific Fleet would have same effect that Battle of Tsushima had.

The annihilation of Russian Second Pacific Squadron and surrender of Third Pacific Squadron essentially broke the will of Russian people and government with regard to supporting war and crippled Russian Navy

the japanese completely underestimated the will of the US - Americans. but think of this at this point. how many countries were or could handle a huge war on 2 fronts ?? the atlantic and the pacific ??

not even the American thought it could be done. the US sent the Army and Air Force to europe and the Marines supported by Army supply group and the Navy to the pacific.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

US policy towards Japan and embargo made war unavoidable

The Japanese were never going to accept what was essentially a withdrawal to pre-Shanghai War 1932 borders/agreements

Japan had to decide if they were to be strangled into defeat by embargo or go on offensive with hope that they could seize/hold Southern Pacific before US could get to strong and with hope that Germans would eventually defeat UK

Everyone from Japan thru West thought the Germans would knock Russians out of war after those early months of German victories so the idea of a ultimate German victory in Europe to aid potentially in fight for Japanese was reasonable at time

 

[LDF]

US policy towards Japan and embargo made war unavoidable

The Japanese were never going to accept what was essentially a withdrawal to pre-Shanghai War 1932 borders/agreements

Japan had to decide if they were to be strangled into defeat by embargo or go on offensive with hope that they could seize/hold Southern Pacific before US could get to strong and with hope that Germans would eventually defeat UK

Everyone from Japan thru West thought the Germans would knock Russians out of war after those early months of German victories so the idea of a ultimate German victory in Europe to aid potentially in fight for Japanese was reasonable at time

true and what hilter thought that the japanese wouldn't be sooo dumb to attack the US in the pacific. hilter thought that eventually around the 1943-44, if America had stayed out of the war, then they, the germans could forced the Americans in a new treaty with the idea of preventing a war.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

the japanese completely underestimated the will of the US - Americans. but think of this at this point. how many countries were or could handle a huge war on 2 fronts ?? the atlantic and the pacific ??

not even the American thought it could be done. the US sent the Army and Air Force to europe and the Marines supported by Army supply group and the Navy to the pacific.

Yōsuke Matsuoka had a lot to do with the not understanding Americans part

Despite his time living in US he truly had no understanding of American society and public but convinced Army/Navy he was expert on matter because of his time in US

Oddly enough Matsuoka advocated for Japan attack on Russia after German invasion which proved unpopular in both Army/Navy circles. If that idea would have gained support then the attack on Pearl Harbor and Southern Pacific would have likely been delayed until some point in 1942 at earliest (If ever)

 

[LDF]

Yōsuke Matsuoka had a lot to do with the not understanding Americans part

Despite his time living in US he truly had no understanding of American society and public but convinced Army/Navy he was expert on matter because of his time in US

Oddly enough Matsuoka advocated for Japan attack on Russia after German invasion which proved unpopular in both Army/Navy circles. If that idea would have gained support then the attack on Pearl Harbor and Southern Pacific would have likely been delayed until some point in 1942 at earliest (If ever)

again excellent, i totally forgot about hilter idea of having japan attack russia. i still don't remember or know why japan never attack russia.

 

[LDF]

Eh, the British codenamed the proposed war against the Soviets "Operational Unthinkable" for a very good reason. The Soviet Red Army was just a juggernaut beyond anything we could've possibly matched in the 1940s.

i kinda of disagree. as patton wrote up, if i remember correctly he was all of the tanks taking the lead and have the Air Force bomb the crap behind the russian front line, something like, and i am guessing here, like 25 miles or so, esp in night time bombing. he thought the strength of the british and US bombers were unequal compared to no russian bombers.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

true and what hilter thought that the japanese wouldn't be sooo dumb to attack the US in the pacific. hilter thought that eventually around the 1943-44, if America had stayed out of the war, then they, the germans could forced the Americans in a new treaty with the idea of preventing a war.

Hitler did understand the reasons they went on offensive though and even celebrated news of attack “We can’t lose the war at all. We now have an ally which has never been conquered in 3,000 years,”

Hitler then made mistake of declaring war on US because he felt US would eventually declare war on Germany at some point and this would allow him to use unrestricted warfare thru Atlantic to try and strangle UK lifeline in 1942 (Donitz encouraged this view)

Its ironic that Japanese and German attitudes were essentially the same when it came to attack by each other on enemy states

Japanese would have preferred status quo of German/Russian pact staying intact while Germany would have preferred US staying out of WW2 as long as possible. But in end when both struck with full fury down upon enemies both received praise from other for action

Both Germany and Japan felt that longer they waited to attack the worse the situation would be down line in what they viewed as conflicts that were unavoidable

And its true Stalin and Soviets were already looking ahead to potential offensive operations against Germany in summer of 1942 when much of the new equipment then entering in 1941 like T-34 , KV-1 and new Monoplanes would have been widely available to Red Army and lessons of Finnish mistake were being studied and implemented

So if Germans don't attack in summer of 41 there is a possibility that a year from that day the Soviets would have been going on offensive. History could have been really different but you could find dozens of moments in history when things could change events drastically

And Japanese felt that if they didn't go on offensive against US and Southern Pacific that they would be defeated by embargo by late 1942

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

again excellent, i totally forgot about hilter idea of having japan attack russia. i still don't remember or know why japan never attack russia.

Japan defeats at hands of Soviets in late border conflicts of 1930's convinced them they didn't have army to match Soviets especially the increasingly powerful tank forces of Soviets

Also from logistical standpoint the resources they needed were well developed by Allies in Southern Europe and there for taking. The Soviet Far East much like today is under developed so from economic standpoint it didn't offer much benefit to Empire at time

Also the Navy which was prize jewel of Japanese military wouldn't have much of a role to play in campaign against Soviets considering piss poor shape the Soviet Pacific Fleet was in and how small it was at time as a mainly destroyer force

Japanese had supreme confidence in Japanese Navy and its tactics and felt they could fight US to at worst equal terms in a short term war. So this was much preferred over unknowns of war with Soviets

Early returns from fighting before Midway support this view of Japanese with regard to its naval capabilities and tactics. It was defeat at Midway which ultimately changed tide in Pacific

 

[LDF]

Hitler did understand the reasons they went on offensive though and even celebrated news of attack “We can’t lose the war at all. We now have an ally which has never been conquered in 3,000 years,”

Hitler then made mistake of declaring war on US because he felt US would eventually declare war on Germany at some point and this would allow him to use unrestricted warfare thru Atlantic to try and strangle UK lifeline in 1942 (Donitz encouraged this view)

Its ironic that Japanese and German attitudes were essentially the same when it came to attack by each other on enemy states

Japanese would have preferred status quo of German/Russian pact staying intact while Germany would have preferred US staying out of WW2 as long as possible. But in end when both struck with full fury down upon enemies both received praise from other for action

Both Germany and Japan felt that longer they waited to attack the worse the situation would be down line in what they viewed as conflicts that were unavoidable

And its true Stalin and Soviets were already looking ahead to potential offensive operations against Germany in summer of 1942 when much of the new equipment then entering in 1941 like T-34 , KV-1 and new Monoplanes would have been widely available to Red Army and lessons of Finnish mistake were being studied and implemented

So if Germans don't attack in summer of 41 there is a possibility that a year from that day the Soviets would have been going on offensive. History could have been really different but you could find dozens of moments in history when things could change events drastically

And Japanese felt that if they didn't go on offensive against US and Southern Pacific that they would be defeated by embargo by late 1942

i ahh kinda of remembered it differently. i remember that hilter was outrage that japan attack the US, he wanted the american out of it until 43 or 44. he really needed japan to attack an eastern attack on russia. japan didn't want to share the oil reserves with the germany

 

[LDF]

Japan defeats at hands of Soviets in late border conflicts of 1930's convinced them they didn't have army to match Soviets especially the increasingly powerful tank forces of Soviets

Also from logistical standpoint the resources they needed were well developed by Allies in Southern Europe and there for taking. The Soviet Far East much like today is under developed so from economic standpoint it didn't offer much benefit to Empire at time

Also the Navy which was prize jewel of Japanese military wouldn't have much of a role to play in campaign against Soviets considering piss poor shape the Soviet Pacific Fleet was in and how small it was at time as a mainly destroyer force

Japanese had supreme confidence in Japanese Navy and its tactics and felt they could fight US to at worst equal terms in a short term war. So this was much preferred over unknowns of war with Soviets

Early returns from fighting before Midway support this view of Japanese with regard to its naval capabilities and tactics. It was defeat at Midway which ultimately changed tide in Pacific

with most of this, i will respectfully do a push.

 

[hawksrule]

Seriously though, Saving Private Ryan > Band of Brothers by a hair

Not close. Private Ryan had a great first half hour but after was only okay.

 

[LDF]

Not close. Private Ryan had a great first half hour but after was only okay.

well at least i am not in this opinion by myself. i really hated the movie but that beginning was great.