Anyone changed their tune on hockey fights?

[Your Boy Troy]

Staged fights are fun. Well, I personally think that any type of hockey fight is entertaining.

 

[Sheppy]

Brian McGrattan is still the best fighter I have ever seen in person. Good lord.

 

[Rhodes 81]

I used to love fighting. Now, I'm not anti fighting by any means, but it just often seems kind of silly to me. fights right off of the faceoff really just serve to interrupt the game. The only fights that really jazz me up are in response to illegal hits and the like. I also hate whenever there's a fight after a clean hit. Fights should be reserved for responding to the other team taking liberties with your guys.

 

[Sheppy]

Sometimes hits happen so fast that players don't know if they're clean or not. If you see a player get laid out and is rocked, you're naturally going to go after someone with how quick the game is.

I welcome all fights, staged or not. Lets just say when a fight happens, I don't get up and leave the room...

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

It's complicated.

I'll watch any kind of fight - legit passion or staged. That doesn't mean I need or want them in my viewing experience.

I want staged fights gone. I don't need or want the league to eliminate heat-of-the moment fights - that said, something needs to be done about guys getting jumped after clean hits, and idiots coming in swinging after the goalie takes anything resembling a tap.

I think a lot of people are in the same boat, unfortunately a lot of people like to turn the whole debate into a ridiculous false dilemma, with "all fighting" and "no fighting" as the only two options.

 

[Sheppy]

I just think that the people who want fighting gone for the most part are fans who cheer for creampuff teams that get pushed around quite a bit. I know it's not the case for everyone, but it seems like a lot of the time that's the case.

Fighting should remain in the game as long as the players want it in the game.

 

[sandysan]

It's complicated.

I'll watch any kind of fight - legit passion or staged. That doesn't mean I need or want them in my viewing experience.

I want staged fights gone. I don't need or want the league to eliminate heat-of-the moment fights - that said, something needs to be done about guys getting jumped after clean hits, and idiots coming in swinging after the goalie takes anything resembling a tap.

I think a lot of people are in the same boat, unfortunately a lot of people like to turn the whole debate into a ridiculous false dilemma, with "all fighting" and "no fighting" as the only two options.

if you want "staged fights" gone would you be so kind as to actually define what a staged fight is ?

The back to back to backer between the bruis and the stars was the DIRECT RESULT of play the previous time the two met. The gaustead/lucic tilt was the DIRECT RESULT of lucic running Ryan miller. Had you not seen those precipitating events you could feel free to label both ( or techincally all 4) of those fights as "useless".
but if you actually new about those incidents ( very much like the players who were there) then the context IS there.

It always irk's me that people define staged fight as something that they dont understand why it happened. I'm not claiming to be omniscient but I dont think that ANYONE is aware of ALL the beefs between players and the extend to which they don't like each other. The context might be hidden from fans but it most certainly isnt hidden from the players.

And I've proposed this before ( to little effect) but let's drop the term staged and replace it with something far more properly descriptive, tactical fights. These fights are not the result of two guys deciding, " hey we only play 8 minutes so lets have a go and show up the guy behind the bench". An enforcer, no matter how much of a badass he is, who fights on his clock and not on the teams is not long for this league.

So if after a previous chippy game, or a particularly flat or chippy period the home coach decides to send out his toughie for his first minute of the game to line up directly across from the visitors 8 minute/game toughie, do you REALLY think that the coach is surprised that they drop the gloves and have a go ? the absurd reductionsists who argue that " fighting doesnt lead to more goals for or less goals against so its useless" miss the point. What they call " staged" are actually almost always tactical fights with the full implicit consent of the coach. You can argue that the coach is wrong, that there was no need to fight at that particular time, but the coach gets paid to make those decisions even when its not clear why ( like why deharnais gets so much 1st line ice time when a stiff breeze knocks him over).

I guess my beef is really that, like a lot of the game is really plastic. The people who claim " i dont understand the reason for the fight, therefore there must not be a reason for the fight, therefore its staged" are simply arguing from a position of ignorance. Why this seems so appealing is incomprehensible to me. I like the game, a lot. I've watched my fair share of games and there is within every game something that I dont understand. So I try to figure it out knowing full well that some decisions are really difficult to defend.

As to fights after big hits, and especially for guys " tapping the goalie" I'm all for it.
we have zapruter's here who can't agree after two weeks whether hit A is clean or not, but you expect the players to make this ascertation within a fraction of a second without ( often ) the benefit of replay ? I have no problem that if a toughie takes a good long run at talent ( or a veteran with leadership) and lays him out clean, I have ZERO problems with a guy sending a disincentive for a repeat. Because if guys can hide behind their unwillingness to fight on clean or borderline hits, its not a far way where players will do the same for dirty hits and the last thing the league needs is to have more players who think that can lay predatory ( +/- legal) hits with impunity and simply skate away.

 

[Sheppy]

I pretty much agree with all of that. ^

Those Dallas/Bruins games were ****ing awesome.

First game Ott was taking runs and turtling to Thornton, Ference leveled Ott, then Avery fought Ference. Later in the game Lucic was boarded from behind by Avery and the entire Bruins team jumped in for Lucic which sparked Hnidy kicking the crap out of Niskanen and Lucic going nuts trying to get at anyone. Thornton also fought Barch who decided to man up for his coward teammates.

Second Bruins/Dallas game the boys basically said "Lets get this out of our system early" they pretty much did, then Ference broke Burish's face later in the first.

These things carry over...

 

[Banana Sandwiches]

Love fighting, even the "staged" ones.

Don't plan on ever not liking fighting. Should that day ever come, I'll probably stop watching hockey to be honest.

Remember, a game can have a fight, but it may not even be the most violent part of that game.

 

[Verviticus]

rarely a fight can be really entertaining if the situation is just right, but thats maybe twice per season total (not per team). every other fight is outrageously boring and honestly a joke

 

[sandysan]

rarely a fight can be really entertaining if the situation is just right, but thats maybe twice per season total (not per team). every other fight is outrageously boring and honestly a joke

They don't and never will fight for your, mine, or anyone's entertainment. And if you think that it's "a joke" I postulate you've never dropped the gloves squared of face to face, and thrown.

Players on the fight because of happens on the ice. That you are not entertained, the players don't care. I've been in midnight beer leagues with more people on the benches than in the stands where guys settle up.

If two guys want to square off for ANY reason, that you wouldn't is not their concern.

 

[93LEAFS]

Can now see the game without it, no point in wasting a roster spot on a guy who is there for staged fights.

 

[systemsgo]

I love heat of the moment fights/fights after hits (both clean and dirty), and hate staged fights - with the exclusion of retaliatory fights. For example, Cooke had to go into the next Bruins game knowing he would have to drop his gloves with whoever the Bruins sent after the Savard hit, I'd say that was staged but also a good fight that needed to be had.

And I love when captains/star players get into fights, or when non-enforcer players willing fight the known good fighters in the league like EKane.

 

[adsfan]

Even more reason to dress a tougher line up. If you're a soft team this will likely happen to you.

Ever see the Chicago Wolves playing at the Milwaukee Admirals in the IHL or AHL?
I have seen plenty, up to 7 fights in a game.

Please take your "soft" BS to some other forum. The days of the "Slap Shot" knuckle draggers are just about gone.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

if you want "staged fights" gone would you be so kind as to actually define what a staged fight is ?

The back to back to backer between the bruis and the stars was the DIRECT RESULT of play the previous time the two met. The gaustead/lucic tilt was the DIRECT RESULT of lucic running Ryan miller. Had you not seen those precipitating events you could feel free to label both ( or techincally all 4) of those fights as "useless".
but if you actually new about those incidents ( very much like the players who were there) then the context IS there.

It always irk's me that people define staged fight as something that they dont understand why it happened. I'm not claiming to be omniscient but I dont think that ANYONE is aware of ALL the beefs between players and the extend to which they don't like each other. The context might be hidden from fans but it most certainly isnt hidden from the players.

And I've proposed this before ( to little effect) but let's drop the term staged and replace it with something far more properly descriptive, tactical fights. These fights are not the result of two guys deciding, " hey we only play 8 minutes so lets have a go and show up the guy behind the bench". An enforcer, no matter how much of a badass he is, who fights on his clock and not on the teams is not long for this league.

So if after a previous chippy game, or a particularly flat or chippy period the home coach decides to send out his toughie for his first minute of the game to line up directly across from the visitors 8 minute/game toughie, do you REALLY think that the coach is surprised that they drop the gloves and have a go ? the absurd reductionsists who argue that " fighting doesnt lead to more goals for or less goals against so its useless" miss the point. What they call " staged" are actually almost always tactical fights with the full implicit consent of the coach. You can argue that the coach is wrong, that there was no need to fight at that particular time, but the coach gets paid to make those decisions even when its not clear why ( like why deharnais gets so much 1st line ice time when a stiff breeze knocks him over).

I guess my beef is really that, like a lot of the game is really plastic. The people who claim " i dont understand the reason for the fight, therefore there must not be a reason for the fight, therefore its staged" are simply arguing from a position of ignorance. Why this seems so appealing is incomprehensible to me. I like the game, a lot. I've watched my fair share of games and there is within every game something that I dont understand. So I try to figure it out knowing full well that some decisions are really difficult to defend.

As to fights after big hits, and especially for guys " tapping the goalie" I'm all for it.
we have zapruter's here who can't agree after two weeks whether hit A is clean or not, but you expect the players to make this ascertation within a fraction of a second without ( often ) the benefit of replay ? I have no problem that if a toughie takes a good long run at talent ( or a veteran with leadership) and lays him out clean, I have ZERO problems with a guy sending a disincentive for a repeat. Because if guys can hide behind their unwillingness to fight on clean or borderline hits, its not a far way where players will do the same for dirty hits and the last thing the league needs is to have more players who think that can lay predatory ( +/- legal) hits with impunity and simply skate away.

Definitely some fair points, and I concede that my interpretation of a "staged fight" does not accommodate context, ie. previous incidents that have boiled over. I still think it's silly, though. I'm all for physically punishing for prior incidents, but I prefer to see it with good, solid bodychecks and if it escalates from there, so be it.

As for allowing fights after clean hits because "they can't be expected to know if the hit was clean or not", that's just stupid. If you didn't see the hit, or if you don't know if the hit was clean of not, it's not your place to jump in. Again, I'm all for returning a solid hit with a solid hit in these circumstances, but to jump in and start pounding away when you don't know what happened completely lacks integrity and discipline.

 

[sandysan]

Definitely some fair points, and I concede that my interpretation of a "staged fight" does not accommodate context, ie. previous incidents that have boiled over. I still think it's silly, though. I'm all for physically punishing for prior incidents, but I prefer to see it with good, solid bodychecks and if it escalates from there, so be it.

As for allowing fights after clean hits because "they can't be expected to know if the hit was clean or not", that's just stupid. If you didn't see the hit, or if you don't know if the hit was clean of not, it's not your place to jump in. Again, I'm all for returning a solid hit with a solid hit in these circumstances, but to jump in and start pounding away when you don't know what happened completely lacks integrity and discipline.

I'm sorry but if you are pugilisically inclined and an opponent of your skill set decides to exercise it on talent or leadership you are very much.mistaken that it's not your job to step in there. That IS precisely your job.

No one has to fear that David deharnais is going to lay someone out. But if a guy 6 inches talker and 40 pounds heavier tries to exploit this size difference by really trying to lay out either of them, you HAVE to send a message that it won't be tolerated. And in a split second decision anyone who fails to side with a teamate and wants to be neutral is, by definition, a bad teamate.

The little guys and the talent guys need to know that players won't be allowed to leverage their lack of physicality against them. If push comes to shove and they are alone they are screwed. If push comes to shove and they Know there is someone who has their back they get to continue to be talent guys.

if you don't want a true enforcer, fine. But there are lots of talent guts who lack of ability to defend themselves if I was left to them. Tons. If you want to get rid of the enforcers/toughies and go to a model where all players are responsible for their own protection ( the specialist vs generalist idea) then I lot of the little talent guys literally get run out of the league.

And people familiar with fights know it's not all Kimball within the PA. Both parros and prust had a real persistent beef with Radko Gudasf. If they got together it would be surprising if they didn't fight. Are those "staged" if an innocuous bump leads to the gloves coming off?

 

[Short Shorts]

Fighting has been completely banned in the NCAA and the game doesn't suffer any. The NHL could ban it tomorrow and it wouldn't make a noticeable difference on the quality or entertainment value of the game. Besides, there's plenty of hitting and contact during actual gameplay.

 

[sandysan]

Fighting has been completely banned in the NCAA and the game doesn't suffer any. The NHL could ban it tomorrow and it wouldn't make a noticeable difference on the quality or entertainment value of the game. Besides, there's plenty of hitting and contact during achatual gameplay.

Have you seen the loose stick work in the near? I guess going birdcage means you don't have to mind your stick, until you play with people not similarly equipped?

And he notion that the world's best league should model itself after the 5th rate, developmental league for kids is HEeee-larious.

 

[DJN21]

Love fighting, love staged fighting ad it builds anticipation for games...I'd hate if it were ever removed though it never will be...these guys will always fight rules or not

 

[Nordiques1979]

Im all about fighting, but no need enforcers /goons anymore. The game is getting faster, a guy like John Scott shouldnt be on any NHL rosters, guys like Roussel are the futur.

 

[sandysan]

Im all about fighting, but no need enforcers /goons anymore. The game is getting faster, a guy like John Scott shouldnt be on any NHL rosters, guys like Roussel are the futur.

Rats are are future? Geez John Scott might not be Uber skilled but it's the coach/gm's decision. We accept that the 4th line has a different set of skills than the first, that they bring a different skill set. Goons ( if they still exist) means you can ice small soft talent guys who on their own, would likely get run out of the league.

I've seen the consequences of a small soft team with no ( or little) beef. It ain't pretty. Push will come to shove do its either turtle or get handed your hat.

A league wit more roussel's is worse off in my opinion.

 

[Nordiques1979]

Rats are are future? Geez John Scott might not be Uber skilled but it's the coach/gm's decision. We accept that the 4th line has a different set of skills than the first, that they bring a different skill set. Goons ( if they still exist) means you can ice small soft talent guys who on their own, would likely get run out of the league.

I've seen the consequences of a small soft team with no ( or little) beef. It ain't pretty. Push will come to shove do its either turtle or get handed your hat.

A league wit more roussel's is worse off in my opinion.

Chicago had no beef, same for the rangers, the habs, detroit... Now the guy intimidating players and being the bad cop can also be a top notch scorers like Lucic, Byfuglien, Kreider...

 

[sandysan]

Chicago had no beef, same for the rangers, the habs, detroit... Now the guy intimidating players and being the bad cop can also be a top notch scorers like Lucic, Byfuglien, Kreider...

Keiser bad cop? Ha freaking ha.

And look.into supply and demand, guys who can play and fight are valued because they are rare, you can't pull out a Wayne Simmons out of a hat.

So based on looking at a marshmallow soft team and the unavailability of a toughie who can play, you have two choices. Go soft and hope for the best, or get a guy who plays sparingly but if things look like they are going south you can either throw him on the ice and things calm down or he precipitates a fight, and things stop escalating.

There are.lots of specialists ( non fighters) who get limited ice time. Some teams get face off guys with a pretty much singular skill. The Habs traded talent for dip who also has a very limited skill set ( fighting ain't one) because you want to minimize your weaknesses getting exploited.

 

[MMANumminen]

I like fights. Mma, boxing, k1, street fights, hockey fights you name it even animals fighting.

 

[Oak]

Get rid of the instigator rule and I'll be more into fighting.

I still like heat of the moment fights but you see guys turning down fights or clinching after a dirty play and nobody can do anything about it. Staged fights are stupid.